PT Historical references in the prequels

I say that because it's a lot of opinion other than from Lucas himself. And what he says (and it's not really clear in some of those blurbs which are his words) doesnt contradict that a contemporary critique was in his mind. The idea that when making the PT the wheels had been set in motion before 9/11 and they were just going through the mindless motions for 2 movies is extremely hard to believe.

I concede to your point that the broad themes were largely pre-conceived and possibly even trump the contemporary critiques, but I just cannot believe that Lucas was not fully conscious of the inescapable history that he was living through while making those movies. Lucas didnt stop being a 'student of history' on 9/11.. yet the implication that the PT is Apolitical in the contemporary sense would necessarily require a monumental political and historical ignorance

Im pretty confident that your posts comfortably fall into the parameters of the thread topic.

 

He explicitly says it was not on his mind. Others that worked with him and knew him said it was not on his mind. And when his work resembles what's going on, he responds with surprise and unease. Certainly that would indicate something, hmm? Also, I have to wonder if you are clear what kind of filmmaker Lucas is. He's not Oliver Stone. 'Going through the motions for two movies' = ? He had a story, and he delivered the story. Just because he's not referencing everything current around him doesn't mean he's going through the motions. There are other ways to be creative without being an active commentary on surrounding events. As much as I respect Lucas, it's clear the guy sort of lives in his bubble. I like his bubble, don't get wrong, but it certainly does not strain credulity to say that he's not going outside of his bubble here. It is not hard to believe whatsoever. He's writing based on things that have happened already; not things that are already happening. And by the time the prequels are conceived and laid out in the 90s, Bush wasn't even elected yet. There's no reason to change your story just because events around you change.

He was probably aware of what was going on around him, but he was focused on the story that he was telling. Judging by Lucas' own influences and his own statements, its likely he would just interpret any similarities as just a testament to how universal his story is. This isn't especially hard to believe judging by how Lucas looks for universals in everything, ie. the work of Joseph Campbell.

 

He doesnt have to be Oliver Stone to have a rudimentary awareness of contemporary context.. and even if he didnt, nobody else involved with making ROTS could have possibly foreseen how Anakin's line would be perceived? Really?

 

This was already covered in those articles, though. The quotes address these exact concerns. He and his team were asked if they based that line on current events. They said no. They asked if they could see parallels, and they said yes, going on to say that knew it could be seen that way but they weren't going for that. Certainly Lucas was drawing on other things as he has directly stated.

 

Wow I didn't know that Lucas was anthropologist. Well, I was sure that he is very well educated humanitarian, but this was just a suggestion, now I see it proved.
Big_Benn_Klingon I think that PT are more European that you think. I not that I want to start some stupid geographically-political argument, is just the fact that some events and ideas are too old and also the history repeats itself,. I mean that many of the contemporary American concepts are not original at all. The idea of the new order of Bush. Pff, it was idea of Hitler (and not only, but it is the closer event). Divide et impere: an old Roman principle , hugely used during the British hegemony.. well of the Western World. ( in SW is used by Palpatine, of course). So I'm sure Lucas put a contemporary political message in the PT but there were and older allusions also.

 

Thanks for posting this interesting videos!

 

I'm glad you found them interesting!

 

Yes, I saw that hodgepodge patchwork of quotes blurb.. but Im not buying the 'oh mercy me, we just neva thought of such a thing'.. or is it "we just made some wacky political parody of a guy". Lucas himself simply states that he wasnt aware when he wrote Padme's line it would come so true (which was supposedly in the 90s), but nothing about when he actually made the movie... by which time it was excruciatingly clear that it had. If anything his statement feels like a bit of wink.

High school history class cliches tied together with some kind of unnecessary euro-arrogance.

 

And talking about older historical references I would add the practically medieval style of the dialogue. I'm almost sure that this is one of the main reasons to like the PT and to hate it in the same time. It so old style, almost as is in the knight novels. And not only for "mylady" and "my master" , but also the relations between the foes. As for example the scene in Geanosis: 'Master Windu, you fought bravely, surrender and your life would be spared'. Noble, old fashioned and fascinating. Yes the prequels describe those old golden times of the Galaxy when even the enemies look to each other with respect.

Also, something more that is not exactly historical reference, but is related to the topic: in IMDB there was a discussion how is possible that the Geanosian invented the Death Star, they are form the stone age. Well, I would say that the Geanosian are just old-fashioned, that's all. They have very modern droid industrial plants, they build weapons but they have old style architecture and they like the old style shows even the executions are old style. I don't know the reference of Geanosis ( I mean, I'm sure that Naboo is the Mediterranean are of the Galaxy, even I could say Italy) . I don't recognize Geanosis, but its double-sided culture is so European: Europe is highly developed, but so, so old fashioned place ( I like that). So one more cultural reference in the PT: hated by many, but I like it.

 

The Geonosians did design the Death Star. It's actually in AOTC, and several other places in the old EU and new canon.

 

Well, if you don't trust my 'hodgepodge patchwork' I will just have to link you. But let me ask you this. Who do you think I'm more tempted to believe on the origins of a work -- the actual creators of the work of art, or a random viewer of it? I'll let you decide.

And considering a significant portion of Anakin's and Padme's romance is based on European romance, Camelot, and Shakespeare, as well as older films from the 30s-50s, I don't find it hard to believe at all that these films are more Euro-centric in some respects. I agree with Tonyg. In fact, I would think that's more likely the case, and it shows; they have always played better in Europe than here. Are there ingredients of America in there? Yes. Of the contemporary political climate though? I doubt there's very much. At most, there's a little. Why would there have to be more? These themes are timeless. What we are going through now is not unique. It has happened again and again throughout history. But I will let the creators speak for themselves. I didn't manipulate what they said or pull it out of thin air. And they have no reason to lie. I think they are honest about what they are saying here, and all the better for it.

Most of the quotes come from the Cannes Festival premiere of ROTS.
Links:
`Star Wars' inadvertently hits too close to U.S.'s role
Sci-fi themes hit closer to home: George Lucas says 'Sith's' echoes of Bush-era politics is intriguing but just a coincidence
'Sith' Invites Bush Comparisons
The Empire Strikes Bush
Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones -- Wikiquote
George Lucas and Kathleen Kennedy: Reflecting on the Star Wars Phenomenon

 

Is not arrogance, it just a fact. I will give some Oriental example especially for you, to assure you that it has nothing to do with any European arrogance. The sultans of the Ottoman Empire know very well that if there is a enemy outside so their power will be practically unbreakable inside. All the aspirants for the power, all the discontent foes inside would unite to fight against the enemy outside. And of course will gain a good booty, . So the Empire was invincible till its big losses, mostly in Viena and Lepanto in the beginning of the 18th century. And yes, surprise, the same principle is used by Palpatine in AOTC but not only by him. It is used by most Empires during the human history. So is this Asian arrogance? I sense that you are trying to start some patriotic discussion here and this wasn’t my point. I just admire the fact that Lucas included the huge range of ideas an historical references of Lucas, that are not taken only of the history of his native country, that's all. So I apologize if I offended you, but that wasn't my point at all. I would be glad to see more people to discuss about the Japanese references: unfortunately I don't know much about Japan, but I know that Lucas is a big fan and he included not the kabuki makeup and the katana-like sabers but many more details of the Eastern cultures.

 

I see USA mostly in the OT in the sense that all there are more pragmatic, modern, fast paced and how to say it, contemporary (it has nothing to do with the “used style”, I talk about communication and the relations between people). And why should this be a bad thing? It is just different sense, that's all. I would say in OT the Emperor and Vader look as strange relicts of some gone past, they look even funny talking like that: ‘I found your lack of faith disturbing’. Man, who could even say it in that way? This is Victorian, even medieval style of communication.

 

Four of these are about the same quote, one is somebody else's opinion and one is a video discussing vague generalities. At no point is any insight given to what anybody was thinking about when they actually making the movies during the period of 2001-2005. As I said before I concede that Lucas didnt have the post-9/11 era in mind when he wrote them, but this doesnt actually answer any questions about why they did what they did when they actually made the movies. A few tiny tweaks made to a few lines here and there would have eliminated any debate about contemporary politics... yet they chose not to.

Altho im not sure what's inherently euro-centric about "older films from the 30s-50s", this is a discussion i have no interest in. The OT is American and the PT is Euro-centric? uh ok..

Im not American. I just dont find broad generalizations about cultures particularly true, let alone useful

 

Well, I wouldn't argue because is not the point of the topic, but sometimes generalizations are useful. Of course, I could be more detailed when I said European, because my country (is in Eastern Europe) is very different to France, but anyway as cultures we share something very common and it is the attitude to the past. We live connected to it, even say romanticizing it. So, it is fair generalization… Liked or not, many cultures (and they are in fact connected with political and historical frontiers) share common issues and Lucas as anthropologist knows that and shows that in the movies. If it wasn't that way, we couldn't make that tread at all, because only few of us could recognize some references, related to political details in only one country (or region).

 

To clarify I didn't deny that Lucas may have had Bush in mind when he made the film but personally I relate it more to the Weimar Republic because I am such a history geek. And he may have added dialogue that referenced Bush but its obvious that Lucas had this plot lined out even before Bush took office so even if there was some influence it was small like in the dialogue. Regardless of where he got the idea that's up to Lucas alone. Even still I think its great that we can all see similarities to our own world through the setting and story. And honestly if the PT had better characterization like TFA I feel that it could have been better than the OT just because it had a really good overarching theme.

 

This isn't a direct response to anyone here, but I did find this after some rummaging and I thought it was a really nice quote that relates to some of what's been discussed in this thread. It's from a great interview in 2005 that I don't see getting a lot of play anywhere on here. The last answer from Lucas is especially relevant to this discussion.

Interviewer: When you're in there creating the nitty-gritty of the "Star Wars" universe, figuring out how an inhabitant of a given planet might evolve a given way, do you feel like you're playing god?

George Lucas: Well, I started out in anthropology, so to me how society works, how people put themselves together and make things work, has always been a big interest. Which is where mythology comes from, where religion comes from, where social structure comes from. Why are these things created? Now we're getting into more of the social sciences side of the things, but the biological side is starting to float into that. I'm looking forward to the evolution of neuro-anthropology, because I want to see our genes affect how we build our social systems, how we develop our belief systems in terms of our social beliefs and cultural beliefs. We're at an exciting time.

Interviewer: Does your penchant for painting detailed pictures of entire societies come from these interests?

George Lucas: Yes. Also, I love history, so while the psychological basis of "Star Wars" is mythological, the political and social bases are historical. I like to take things and strip them down, then use the model and build a different story on it. You can put in a motif of Saturday-afternoon serials to make it relevant to kids of today, but the political situation of the Empire and the Republic -- that's a scenario that's been played out thousands of times over the years and that never seems to change much. I had an interesting discussion when I was doing publicity in Europe for the final "Star Wars" movie. I was sitting around with a dozen reporters, and the Russian correspondents all thought the film was about Russian politics, and the Americans all thought it was about Bush. And I said, "Well, it's really based on Rome. And on the French Revolution and Bonaparte." It's shocking that these things get repeated through history. The same mistakes get made and the tension between democracy and tyranny is always the same. And we haven't figured out any way around it.

 

I would liken the Geonosians to the Kyber Pass region of Afghanistan. They produce a local copy of a weapon system with a few minor changes (Baktoid battle droids/Martini, Lee-Enfield, and AK rifles respectively) in primitive caves and huts. The Geonosians are much more advanced technologically, but I think they are behind the rest of the galaxy, although they have a few brilliant minds (likely why they designed but didn't build the Death Star). Their fighter craft are not shown to have a hyperdrive, and while they do ok against LAATs, we can liken this to a hypothetical Mi-24 "Hind" vs P-51 match up. While one is much newer and laden with modern weapons, it's oriented towards a different mission and most of its armament is useless against another aircraft, and would fall victim to the older aircraft in a fight. The only interstellar craft we see from them uses outdated propulsion (solar sail). Their warriors are armed with what is essentially a shotgun, not unlike many tribal peoples were up until the ubiquitous AK filtered down.

 

Very interesting approach!

 

Yes, we commented that in many posts here

 

I recall that Lucas compared Palpatine to Julius Caesar, Napoleon, and Hitler.

Sidious Palpatine is like a combination of both Gaius Julius Caesar and Octavian/Augustus Caesar in many ways. The name Palpatine probably is a reference to the Palatine Hill in Rome.

 

I can't be the only one who wanted more samurai-inspired Jedi?

 

It depends what you mean by samurai -inspired. I'm not exactly specialist on samurai, but I know is that they were totally obedient to their masters. And I don't like that so much. Because totally obedient includes massacres and tortures to the enemy. The Jedi are Jedi knights and this is not a randomly chosen name. They follow the knight code: they must be noble, loyal, merciful.

 

Yes, you are completely right, what I mean is that some people, seeing how old fashioned the Geonosians are, think that they are not developed; that they live in the stone age. It is not like that at all. The Geonosians just like they old customs and traditions (the arena executions are almost like gladiators' fights) the architecture have some almost gothic form) may be they are tough hard aliens, but aren't low developed at all. So, one world could be old fashioned and high developed, even in Earth there countries that are exactly of that type.

 

I'm not an expert on samurai rules and such, but I always figured they more inspired by them rather than knights - The robes, the kendo, Vader's outfit... I was thinking they would have a less technology based temple and overall just a samurai look I guess.