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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Homosexuality and theforce.net

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Angel_of_Sith, Jul 22, 2003.

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  1. Oakessteve

    Oakessteve Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 9, 1999
    EDIT: Never mind.
     
  2. Lord_Iskander

    Lord_Iskander Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 22, 2003
    It seems to me that the there is a bigger picture than just gay fics here. It has to do with the whole reasoning process: if the JC policy doesn't allow gay-fics then so be it. But if the deciding party chooses to give reasons for such policy then these reasons should prove valid, obviously they are not.

    Now, a decisions based on the owner's likes or dislikes it is OK by me. If there is stated somewhere something like: "gay-fics are not allowed because the owners/managment team does not like/agree with it" then please give me a link - cause I didn't find it.

    If there isn't then it should be. Why? simple, because this is a private forum and the owner has the right to choose what to be posted and what not to.

    However if there are other resons stated then those resons should be valid. For example that it is against said character's profile to be gay. But then there should be forbidden Obidalas, Sabewans and any other such pairings that would be against the character profiles deducted from the movies or EU. But even such a reason would be flawed because there could still be OC's that are Gay.

    As far as cross-species are concerned I recall that in the Fantasy genre there are a lot of such relationships and even half-human offsprings. So where do we draw the line?

    The reasoning that gay -fics are not family friendly is very weak and to say the least discriminatory. It implies that gay - couples cannot form a family , MAY I remind you that there are certain states/ countries in wich such relationships are oficialized? What about the kids brought up by homosexual couples? How do THEY fit in all of this?

    Sorry for the length of my post, but I belive that such subject should not be treated lightly.

    I will say this once again:

    I DO NOT challenge the owner/managment team's right to ban gay-fic's. what I DO challange (question) are the motives / reasons stated.
    IMO all motives should be disregarded and instead simply stated that THIS IS THE OWNER'S CHOICE.
     
  3. YodaJeff

    YodaJeff Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2001
    "IMO all motives should be disregarded and instead simply stated that THIS IS THE OWNER'S CHOICE."

    It was simply stated that way, but that just brought up a bunch of people asking "why?"
     
  4. JediMasterAaron

    JediMasterAaron Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2000
    It was simply stated that way, but that just brought up a bunch of people asking "why?"

    Which isn't necessarily bad.

    That's the most relevant question asked to date.

    There are actually some really talented writers over there in the Fan Fic forum. You guys should check it out.

    JMA
     
  5. Jansons_Funny_Twin

    Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Heaven forbid we should ask "Why."

    Best we just keep our heads down and let the admins do their job.

    Baa.



    Cruelty lies within kindness.
     
  6. YodaJeff

    YodaJeff Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2001
    I never said that there was something wrong with asking why. I was simply explaining that what one person suggested had already been tried.
     
  7. BYOB_Kenobi

    BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2000
    In actuality, this really isn't a private message board, much less a private website. Everything displayed both on the main page and in the forums (with the exception of the mods-only clubhouse) is displayed publicly, without requiring the viewer to log in. Absolutely anyone can register with the message board (of course you say registrants should be 13, but that can be niether verified nor enforced). TFN is public, the JC is public. I'm public, you're public, this whole damn place is public. The daily traffic proves this. Anyone who thinks this website is private is fooling himself. And here's the funny part: when something like this website gets this big and this many people are a part of it, it ceases to "belong" to the creator.

    In short, roll with the changes, J*sh. :)
     
  8. Lord_Iskander

    Lord_Iskander Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 22, 2003
    I never said that there was something wrong with asking why. I was simply explaining that what one person suggested had already been tried.


    Well than it should have stayed that way. Giving invalid reasons opens up a whole new can of worms. Well it did IMO. It' like opening Pandora's Box, because then youget guys like me who are neither pro nor anti gay-fic question the fairness and validity of it all.

    If one states an opinion perteining to taste (hope I said that right) then it should suffice. I belive that there are any number of both legal and moral grounds for this. When other motives come into plain then things get murky.

    For those that ask "why?" it follows logicly that they questions the owner's taste and that is a fruitless thing to do.

    I'm not saying here that what I previously stated is a solution. What I'm saying is that it should be a rule of conduite.
     
  9. Qui Gon Jim23

    Qui Gon Jim23 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Anyone who thinks this website is private is fooling himself. And here's the funny part: when something like this website gets this big and this many people are a part of it, it ceases to "belong" to the creator.

    That statement's a bit too Communist for me. Nowhere in law does it state that property ceases to be private because of the number of visitors to said property. It it not privately viewable, but that by no means makes it publically owned.
     
  10. freak-pudding

    freak-pudding Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2002
    I don't know if this has all ready been posted because I'm far too lazy to read this whole thread, so I apologize in advance if this has all ready been addressed.

    In the original discussion thread about the JC's policy against gay/slash fictions in the Writer's Resource Forum, someone (I believe it was one of the mods) posted saying that the policy stemmed from a letter written to Josh by George Lucas and his legal advisors. Apparently, when a fan site gets as big as TFN is, the owner/proprioters begin recieving letters and communications from Lucasfilm about what exactly can be featured on that site. You should be grateful that we can have fan fiction at all. The Lucasfilm administration is apparently very wary on fanfiction. I believe it was even illegal for a while.

    The point is, everyone blaming Josh needs to realize that he has to answer to Lucasfilm. He must comply with their guidelines or risk being sued. What if he were to allow slash fan fiction and then was sued by Lucasfilm? We might lose the entire JC over something so silly.



    Now, I am not an anti-gay person, being semi-bisexual myself. However, I don't honestly believe that homosexuality belongs in the Star Wars universe unless displayed by original characters.


    That is all I'm going to say, but if I can find the link to the message I'm talking about, I'll provide it.


    EDIT: Found it here. Scroll down until you find Kadue's message.

    And: An article about Lucasfilm's feelings towards fan fiction


    EDIT 2: Spelling...
     
  11. BYOB_Kenobi

    BYOB_Kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2000
    I'm not talking about the law, I'm talking about reality.
     
  12. Qui Gon Jim23

    Qui Gon Jim23 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Um, last I checked the law is reality.
     
  13. BobTheGoon

    BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2000
    By your reasoning Lucasfilm could just as easily shut this site down for using unauthorized images from the Star Wars franchise. Look at the top of this page: Obi, Amidala, Anakin, Luke, Leia, Han, R2, Maul and Dooku are all copyrighted images. Should TF.N remove all Lucasfilm property that it doesn't have express legal permission to use? That's the law, isn't it? Therefore that is also reality.

    You can't have it both ways and still have a moral and argumentative leg to stand on.

    /What we call reality is an agreement that people have arrived at to make life more livable.
    --Louise Nevelson
     
  14. Grand Admiral Thran

    Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 1999
    The "if you don't like it then leave" argument is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. How many tens of thousands of people visit these boards? TF.N has done everything in its power to make sure that they are practically the only place to go for fan interaction on this scale. Friendships and communities have been built here, and many posters have been here for years. To tell them that since they don't like one aspect of board policy they should leave and never return is as stupid as telling someone that opposes the war in Iraq that they should leave the U.S.


    No, you have a RIGHT to live in the US and speak your voice against the government. You do not have the same right here. Get the difference?

    This is NOT a democracy. GET OVER IT.

    If this causes the JC to become unpopular and abandoned, OH WELL, it is THEIR business choice. They are NOT saying homosexual aren't allowed, they are saying that homosexual content is NOT family-friendly. /MOST/ courts would agree to it as well.

    You people act as if it is some grave injustice that has been committed, not being able to post gay stories. I personally believe all romantic fanfic should be banned from the forum, because children can access the site...but again, it's up to Lucasfilm, the owner of the site, and the admins.

    This place isn't 'just a forum', it's also a place of business and legalities. Please try to understand it before you go off spouting gay rights, because I certainly don't see McDonalds sponsering 'gay-touchy-feely toys' in their happy meals. Or cross-dressing toys for those boys/girls who can't quite figure out what they are. Why? Bad family image in the American eye. Will it change in the future? Perhaps. But for now, it is SMART business to stick to the nuclear ideal of a family.


    //going back to his nuclear, half-christian, 1/4-other, 1/4 atheist, very liberal household.
    -GAT
     
  15. BobTheGoon

    BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2000
    GAT, never once did I claim that this board was a democracy. What I am saying is essentially what you were saying; acquiescing to a vocal groups concerns is good business sense. Of course, business wouldn't come into play here since TF.N is 100% non-profit, or so they say. As for your definition of "family friendly" as the nuclear family, I'd say a good half of the families in the U.S. alone no longer adhere to "traditional" family standards. And you may not be seeing MacDonalds giving out "gay touchy feely" (an odd term from a self-proclaimed liberal), maybe TF.N should be more in-line with Disney, which also proports itself to be family friendly, but still manages to hold Gay Days at their family theme parks.

    /p\/\/3Nd
     
  16. JediMasterAaron

    JediMasterAaron Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2000
    /MOST/ courts would agree to it as well.

    PPOR.

    The type of homosexuality that is under scrutiny here is mild, PG rated stuff, as per the basic rules of the Fan Fiction forum. If two guys kiss in public, in front of a child, would the family be able to sue over violation of their rights?

    I doubt it.

    JMA

     
  17. Amidala_Skywalker

    Amidala_Skywalker Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 2001
    I?ll just step in here to clarify something.

    No kidding again. It's OK for Padme to be with Jar-Jar, but it's not OK for Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan to be together? Please.

    Sorry, a_g, but you are incorrect. Padme/Jar-Jar fan fiction is not allowed on the JC boards. However, cross-species dating between a human and another species resembling humans, and pairings from the EU books and comics are allowed. For the record, Jar-Jar is not classified as humanoid. I seem to remember that you were present for the discussion and for the resulting compromise, a_g. Just to clear up any further confusion, an example of a permitted cross-species dating would be humans and Twilek.

    Am [face_love]
     
  18. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 2000
    My mistake, Am.

    Let me clarify: a pairing between a human and a Bothan or a Twi'Lek would be allowed, as long as one is male and one is female. So Padme could be with a male Bothan but not with Sabe.

    Yeah, I was around for it and I remember it now, and I remember wondering why it even came up for discussion when homosexual fanfic isn't allowed. But I don't like the EU or consider it canon either.
     
  19. Grand Admiral Thran

    Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 1999
    Edited out.

    GAT, never once did I claim that this board was a democracy. What I am saying is essentially what you were saying; acquiescing to a vocal groups concerns is good business sense.

    Sure, but if that vocal group is defined as something not in the interests of the business/group, then why are you complaining? Boy Scouts don't allow gay leaders still, and that's sheer out discrimination against homosexuals for BEING gay. This just is about not posting gay fanfic stories.

    Of course, business wouldn't come into play here since TF.N is 100% non-profit, or so they say.

    Um, it takes money to keep the boards. Not gaining money, but keeping a balanced cheque book is a bit essential.


    As for your definition of "family friendly" as the nuclear family, I'd say a good half of the families in the U.S. alone no longer adhere to "traditional" family standards.


    But that's what most America wants. Look how most businesses portray themselves, or candidiates running for office. Don't kid yourself, many people want this country to go back to the 50's with the white picket fence.


    And you may not be seeing MacDonalds giving out "gay touchy feely" (an odd term from a self-proclaimed liberal), maybe TF.N should be more in-line with Disney, which also proports itself to be family friendly, but still manages to hold Gay Days at their family theme parks.


    Self-proclaimed? I'm registered Democrat on my voter registration, anyone here knows me I swing hard left, and furthermore, calling something 'gay touchy feely' is not an odd term. It's used to emphasize the openness of homosexuality in family-oriented places. It is not something entirely accepted yet by our society, and while we should slowly ease into it, forcing anyone to turn pro-gay is wrong. As much as I may disagree with republicans, I accept their views and am THANKFUL for them. Their views conflict with mine and the best, most fair path is found between them. There isn't much difference here.

    Again, TF.N is not anti-gay, nor is LucasFilm. They BOTH have stated 'slash' fanfic is inappropriate for their universe. Please when I say 'their' universe, understand Lucas created it and he can do with it as he pleases. If he displeases fans too much, he will lose them, so keep in mind with that. If you really feel so strongly that the JC is being nazi-like in their policies, then boycott or petition the board with LucasFilm. A couple thousand signatures is all you'll need to help turn the tide to allow gay fanfic and a seperate, disclaimered section for +18 members to go to. I'd assume romantic fanfic would be lumped into that board as well.

    However, complaining non-stop on a thread on the board won't do a darn thing. The only thing it will do will add traffic and statistics that will further this board's success in the future and keeping the policy because it proves to draw more users. Keep that in mind everytime you surf here or click that 'post' button.

    -GAT
     
  20. Qui Gon Jim23

    Qui Gon Jim23 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    By your reasoning Lucasfilm could just as easily shut this site down for using unauthorized images from the Star Wars franchise. Look at the top of this page: Obi, Amidala, Anakin, Luke, Leia, Han, R2, Maul and Dooku are all copyrighted images. Should TF.N remove all Lucasfilm property that it doesn't have express legal permission to use? That's the law, isn't it? Therefore that is also reality.

    I don't see how that argument has the least bit to do with what I, or even BYOB_Kenobi, said. Off-topic personal commentary.

    Now, a decisions based on the owner's likes or dislikes it is OK by me. If there is stated somewhere something like: "gay-fics are not allowed because the owners/managment team does not like/agree with it" then please give me a link - cause I didn't find it...

    ...The reasoning that gay -fics are not family friendly is very weak and to say the least discriminatory. It implies that gay - couples cannot form a family


    How are those statements the slightest bit different? Contrary to the believe of several of those in this thread, a male/male, female/female, female/dog unit is not considered a family by everyone. But even still, "family-friendly" is not a state-defined term. anakin_girl may consider her dog part of her family, but I doubt any family benefit plan would cover a dog. Regardless, "family-friendly" is a personally define phrase, and for most of us not nearly as liberally define as you seem to think it is. That said, "family-friendly" is personally defined by the owners of the site (and I say owners because it was decided long before most of us got here) as not including homosexual relationships among beloved characters. By your first statement you should be fine with this decision.
     
  21. BobTheGoon

    BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2000
    First: "First off, Bob, I'm going to discount your 'omfg l337 sp33k!!11```oneoneone' that you have so eloquently placed at the end of your little post. As much as it makes me wish to laugh at you and discount your argument entirely, I won't."

    It's called a joke. I hate leet-speak.

    Secondly, I could really give a rat's behind about fan-fic. I just don't like to see the little guy trampled on. I think I'll leave the rest of the argument to those whole care/those who it will affect.

    And finally, saying that you can't have slash fanfic because Lucas might come down on you and saying you can't have unauthorized images for the same reason is a very valid point. Think about it, whoever-you-are-that-questioned-it-whose-name-I-can't-bother-to-look-up.
     
  22. freak-pudding

    freak-pudding Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Bob, was that last statment directed to me? If so, I wasn't trying to argue or anything. I just thought I'd provide you (by you I mean all who've posted here) with that information. It bothered me that everyone seemed to be blaming Josh & calling him anti-gay.



    And, by the way, I'd have to imagine that the photos aren't unauthorized or there would be no banners or icons or such. TFN has many legal disclaimers, so they're covered.
     
  23. JediMasterAaron

    JediMasterAaron Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2000
    Contrary to the believe of several of those in this thread, a male/male, female/female, female/dog unit is not considered a family.

    Out of curiosity, by what standards? Is that a state definition?

    JMA
     
  24. Qui Gon Jim23

    Qui Gon Jim23 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Actually, in my haste I left out "by everyone" to the end of that sentence, which I have now edited it. My entire point was that there is no standard definition of "family friendly", so arguing the definition is pointless in this debate.
     
  25. JediMasterAaron

    JediMasterAaron Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2000
    My entire point was that there is no standard definition of "family friendly", so arguing the definition is pointless in this debate.

    It is, now that your post has been edited. Before it looked as if you were stating a definition of "family friendly", as laid down by the law.

    JMA
     
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