Hiding Evidence, or Thin-Skinned Administrators

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Senator Dzrekpo Amegnran, Aug 23, 2000.

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  1. Senator Dzrekpo Amegnran Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 3
    I know I speak for many folks when I say that, when trying to find Epic's thoughtful post in Communications this morning, I was miffed to find this message instead:

    "The message/s you requested could not be found or have been removed from our database. We apologize for the inconvenience."

    As an active participant in yesterday's scuffle over the "Deleted Threads and Banned Users" post in JC Community, I am incensed that threads related to that incident have been themselves deleted. To me, this smacks of "hiding evidence" and "covering your hind ends". There were worthwhile and well-thought-out discussions going on in both Epic's thread (in Communications) and in the original thread (in JC Community). Now, both are gone. Gone, but by no means forgotten.

    For those of you who might not remember, an Administrator started a thread in JC Community yesterday, intended to explain why threads had been deleted and/or users banned. A good idea, to be sure, and one that has worked successfully in the Episodes II and III (SA) Forum. However, this Administrator took things too far in making this statement after a few members posted questions:

    "If you continue to provoke me by posting here, I will ban you. That's it."

    This is, in my opinion, provocative behavior in itself, the cyber-equivalent of throwing a temper tantrum. The Admininstrator resorted to childish threats and hasty diatribes rather than rationally explaining the situation or answering members' questions in the first place. Basically, that Administrator said to us, "I didn't get my way, and so now I'm going to make you pay for it."

    This is no way to lead and moderate a discussion forum. I believe that the important words here are DISCUSSION and FORUM. This Administrator ignored and threatened action against DISCUSSION and, when things got hot, deleted the appropriate threads and, therefore, eliminated our FORUM for debate of this issue. Hiding evidence to be sure, but also taking the easy way out of the discussion by simply getting rid of it.

    "If you're not going to play the game MY way, I'm taking my ball and going home." *Stamps foot*

    This type of behavior is indicative of a tyrannical child rather than of an Administrator. It shows pompousness, closed-mindedness, inability to listen and no intention to discuss issues with members. It is unacceptable behavior from an Administrator. It may be a cliché, but "communication is a two-way street", and yesterday's proceedings seemed more like a dead end.

    To add to this, another Administrator jumped into the thread with these comments:

    "I can't believe how stupid the majority of you are. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is going to be to issue all of these bannings and repost this thread? DO NOT POST HERE. YOU ARE ALL IN A LOAD OF TROUBLE. Oh and epic, you may have a point there, but you are still really really unintelligent for posting in this thread instead of posting in Comm. or sending a PM about it. All this shows is that you like going against authority, or that you will do anything to prove your point. All of you, in fact.
    Don't be surprised if you recieve perm-bans and maybe even 24-hour bans to those who were just trying to help, but handled it COMPLETELY in the WRONG way."

    This rant may as well have been delivered as a King and Queen high on a balcony, speaking down to the peasantry. "Let them eat cake!"

    We have a couple of flames ("I can't believe how stupid the majority of you are" and "Oh and epic...you are still really really unintelligent"), more threats ("DO NOT POST HERE. YOU ARE ALL IN A LOAD OF TROUBLE.") and complete foolishness ("Don't be surprised if you recieve perm-bans and maybe even 24-hour bans to those who were just trying to help..."). Why, EVER, would someone trying to help get banned AT ALL?

    Answer: because the action went against the supreme will of these two Administrators. No questions asked, just "off with [the members'] heads".

    By the way, Private Messages (PMs) were sent to both of these Administrators (by several members
  2. OJSithLord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 1999
    star 4
  3. gundark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 1999
    star 4
  4. Sandfarmer IV Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 2
    Did someone mention pie?
  5. Sith Acolyte Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 1999
    star 2
    "It is far better to be feared than loved, for being loved you may still be betrayed, but being feared no one dares." -Machiavelli

    Good luck, Senator. I wonder how long this thread has...
  6. No blasters! Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    I wonder how long this thread will be "allowed" to remain?
  7. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5
    You have made very valid points Amegnran and I commend you for them. In the past two weeks I have been an adroit discussant in the whole issue and for the sake of clarity I will use some of the older points I made plus some new ones for good measure.

    That particular topic you are referring to was absolutely brilliant in the discussions it garnered from people who don't usually see eye to eye. Many good points were made including the realisation that although certain thread should indeed be deleted (for example last night there were five different threads on the new on location video and except for one, they were all rubbish) and that they should be communicated to the gereal JC populace in one admin only thread per each board.

    Nevertheless, the lack of leniency from many an administrator and moderator seems to be one of the chief problems there too. As I see it, and as you rightfully pointed out, many administrators act as the "agent provocatuer" of the boards through their utterly ridiculous decisions. Further their short sighted attitude toward stheir liberal deletions of threads are causing more trouble then they were set out to resolve in the first place.

    I brought this out with one particular admin in a similar thread of nest feathering and was replied by such a juvenile and immature attitude that I just can't be bothered to go back and argue my case against the person.

    What they don't realise is that their officious and pompous way of handling their duties is ruining this experience for everyone. We are all here to have fun, introducing rules and regulations to areas where none is needed sefies the purpose of not only these forums but the general idea behind the world wide web too.

    Most of the communications from "deletion prone" admins are disappointing to say the least. However they are of no surprise to come from individuals with such self-appreciation as themselves. This looks like it is going to be a long lasting problem and I am going to get as pedantic as possible to deal with it.
  8. dapper_bloke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 1999
    star 1
    once again it seems I am quoting guns by saying:

    :D

    I got my username back...!!! seems like my plea for mercy worked after all...

    this is truly a happy day (pity my plea thread got deleted of course, but one can't have everything can they...?)
  9. Jedi Knight Seyrah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 1999
    star 3
    Admins, this cannot continue. You can delete the thread, but the argument will come back. Again, and again, and again.

    There is no "clique" to blame this time. In fact, the good Senator and I typically fall on different sides of forum issues. And we are both, I think, pretty far removed from a lot of the people who were banned the other day.

    This is a FORUM issue. Not a private one. It's not yours to delete or sweep under the rug!!

    Demoting the admins in question is, unfortunately, the EASY solution. I would much prefer that they could LEARN from these goofs. Everyone makes mistakes. But you can't just apologize, or bow out -- you have to correct the problem. If my best friend lets me drive her car and I crash it repeatedly, trust me that an apology will not suffice!! She might forgive me, but the problem will not be solved until I a) make attempts to fix the damage and b) start driving more carefully!

    "You think the forum is there to provide you with power. I think that you exist to provide the forum members with freedom. And I'm going to make sure that they have it!"

    "FEAR will keep the locals in line."

    ?
  10. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    Thankyou for this, Senator, it is much needed. If the Administration think they can sweep all that has occured here under a rug, then they're wrong.

    I will quote my own post in the other thread, seeing it doesn't really belong where it is, and moreso fits here.

    This was my initial reaction upon finding out the thread had been deleted:

    -------------------------------------

    "I am upset about this. Very, very upset. I am so very tempted to say a lot of things that I will later regret, so I will refrain from doing so. I am just disappointed that this is the result of a lot of time and effort that went into that thread.

    If there was flaming in the thread, individual posts could have been deleted. The removal of the entire thread is by far the worst thing that could have happened. So much for freedom of speech, so much for EVER questioning an Admins decision, so much for providing ANY Communication between member and Admin, so much for caring about this place.

    I've had a lot of crap layed upon me in the last 24 hours, but obviously no one cares what anyone thinks any more. A leader listens to their people. The same SHOULD happen here, but it doesn't. I've lost all respect and time for the Administration, represented by only a small percentage of the actual body. It saddens me to say it.

    I put a lot of time into that thread, and despite what certain people have said, I was *only* looking out for the best interests of the JC. I've been called an asortment of names and have had to go through a lot of crap. This is close to being the final straw.

    I NEVER attacked ANY Administrator in the thread. I was offering CONSTRUCTIVE critisism. But no, no one understands this. It is just assumed I'm making trouble and bashing the Administrators in the hope I should be made one.

    This is complete and utter CRAP.

    To delete the thread, in the hope of shoving everything under the bed, will not work. It will only make things worse. The Administration obviously does not want to deal with situations that arise, or this would not have happened.

    This is the kind of action that drives people from the JC. I've never thought about leaving this place as much as I am right now."

    -------------------------------------

    I agree with everything you have said, SenatorDA. Perhaps finally it can be seen that this IS a serious issue, that needs specific attention, and perhaps finally certain Admins can realise that is isn't just myself and Padme Bra who are seemingly wanting to tear down the Admins, which, we are not. I speak for everyone, I'm sure, when I say that I'm ONLY looking out for the JC here, and the best interests of it's survival, and continued success.

    I hope the other Administrators, who have so far remained silient, can move to rectify this growing problem.

    And I also defend this threads right to be open for a public debate. One of the things that I have been told was that I should have kept things private between myself and the Administrator in question. However, this is more than a personal problem. As evidenced by this thread, this is a situation that invovles the entire forum.

    My confidence is in need of a shake-up. However, I still believe we can sort this out, and in the end, the JC *will* be better for it.


  11. No blasters! Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    Anytime these two disparate groups come together, the JC has a serious issue. And they're right, deleting this thread like you did the others (which people have copies of, btw), won't make this go away.
  12. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5
    Agreed. I have been banned once for using "wank" (a decision I still do not agree with as wank has been heard in American prime time - but that's a whole different story) and have never had a thread or post deleted. It is just a matter of principle that there must be a certain level of compromise which many of the "active" admins are lacking and will aim to achieve it even if their decisions usually affect posters that I do not agree with.
  13. No blasters! Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2000
    star 4
    Besides, epic, the PM doesn't work. I e-mailed one admin yesterday to try to offer constructive advice and it has been completely ignored.

    And where are the other admins?
  14. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6
    I'm right here. I'm listening. I'm at work right now, so I can't really touch base with the other admins, but believe me, I'm listening.

    I agree that this is a forum-wide issue, and not just a personal one. It is one that must be looked at, and discussed.

    Vertical
  15. Severian Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 1999
    star 3
    i haven't been posting here much, and honestly, i only read the threads that are linked at the SC, but anyway, what the hell is this crap? it seems to me that the whole problem could be solved in about two seconds of you just took the powers away from a couple fascistic admins
  16. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    *Thankyou*, Vertical. I appreciate it.
  17. Brando_Collrissian Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    I find it highly unusual for people that consider themselves to be right refusing to provide evidence or respond to criticisms leveled at their approach. And so far, everyone has been correct, this problem is not one they can ban away like they've done in the past, but must be dealt with in a timely manner with the support of both the other admins and the populace of the boards inhabitants.

    And what of the other admins? Are these two admins so powerful, their rage so righteous, or their cause so supreme that the others pay no attention to what is going on? Or is it perhaps they are allowing their comrades the luxury of haninging themselves out to dry with the embarrassment? Either way, I find it a chilling prospect that everyone in the forums has begun to band together, while it is only the two admins acting improperly.

  18. Senator Dzrekpo Amegnran Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 3
    Thanks Vert, thanks Epic, and thanks to everyone else for their support. As someone said before, whenever Cops, Slackers, Rebels, and members-at-large get together for something, you know that it's a worthwhile cause.

    If you know of others who might have something to add to this discussion, let them know about this thread!

    Thanks again, all, and let's keep this going!

  19. Jedi Knight Seyrah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 1999
    star 3
    Epic:

    For the record, I believe I have the contents of your thread in my history folder (it saves everything for the past two weeks, at the cost of a little cache space), on my home PC. I will be glad to retreive it for you, if you don't have a copy. Of course, I went to bed around midnight last night, so it might not be a COMPLETE copy.

    If THAT thread was deleted, what on earth is ALLOWED in this forum?!
  20. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Hi, I haven't stepped into the comm in a couple of days. I just have a couple of questions:

    1. What exactly was this thread? Does anyone have a copy for a repost?

    2. Who and Why did members get banned? Why did the administration want to stop the posting on the thread?

    3. Why are the names being withheld? To protect the administrators?

    Thanks
  21. JediMasterAlpha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 3
    VERY well said, SenatorDA. This CANNOT be allowed to be swept under the carpet again. This is the THIRD time the admin in question has resorted to mass bannings and threats, and the THIRD time that other admins have had to clean up after that crap. How many mistakes does it take? How many people have to be banned unfairly? How many people have to leave to JC before it's considered a problem?

    If anyone wants me to repost it, I have epic's entire thread, up until my response to Darth Ludicrous last night at aroud 12:00 midnight forum time, which I never saw a response from before it was deleted.

    "We will not go quietly into the night. We will not die without a fight..."
  22. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7
    Thanks Seyrah. I know that Mr K did not see the thread, so I'm sure he would be interested in seeing it for himself. I explained the story to him over ICQ, but seeing things for oneself is a much better prospect.

    And if in fact, you *do* have it, I wouldn't mind keeping it, just in case I need it. Thanks for that. :)

    And I agree about the different users here. Another comment I was told was that the only ones against what happened where a few outspoken SC'ers. This is, of course, definately not the case.

    I await to see the results of this thread, and the previous ones before it, with earnest.
  23. JediMasterAlpha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 1999
    star 3
    I'll be back in 10 minutes with the entire thread posted here.

    Mainly because I never saw any reply from DL, and I want a reply.
  24. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5
    I am pasting and reformatting a couple of my original communications with some admins from both my private meessage folder and from another public thread. For the sake of clarity, I am deleting the names of the admins though it is not rocket science to have a guess who they might be.

    I find certain admin's style of moderation overwhelmingly authoritative.

    I have been on these boards for more than two years now, visiting them regularly, and am sad to say that their qualities are yet to improve and they are yet to equal those of other "older" moderators and/or administrators.

    They seem to be deleting anything and everything on sight, with no consideration whatsoever, and dictating rules where there is none needed. Obviously having two threads on a major issue such as, say, (and to keep EII spoilers away I am using a CT reference) Luke's paternal relationship with Vader is ridiculous and such threads should be deleted.

    However, what is the point in deleting, for example, the official no problem on location thread, only to create another one afterwards. Then an admin introduced to us, his worthless minions, that once that thread was deleted, they statred another thread on the same issue but just named it official and said that certain discussion should not take place therein.

    And what if they did? What if people wanted to talk about both a technical hitch they had and then went on to mention an interesting background they saw in the feature itself?"

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    The following from some private points I made to another admin.

    The board needs to be a little bit more relaxed. Except for obviously redundant threads and completely out of order comments, I suggest that you wait for threads to wait around a bit. See if they get enough replies that lead to a discussion. If this discussion is already being covered somewhere than copy the ideas from the recent one, paste them into the busier thread and delete the other. Similarly, if a thread is not getting enough replies (anythingless than 10 I would say) from a wide group or if the initial question is answered, then delete that thread as well.

    In my humble opinion, you guys need to relax a bit more. I can imagine how demanding your job is but come on, we are all here to have some fun!
  25. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    There were exactly 3 outspoken SC'ers in that original thread. Everyone else were regular, normally uninvolved JC'rs.

    Allow me to state for the record once again that I didn't make ONE single post during this incident. I only posted after seeing what went on afterwards and receiving PMs from other members.

    If you can post epic's deleted thread it would help shed light on a lot of this since I was one of maybe 4 people who even saw it at the end.
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