Homophobia in the JC

And to your Muslim reference (why that was there . . . over in Muslim countries they just kill them. Nice, eh?

Ummm...I'm just saying that I'm a Muslim but I can still enjoy the Secret Diaries. And other Muslims have found them humorous as well. That's all.

Nice, sterotype everyone if you like. We're all Bin Ladens. I'm evil, let me kill myself.

That's all I'm gonna say about that, I don't want to derail the actual discussion. Good day.

 

Calm down. I never said you were Bin Laden (stop making leaps). I still don't understand why you interupted with tidbit of information anyway. And I was talking about the Middle East.

My intention wasn't to offend you.

 

I'm just saying it because Muslims are supposed to be the whole anti-gay thing (like your "kill them in Muslim country" stereotype indicates). But I'm not, and a lot of them not, we can tolerate stuff like the Secret Diaries. So why can't some relatively more liberal website do the same?

Again, all I'm (and some others) suggesting is that the same rules applies for both slash stuff and non-slash stuff. No NC-17 stuff for both of them, simple as that.

*shrug*

 

This is from a gay website, mind you, and proof I'm not sterotyping (I originally heard about this story on a Republican website). link


And just because you and your friends can tolerate it is no reason for it be here, and no reason for other people to do the same. People can write slashfic - I don't care. I like the site and I just don't want it here. The fanfic forum is fine the way it is, and personally, (since people keep bringing this up) I would like to have fics with less sexuality anyway.

 

If the administration isn't going to listen to us, what is comms even for?

To answer this point:

Comms, as I understand it, is for the users to have discussions with the JC staff about the running of the Forums as well as a place for JC staff to inform users what's going on.

However, think of this particular request like adding previews to PMs -- we have no control over it, it might be nice to have, but it ain't coming any time soon because it's not up to us.

 

*points up*

Well said.

 

Well, oba's been handling this quite well while I've been occupied this morning.

No one is asking for erotica. She just assumed it.

First to address the issue--I thought I was clear, but apparently, I was a bit muddy (it happens): I do not think all slash is erotica. What I was addressing was the idea of creating a separate forum which would allow slash, on the reasoning that the separate forum would solve the "somebody's offended" problem, because "somebody" wouldn't have to go there. The same argument can (and will) be used for erotica, torture stories, and so on. Either say that PG slash is regular PG fic, or say that it isn't. Don't separate it off and say, "Well, sure, it's PG but it's different PG." Either it's all right or it's not all right.

The other issue I have with a separate forum is simply the "niche" issue. If we have a slash forum, even if we were to avoid the logical progression of requests (and I honestly would consider it a very logical request; I'm not saying that in a dismissive way) then people will want an AU forum, and an adventure forum, and a romance forum (and then it could be split into various 'ships, then maybe different takes on those 'ships...). Starting to separate by genre would be a neverending thing, and it's not something we should start doing.

It's true that whichever decision is made by the nature of this question has to fall on one side of the line or the other. The side it happens to agree with will say, "Well, that's only fair," while the other side will accuse them of taking sides in the culture wars. Both sides feel themselves to be in the absolute moral right. In this case, it's like playing music in public--people may like x-type of music a great deal, but can live with its absence in one place and get it elsewhere, while people who dislike it are made uncomfortable and feel unwelcome. It's just the general principle that the passive preference (dislike of smoking, music, etc) takes precedence over the active preference (smoking, playing music etc), unless you're in a company where everyone enjoys the activity, or one that is specifically designated for the activity. (Hence, fanfic is kept in the fanfic boards, rather than having people write stories in the discussion boards.) Is that an argument for a separate forum? Yes... but I don't think the traffic it would generate is worth the precedent it would set.

On the matter of the "old chestnut" about other sites allowing it, it's an old chestnut for a reason: That's how the free market works. If enough people are dissatisfied with a product for some reason, they buy a different product, and the first one must either adapt or deal with the consequences.

 

Galadrial that arguement has been shot down for JCC, Senate, and Amp.

And yet it's suddenly applicable to something actually Star Wars?

Hah.

I wish those supporting Josh's narrowminded decision would stop pretending it was for the good of the site and admit it is preexisting prejudice.

After all, people on both sides of the arguement can be vocal, josh just finds himself more in agreement with bigotry then equality.

 

There were several arguments above. To which were you referring?

 

the old chestnut.

 

Then it's ridiculous that it was "defeated" in the other forums. There's no logical argument with it. This site is a privately owned area, and a product. Is there some reason why it wouldn't be subject to the same rules as any other product? There are things that bug me here, but I've decided that they don't bug me enough to leave (and at any rate, are worse elsewhere). I can ask and I can present arguments, but I'm not pretending that it's not the choice of the owners, or that it's not my choice to stay despite it.

 

As long as you stop pretending the owners arguement is based on 'what is best for the site' but is instead directly releated to their own prejudices.

If I recall, someone mentioned they wanted TFN to be the one stop site for SW... except for gays.

 

I don't care what their motives are or what your motives are or what anyone's motives are unless I'm writing a story. I don't see a reason not to accept Josh's statement--basically, that he doesn't want to deal with the headache--at face value.

 

Not wanting to deal with the headache of slashfic does not mean Josh has a prejudice against gays. You are making unwarranted leaps, and assuming that you know the thoughts of another person (you aren't a Jedi, you can't do that! ).

Basically, what JG said.

[edit] Spelling.

 

I don't see the issue as being this fanfic thing. The issue is, IS THERE HOMOPHOBIA on the JC? Is it ok? Is it condoned, tolerated, encouraged by the Administration? Are sufficient steps taken to DISCOURAGE this behaviour? What types of homophobia specifically have been happening on the JC? What can the USERS do to make it better? Should the users call people on their seeming homophobia?

The fanfic issue is simply, whatever is allowed for heterosexual stories should be allowed for homosexual stories as well. Period. Anything else is as much a bias as not allowing stories with an interracial relationship. And if that is the case then fine... call a spade a spade. Farraday is right. This is a BIAS... not a moral high road. It's a private site sure, but that's where most bigotry happens is in private places and companies and etc...

 

Joshua Griffin: 9/25/01 4:54pm

I'm not a regular of fan fiction, so I won't come sweeping in here with policy.

Well something's changed hasn't it?


The torture stories, if they are sexual or excessive in nature should be removed and or dropped from the accepted submissions list in my opinion.

Sexual and excessive bad... and homosexuality, got it.

 

It is not bias. He doesn't want to deal with the hassle and controversy of having slashfic.

And yet again, you are basically insisting that you know what's he's thinking, and that despite what he has said, you think its homophobia.

Let me make this clear: You are not mindreaders. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT JOSH IS THINKING. He has stated that the reason it is not allowed is not because of anything having to directly with homosexuals, but because he doesn't wish to deal with the issues involved in allowing it.

That you insist the reason must be bias or prejudice is ridiculous.

[edit] It's been two years since he posted that - he doesn't have the right to change his mind? Or intervene?

 

I love Star Wars. Remember that? It's the series of films about Jedi, lightsabers, and stuff.

 

I'm not a regular of fan fiction, so I won't come sweeping in here with policy.

Well something's changed hasn't it?

Yup--someone probably asked the question and it required being called one way or the other.

 

Considering that's his one and only post in any fanfic related forum?

And no this doesn't require Josh's imput any more then halfies thread did, the difference is quite obviously Josh's own view of homosexuality... which if you'll notice he has not stated.

This does not require his input, however he feels it neccesary to stick his oar in because he finds homosexuality not family friendly.

So, you tell me, is Josh avoiding conflict or avoiding conflict with those he agrees with?

 

What do you mean it doesn't require his input??? It's his site!

And he doesn't need to state his personal feelings one way or the other - he's already stated the reason he isn't allowing it.

 

Yes it is his site, and we don't ask his opinion on if we should ban RPG threads in JCC.
Or to define what spam is.
Or if we should start a Lit reviews forum.

Frankly the JC does not require Josh's imput to run well.

And I'm shocked you would imply his personal feeligns do not impact his reasoning at all, just shocked.

Besides, Gay-Len's post which he quotes contains several factual and logical errors.


Edit// I have seen many people arguing people would boycott but no one saying they would boycott.

Oh, and well done josh, congratulations on the half assed over moderating.

 

So, you tell me, is Josh avoiding conflict or avoiding conflict with those he agrees with?

I neither know nor care. Josh is an individual person who happens to own this site, and it goes by his rules. I'm not interested in speculating on what his personal issues are, or trying to make anyone "own up" to anything. If his rules make the site an unsuitable product for people, then he will lose people (which is what should happen in the case of the Masters course in Georgia, imho). Trying to bully someone into changing a decision by calling him names isn't really the best way to go about getting what you want, anyway.

If you want to discuss the effect on discussion, that's fine. If you want to present arguments that show it would not in fact cause conflicts and that it would have a positive impact on the site to change the policy (other than "We'll stop complaining if you do"), that would be wonderful.

But having this whole argument to decide on the psychology of Joshua Griffin based on this one issue seems like a very intrusive and personal thing.

 

Yet it still angers some parents and powerful political groups. So instead of opening themselves up to hate mail, criticism, and boycotts of their own, the TF.N staff/owners has decided to make a call that avoids all that. They have no obligation to break down any walls of prejudice against slash fiction OR help reduce bias against homosexuals. SW doesn't depict any homosexual relationships, but no one is accusing GL of declaring homosexuality wrong by that omission. They have every right to dictate what they will allow on their site and message boards. They aren't stating their opinion about gays and lesbians with this policy, they are avoiding conflict.

The horse is dead. Lets quit beating it.

Josh