I was referring to how in the ancient world, being penetrated was seen as effeminate. (Wonder where they got that idea.) Spanish terms for gay men still refer explicitly to "top" and "bottom" positions. (By the way, this view is actually pretty common. I'm Oglala, and an Oglala man who sleeps with other men is normal, but if he starts acting feminine or is penetrated, it's seen as falling under a curse which will ultimately turn him into a woman.) Hence the "as with women" reference. Fire_Ice_Death: Drinking game: Whenever an antigay activist says that the ban on gay marriage is the only thing keeping people from reproducing, implying he would switch teams the minute society allowed him to do so, drink something ending in "tini" that isn't a martini.