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PT Historical references in the prequels

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Tonyg, Jan 26, 2016.

  1. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016

    Yes, we discussed that earlier in the tread: the Eastern impact is more in the look of the characters, than in the culture of the PT world. Queen Amidala (when was queen) also wears outfit and makeup that looks Japanese but that is only one element, because generally the world of Naboo looks mostly Mediterranean.
     
  2. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016

    P.S. Also, as maybe you know Vader is wearing classical samurai helmet. So, if "the bad guy" looks so samurai-like they couldn't use this outfit for the Jedi, too. Yes, the lightsabers are katana-like (both for Jedi and Sith) but in different colors.
     
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  3. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 6, 2015
    But samurais used robes too, no? They looked very much like the Jedi robes, while Vader's suit looked like samurai armor.
     
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  4. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016

    Well, yes, their kimono could be defined as some kind of robe, but is different. Those robes of the Jedi look for me as monk robes, because of the hood. We already discussed the obvious similarities between them and the Knights Templar Order and I think Lucas intentionally made the robes that way (the same as in OT): they look like monks because they should live such humble and ascetic life.
     
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  5. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 6, 2015
    Apart from the hood, the similarities are very clear...
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Well, look here at this classical Catholic monk robe. Except the "belt" (it is not belt, but anyway) the Jedi robe is the same: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b6BlhoY3L._UL1500_.jpg
     
  7. 11-4D

    11-4D Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 6, 2015
    It's not though, the one I posted looks much more like a Jedi robe.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  8. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016

    Apart from the hood, the sleeves are very large and the Jedi usually wear them as the monk from the picture. And the kimono sleeves should be short, because he must fight with that outfit. For the Jedi this is not a warrior outfit, is their "peaceful" outfit, as is here. http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/4200000/Qui-Gon-Jinn-qui-gon-jinn-4211476-384-600.jpg But for me this sense come mostly from the posture, than from the proper design of outfit.
     
  9. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Also I would add one more reference, that is not exactly historical, but is related to that: the western-type of dialogue. In the westerns the dialogue is always short and dense, it 'talks" to the viewer only as composition: between the words, the facial expressions, the landscape and the music. And this is something that we can see in all the 6 episodes, it is a film technique, I think. But in PT is a little different. Lucas continue to use this technique, but the style of the dialogue is more medieval, old fashioned, maybe for some it looks pretentious and snobbish. This is my explanation why many people says that the dialogue of PT is bad (when Lucas use the same technique of the dense short lines, used in the OT), but in PT the dialogue is too old fashioned. For me this is one of the good qualities of the movies, but for others maybe is bad thing.
     
  10. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
  11. Antpocalypse

    Antpocalypse Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 26, 2016
    Going purely on visual feedback, it's hard to argue those aren't the same. Look quite similar to me.

    EDIT: Really though, it seems more like the Jedi robes are a perfect amalgam of the Japanese robes and European monk robes.

    So I guess both Tonyg and 11-4D are right.
     
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  12. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    I would ad one more political reference. Darth Nerdling in another tread discussed the problem if Mace is a traitor because tried to arrest (and after that also tried to execute) Palpatine. Another historical reference, which I would call Oliver Cromwell problem. (Mace couldn't make it, but the situation is very similar). Cromwell practically takes the responsibility for the execution of the king, but no matter that many people also agreed with that after his death Cromwell is accused to be the king's killer, i.e. he committed crime to the state itself, interrupting the divine right of the king to rule the country. So, what is doing Mace? He said that the Jedi Order serve to the Senate, but practically they receive their orders directly form the Chancellor and the Chancellor is the Chief of the Senate also. So, technically we have two problems: if they are against the Chancellor and the Senate support him, so they are against the state (as Oliver Cromwell) and also they are against the Chancellor from whom they receive orders, so this is also something like mutiny. Practically, is all the opposite, of course, practically with this act 'on the edge" of the of law Mace is trying to protect the Republic and the Jedi Order but exactly for those "details" Palpatine (after Mace is killed) succeeds to persuade the Senate that the Jedi are the bad guys.
    Interesting question to discuss will be what would happen if Mace succeeded to arrest the Chancellor. Could the Senate accuse Palpatine for treason or something like that? I guess no, it just will produce chaos, civil war (out of the separatist problems) and will end to the fail of Jedi Order, Palpatine come back triumphal in Coruscant and the happy crowd listening the inauguration of the new Empire.
     
  13. Thorin Oakenshield

    Thorin Oakenshield Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 9, 2016
    It has always been a thrill to me to see two smart people engage in a heated and passionate debate about something and then show respect to each other when all is said and done. well done to both of you
     
  14. Thorin Oakenshield

    Thorin Oakenshield Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 9, 2016
    WOw. You are right. But the real question is what would have happened if Mace had KILLED Palpatine? What evidence could the Jedi present to the Senate that Palpatine was evil. They only had Anakins words really. Hardly enough to kill the emperor. I think Palpatine really was in control before Mace attacked. Whether he lived or died the Jedi would fall. The only problem for Palps was if he was arrested. But he probably have commited suicide
     
  15. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Interesting approach. What I think is that no matter what will happen in both cases ( Mace killing Palpatine and Mace arresting him), all will end in the same way: unrest, civil war and total triumph of the Empire. Why? Because Palpatine is not the problem of the Republic, he is just the person who succeed, first to accelerate of course, but second, to use the opportunity of one already weak Galactic Republic, Republic that will enter in crisis sooner or later. We see that still in Phantom Menace, Naboo is under blockade and the Senate cannot do anything. So if the Senate is incapable to make such important decision (without Palpatine) what will happen? Well, unrest, internal crisis, also not forget that they still have the Clone wars; the Republic will need someone to save ot of its own, and here will came again the hero Palpatine (something similar happened in France with general de Gaulle in the 50ties. I'm not saying that Palpatine is de Gaulle, just the situation was similar).If Mace has killed Palpatine, would be even worse: sooner or later the Jedi will be accused that they betrayed the Republic, they killed its skilled leader so the separatist maybe will win the war, etc.etc.
    That’s why Isaid that the Galactic Republic reminds me of the European Union (where I live): same problems, similar separatist tendencies, political and leader crisis, etc.


    By the way, amazing nickname. I like this tragic hero, as is presented in the movie. :)
     
  16. Thorin Oakenshield

    Thorin Oakenshield Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 9, 2016
    Yes it would be a very interesting alternative story, finding out what would happen to the republic if palpatine had been killed. Surely it would have led to the confederacy winning the clone war because of the political problems between the senate and jedi. I can see a situation where the confederacy offer jedi safe sanctuary if the republic turned on them and the jedi eventually leading a war against the republic senate because of the supposed corruption. with Anakin leading the defense of the republic because of his allegiance to the republic and to Padme
     
  17. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016

    But that is also bad option, because Anakin could be seduced by the possibility of being Emperor himself (as remarkable leader of the Defense). Better option will be if Anakin and Padme, both already with too much doubts and disappointments of the Republic and the Jedi Order, just to go away and live happy. But I'm afraid that none of them could do that if there is war out there.
     
  18. Thorin Oakenshield

    Thorin Oakenshield Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 9, 2016
    Okay here is my theory. Mace kills Palpatine. He tries to to take control over the senate but does not realise how deeply the corruption runs in the senate. The senate would turn on the Jedi Council and call them traitors forcing the council members to flee. Obviously with palpatine and dooku dead no-one would know about Order 66 so their would be no mass killing of jedi. Instead the jedi generals would be told to return Corucant to answer the senate if they stand with the Jedi Council or not. I can imagine Obi Wan siding with the council but Anakin going against the council meaning anakin is sent out to the frontline to continue the war effort against the seperatists. The confederacy would take advantage of the turmoil agmong the senate and jedi and start to turn the tide in the war. The jedi council members who fled the republic such as Mace and Plo Koon would end up siding with the seperatists, having seen how deep the corruption runs in the senate. The republic need a new leader. Some one who they can trust to take up the emergency power that was granted to palpatine and hand it back when the war is done. So they elect Padme . She makes Anakin the Defender of the Republic. Anakin gains the power and status he craves and goes to war against the confedacy now being led by Mace Windu. I think that sounds kinda cool. I do not know who would win the war. But I do know that it would go on for a lot longer. If the confedacy wins i can see the Jedi eventually take control of the galaxy and completly forget their own moral code. If the republic wins I can see Padme and Anakin having conflict, with Padme telling him to surrender control of his massive clone army but Anakin refusing eventually overthrowing his wife and declaring himself emperor of the galaxy.
     
  19. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Well, I think that Anakin would prefer to cut himself the other hand and jump in the volcano of Mustafar instead of do consciously something against Padme. And when I say consciously I mean that what happened in ROTS was not intentional, it was emotional consequence of the moment and he obviously was devastated after that.
    So Anakin would never turn intentionally towards Padme. An also, I doubt that she will turn against him: we already know what happened when someone said to Padme that Anakin is not already the person that she know: Padme simply didn't believe him. So part of their Shakesparean tragedy is that they really love each other.
    Also I doubt that Padme would accept to be leader of the Republic: first she already has doubts if the Republic is not turning in something that nobody like and wants, second, because I think she is one of the few persons in the Senate that really know how dangerous is to be a single leader (she was once that now she prefers the community, no matter how ineffective it is). And last, but not least, she is pregnant. I think that the maternity is more important to her than everything.
     
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  20. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    P.S. This could be very realistic approach id they weren't Anakin and Padme. It already happened in the real world, but with persons, too obsessed with power.
    So I think this is a great hypothesis, but maybe we should refer to more career oriented persons.
     
  21. Thorin Oakenshield

    Thorin Oakenshield Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 9, 2016
    All very good points. I completely forgot about Padme being pregnant! But I think you underestimate Padme's sense of duty. If someone put her name forward and everybody voted for her I can see her , albeit reluctantly accepting the position. Would she really leave the republic to rot and die? And she did accept a queen-hood at 14 for similar reasons. Anakin loves Padme but his lust for power has grown strong. I believe Padme is one of th most honest characters in Star Wars. If the war was won she would transit power back to the people. Anakin would not give up his power so lightly. Giving things up is not in his nature. I think this could lead to conflict between the two.Anakin loves Padme but he loved Obi-Wan too. I think conflict is in Anakins blood. He would find a way to justify his actions.
     
  22. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    Now, Thorin Oakenshield, I'll change a point a little bit from hypothetical to real. This comes form another thread, but is interesting to discuss it here: when is Darth Vader born? I think he becomes to take flesh when he received his name. In many cultures this coincides with the real birth of the person. It reminds me also the great saga of Ursula Le Guin, Earthsea, where the characters received their true names in the beginning of their adolescence. Well, with Darth Vader was different because he needed to be transformed, because Anakin himself would never serve to the Dark side, but after receiving the name was different. And people said that the transformation is rushed and simplistic, yeah, sure. I'm afraid Lucas overestimates the powers of the fandom ;)
     
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  23. Thorin Oakenshield

    Thorin Oakenshield Jedi Knight star 3

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    Feb 9, 2016
    Well you are certainly right about Darth Vader being born after he kills Windu. Because at that moment he chooses Sidious' side. I suppose the interesting question related to our conversatin is if Padme had survived would he still be Darth Vader? Could she have pulled him back from the DarkSide?
     
  24. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016

    I have always wonder about that. Because he transforms completely when she is dead. His light part dies with her. So if Padme could survive, yes the Emperor couldn’t control him and he would back to his senses much more earlier. Also he will have the hope of his children... But I think unfortunately Padme couldn’t survive in a world like this. For me her fate is a metaphor of the fate of the Republic, Padme has no place in this rude, dark era: the Imperial times. So, I could say that: yes, she would save him, but I don't know how she would survive in a world like this.
    I also have wondered if Darth Vader used to remember his wife, how he could live a 20 years in self hate. Maybe his obsession to find Luke in the beginning was motivated of the simple fact that Vader already knew something important: he didn’t kill Padme. She was alive and gave birth to his son.
     
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  25. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 16, 2016
    And one more reference that came as idea from a discussion with CisDroid what if the real world generals and politics think of the real world soldiers as battle droids, i.e. instruments of war, not real persons? Is not that the message against the war that Lucas shows us? I would really like to hear the opinion of CIS Droid, as he is the droid expert among us.:)
     
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