Hogwarts Express: The Harry Potter Discussion/ Appreciation Thread! (Spoilers)

Just because he didn't want DD to die does know mean that he did not MEAN it when he said it. He knew that he had to kill him. SO he really DID mean it, even if he didn't want to do it. DD is dead and needs to stay that way.

 

But Bellatrix said you have to really enjoy it, you need to want to really want to inflict that person with pain/death. That cannot be the case with Snape if he is good.

 

Great point. Now I am torn. Is he dead, I mean, really dead?? When I read that in HBP I threw my book clear across the room. I did not want him to be dead, and I really did not want Snape to be the killer. I mean, even after he performed the curse on Dumbledore, he tried to keep Harry free and clear of any wrongdoing...he has to be good...doesn't he???

 

I got into this argument before, all he had to be doing is thinking of somebody he really hates and them perform the charm. He could have had James Potter in his mind at the time. There is almost no way that snape is a bad guy.......seriously, there is too much evidenc to the contrary.....We know that Snape is full of hate, and will kill if nessicary. All he had to do was channel his hate. I think the reason that Harry was unable to perform the charm is because deep down, he really doesn't want to inflict the pain.......

 

I'm pretty sure your mindset needs to be on the person you are inflicting the harm too. I will get the exact quote later.

 

So then if you throw an AK that is meant for DD and Harry jumps in front of it, he will not be harmed?? I don't think so

 

This is one of those arguments that JK is going to have to clear up w/o a doubt for the final book, otherwise, fans will scream bloody murder in outrage.

First time I read the book, I thought Snape was evil, then read arguments to the contrary and rethought my position. I then reread the book, and I mostly still hold onto my original thought.

If you closely read Hagrid's interpretations of the conversation that he overheard between Dumbledore and Snape, Snape wasn't begging Dumbledore for anything, he seemed to be taunting him.

Back when Voldermort was reborn in GOF he muttered that 2 were missing - 1 who would never return, and 1 who he knew to be completely loyal. Naturally we all thought he was referring to Snape being the one who'd never return. However, Karkaloff was killed for being a traitor in the raging war, which meant that at least in Voldermort's eyes, Snape was his loyal servant.

The conversation between he, Cissy, and Bella solidified his acting as a spy right under Dumbledore's nose.

Harry detected a look of revultion cross over Snape's face when Dumbledore pleaded on the ground. When he cast the AK spell at Dumbledore, the spell protecting Harry lifted, proving that Dumbledore was indeed dead.

Only 1 person has ever survived the AK curse and as powerful as Dumbledore might be, he's not Voldermort's marked equal.

I think JK tried to make things as clear as possible in the book on the events as they unfolded, but we all want to believe that Dumbledore's reasons for believing in Snape had to be valid. Throughout HBP you see that every time that Harry broaches the subject of Snape being a spy, Dumbledore does seem to ponder it, but flat out refuses to admit that he might be wrong in this matter.

Over and over, Dumbledore tells Harry that even he doesn't know everything, by having Snape be disloyal to the Order and loyal to Voldermort, it proves that Dumbledore has faults and is HUMAN who allowed his heart to override his reasoning center when it comes to those he believes in. Dumbledore knows that Voldermort is pure evil, but he refuses to see evil in others, even those who're loyal to the Dark Lord.

I need to read HBP a third time, but I truly think that JK was trying to make the matters as clear as possible, and yet fans still refuse to believe what they've told. If Snape is in fact, loyal to Voldermort, it proves that Harry's instincts are sharper than Dumbledore's and it gives him an edge towards the final showdown w/ Voldermort. Harry, unlike Dumbledore, can see that some people cannot be redeemed, and even though he has a hero complex to save those around him, he also isn't soft enough to want to protect those who are disloyal to him and his friends. Harry has the backbone to take out his enemies, and by the end of the last book, I think we'll see him turn into the wizard that Snape doesn't believe is inside of him.

 

I my experience throughout the series, Rowling is anything but clear.

I think it could go either way, there is ample evidence to support both sides. And I think this is exactly the way Rowling wants it. I wish that there was a way to analyze the books and draw a definite conclusion, but I fear this will never be reality.

We can only hope that Rowling, in her (sometimes questionable) wisdom, will come up with an answer that royally rocks. Hopefully the 7th book with be very different than the rest in that, rather than leaving the end open for a sequel, everything will be tied up in a neat little package and there will be a collective "Ahhhhh." around the world.

 

Perhaps she isn't clear, but she drops big hints along the way, you just have to learn to pick them out and follow the breadcrumbs that she leaves.

However, I agree, my gut tends to lean towards Snape being loyal to Voldermort, but I also understand the arguments for the other side that he's a double spy. Guess time will only tell.

 

I agree that she is not all that clear. Yes she leaves us a trail of clues, but most of them can be interpreted in different ways...which is one of the best things about her books, IMO...you are itching for the next one to see where she is going to go with the characters, and to see if your interpretation of the clues was correct.

Yes, it seems that Dumbledore is indeed dead...but we will not know for sure until the next book. I don't want him to be...I don't want Snape to be all evil and horrible...I want Harry to be the hero...but we still have to wait and see.

 

I got a stalker!



Snape is one of those facinating subjects of the books. Like I said before, I can't decide what I want to happen - Dumbledore is right all along and Snape is good...or Harry was right from day 1 and he gets to kick Snape's greasy little arse personally It'd be cool to see Harry invent his own spells and we got a Harry-Snape duel with their own curses. But I don't think Harry's quite up to that kind of task

 

I along w/ 1/2 of the reading world is itching for the last book to come out to see what happens

I'm not saying that my interpretations are correct, however, they do seem more logical. I too would love for Dumbledore to be alive and Snape to be good, but I think if JK did that she would cheapen her own creations. Dumbledore would come across as too perfect and wonderful to be believable as a character...even in a magical world.

Ultimately Harry has to face things on his own. The end of HBP has him stepping away from childhood and towards manhood. All children must make this transition at some point w/o their parental types to assist them along the way.

Harry had his parents stolen from him his whole life, had his godfather taken away, and his remaining father figure Dumbledore. He's on his own w/o anyone to guide him. He will have to learn to trust what's in his own heart and it'll be interesting to see where that leads him.

 

My predictions, as wild as they may be. DD is dead. Snape is good. Harry will team with Draco at some point. Harry is a Horcrux (maybe not a true HX but as a side effect of the AK being blocked). Harry dies. Snape kills Tom.

 

I was with you until the end of your prediction. I have no shame admitting that I have no clue how the final book will work out, but I don't think Snape will be the one to finish off Tom. I think he'll play a huge part, but it has to be Harry in my eyes.

 

I think that (BECAUSE I think he is an HX) the only way that he CAN kill TOM is if he kills him, and is then possesed by him, and Ron OR Hermoine have to Kill Harry, either way, I really don't think he will survive.

 

I remember that I brought this up to you in the YJCC equivalent thread to this; but what if Harry and Tom die together, at the same time? Isn't that more dramtic, solve the Horcrux point and have Harry go out a brave hero all in one move?

They were forged together and now they might die together.

 

But see the reason that I don't think that Harry will kill Tom, is because I really don't think he can. Something to me, just doesn't feel right about Harry using AK. I just have this picture in myu head of Harry taking an HK and TOm celebrating, and turns to Snape for affermation. But he turns to a wand in the face and an AK. I don't know. Again, I just don't feel right about Harry doing AK.

 

There are other ways to kill someone besides AK. Many, many different ways.

 

Yes but one powerful enough to kill Tom? Not likely........

 

Tom is only immortal because of the Horcruxes. You're telling me if I throw Tom in front of a bus, he'll survive? Ultimately everyone here is human. It could be poison, it could be an explosion, it could be them falling off a cliff ... but whatever it is, I think it happens to Harry and Tom at the same time because they will die together.

 

Yeha but if it is non magical, then to me, that is cheap. Why doesn't harry just pull out a glock abnd shoot him??

 

That's exactly what I was about to say. Why not chuck a grenade in his bedroom, or do like PoA - "Hey, here's a muggle's magic wand" BANG!

So I'm flipping through OotP to find the prophecy, and I got sidetracked reading the Voldemort-Dumbledore fight. Anyone else keep hearing Ian McKellen? But hey, here's another quote to add to the killing discussion:

"You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore?" called Voldemort, his scarlet eyes narrowed over the top of the shield. "Above such brutality, are you?"
"We both know that there are other ways of destryong a man, Tom," Dumbledore said calmly, continuing to walk toward Voldemort as thought he had not a fear in the world, as though nothing had happened to interrupt his stroll up the hall. "merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit--"
"There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" snarled Voldemort.
"You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore, still closing in upon Voldemort and speaking as lightly as thought they were discussing the matter over drinks. Harry felt scared to see him walking along, undefended, shieldless. He wasnted to cry out a warning, but his headless guard kept shunting him backward toward the wall, blocking his every attempt to get out from behind it. "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are thinkgs much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness--"
-Order of the Phoenix, page 814

As I'm reading through Dumbledore's big explanation, I find evidence that he *IS* only human. He made the mistake for 4 years in a row of not telling Harry all about why Voldemort tried to kill him. Evidence as to how he may have made a mistake regarding Snape...

Ah, here we are...figured we should post the actual prophecy to have as reference in the thread:

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches....Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have the power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can life while the other survives....The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord ill be born as the seventh month dies...

Discuss.

 

That would probably have more to do with the gun laws in the UK than anything else.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Harry has to kill Voldermort, not Snape. I think that if Snape were to redeem himself he may help to take out the snake or die trying to protect Harry in some way, but there's just no way that he's going to end up killing Voldermort.

There are things worse than death... I suppose that for Dumbledore, he could see that a life without love (Voldermort) or a life of being spoiled (Dudley) would be considered worse than death. Living without a soul or heart would qualify as well.

For Voldermort, I think that by Harry taking out all of his Horcruxes and making him mortal, would be considered to Tom a travesty.

I'm willing to buy that Snape could redeem himself in the last book or that he's a double agent, but I'm still not buying into the theory that Harry is a horcrux.

Why?

First off - Harry has to be constantly possessed by Voldermort. Yes, they can read each other's thoughts and even see what each other's doing if they don't perform Occulumy (I know that's misspelled - sorry ) on each other, however, when Voldermort headed off to intitiate the prophecy, don't you think he would've already had his 7 Horcruxes in place?

Harry survived because of a very old magic spell where the love of his mother protected him against the AK. Yes, Lily died protecting him which COULD indicate that he's a Horcrux, but if, like others have pointed out, Voldermort was putting all of his energy into producing the AK, how would he suddenly be performing a Horcrux? From my understanding of the spell, you have to be concentrating on what you're doing, you can't just have it spontaneously happen.

Of course the scar does flare up whenever Voldermort is ticked off or angry and Harry could sense how he was feeling That however, is NOT the same as being possessed by a person. Remember in the battle of OOTP, Voldermort had to physically possess Harry in order to try to use Harry to kill or be killed by Dumbledore. Harry's mind was his own during that experience and he was able to focus on his grief for Sirius (which ultimately saved him) independently from Voldermort.

I think the scar is mostly a physical mark of Voldermort's action by marking Harry as his equal. I don't think it's a Horcrux. When (and if) Harry defeats Voldermort the scar will vanish once the dark lord is gone forever and the prophecy has been fulfilled.

There's something overall very special about Harry, he was able to break the Imperius long before others could and he's gifted in being able to master spells against Dark Magic faster than his peers. So long as he spends the summer working to master non-verbal curses, Harry should be fully fit to take on Voldermort at the end.