Senate Homosexuality: the Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by zombie, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Homophobia has nearly always been socially acceptable in Russia as best as I can recall.

    Edit: Homosexuality was actually illegal in the USSR, for example:

    Communism and homosexuality
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Jan 26, 2013
  2. Ghost Chosen One

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    Oct 13, 2003
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    Yeah the article I quoted says so too, with homosexuality being decriminalized 20 years ago. But now, as so many countries are heading closer to full equality, it's troubling that Russia is moving in the opposite direction. Russia is an important country, not another Uganda.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Jan 26, 2013
  3. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    TBH Russia's been experiencing something of a right shift with Putin in general. His grip on the country isn't quite as concrete as it was in his first term, but Russians crave familiarity, and for what's still a decisive slice of the country (40 years old or more) that's USSR-style social practices.
    Chewgumma likes this.
  4. Obi Anne FF admin Celebrations, Europe

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    There was a big report on the news here about the law passing, and it was scary. There were interviews with a child psychiatrist who sat there claiming that the law was good since it would stop "normal" children from hearing about homosexuality, and becoming homosexuals themselves. She also continued with a long speech about how "real" homosexuals didn't mind this law, because they prefer to just stay inside and be isolated from the rest of the society. The people protesting aren't "real" homosexuals but have a load of mental problems.

    Even more scary though were the pictures from the protests outside the Duma, where the LGBT people were standing peacefully, before they got assaulted by orthodox/conservative hooligans, and then the police came and arrested the LGBT people but not the people assaulting them.
  5. solojones Chosen One

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    Something of one? Putin and his KGB pals have been in control of that country for 20 years. I think they're just finally putting a lot of the things they always wanted to do more explicitly into practice. That place has not progressed since the fall of the USSR; it's only become backwards and corrupt in different ways than before.
  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Hoo boy, I see understatement escapes you. In addition, you're quite wrong about it "not having progressed" since the fall of the USSR; the power dynamic has shifted considerably in just the last few months.

    2012-13 Russian protests There's still alot of right-wing fear mongering going on in that country, but that'll change as older people die off and people keep having kids. Putin and United Russia isn't popular with the generation equivalent to us, and I see no reason why that won't continue to be strengthened.

    @Obi-Anne: I think I recall hearing about that. Truly horrible.
    Chewgumma likes this.
  7. Chewgumma Chosen One

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    Apr 14, 2009
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    It is depressing that any major world power could enforce such legislation in this day and age, but Russia has always been behind with these things. They didn't decriminalise homosexuality until 1993, nearly 30 years after western nations decriminalised it. And it should be noted it wasn't that long ago western nations were just as bad. Up until about 10 years ago the UK had similar legislation called section 28, a nasty little law passed by the Thatcher administration to appeal to the hard-right. 2 years after it got struck down the UK passed civil ceremonies and this Tuesday parliament is expected to legalise full marriage rights, a move that is being promoted by our conservative prime minister who campaigned to keep Section 28 back in 2003! Over the course of a decade this country has become a much more tolerant society to live in.

    It may not happen for a little while yet, but if history is anything to go by then Russia can do the same and change for the better.
    DarthBoba likes this.
  8. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Russia lags behind the West in virtually every category, whether it's gay rights or life expectancy.
  9. Juliet316 Chosen One

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    Apr 27, 2005
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    Switching gears: It appears that the Boy Scouts, in a surprising about face, is heavily considering reversing it's ban on gays in their membership. Surprising because just this past summer the Scouts decided to uphold it's ban after 'serious discussion' on it.
  10. LandoThe CapeCalrissian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
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    The truth is the boy scouts don't have to worry about gays molesting their children on camping trips, im sure there are plenty of creepy old straight white men who will do the molesting. They could send the kids to Penn state to learn about football perhaps or to a local catholic church function.

    Whats the worst gays in the boy scouts will do, perhaps teach the kids to make a pumpkin risotto over a camp fire.
    Rogue1-and-a-half and Debo like this.
  11. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Wyoming may pass Domestic Partnerships (which is basically marriage in all-but-name). It has made it out of committee on a 7-2 vote (full same-sex marriage almost made it through committee but failed on a 5-4 vote), and the GOP Governor has indicated he would sign the Domestic Partnership bill into law if it comes to his desk:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/28/wyoming-gay-marriage_n_2568862.html

    Not perfect of course, but very good and very, very surprising progress from one of the most conservative states!
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Jan 28, 2013
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  12. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

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    Mar 26, 2001
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    What is the Russian birth-rate? :confused:
  13. Mortimer Snerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2012
    star 4
    Y'know what I think of when the "issue" of homosexual marriage comes up? The fact that time and resources are wasted on something so beyond trivial? This:

    [IMG]

    I'd like to hear one...ONE argument against the idea of same-sex marriage that has nothing to do with religiosity or bigotry, followed by an explanation of why it's neither.
    Juliet316 and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  14. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    It was negative til last year; they started making more people than were dying last year.
  15. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

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    Jun 28, 2006
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    Keeping with the 'outside the US' trend, although in a more positive direction, in France the National Assembly has passed (249-97) a bill that would establish same-sex marriage. Depending on how this settles out, it also looks like adoption for same-sex couples will be passed in the process.

    According to the article, polls in France show that support for same-sex marriage is somewhere between 55 and 60%. I'd think the most relevant part of that, then, is that it does show that there isn't that much of a difference between the US and France, at least in the large scale statistics. The last several national polls in the US have had something like 50-55% of Americans supporting same-sex marriage.

    I do think that should be fairly hopeful that, with same-sex marriage support increasing in the US and now in the majority, that we're reaching the spot that a true and meaningful redefinition of marriage can be carried out in the US to broaden the institution of marriage somewhere in the next few years. For the population as a whole, there's not too much of a difference between the US and France, say. The bigger obstacle now, it seems, is a combination of who is more likely to vote and structural differences between the US and France.
  16. LostOnHoth Chosen One

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    Feb 15, 2000
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    The funny thing about that article is that it demonstrates in any discussion about same sex marriage, regardless of what part of the world the discussion is taking place, there is always, and I mean always, the obligatory comment from some religious spokesperson declaring that same sex marriage will open the door to incest and polygamy. There is never a rational or logical basis for opposing same sex marriage on it own merits, it is always just the slippery slope argument.

    How does a change to the definition of marriage to be a union for life between two persons (without any specific gender prescriptions) possibly open the door to polygamy? Or incest? Polygamy laws, if they exist, are not affected. Incest laws, if they exist, will not be affected. All that is happening is the removal of the prescription that a man can only marry a woman or vice versa. How that leads to multiple spouses or incest is beyond me.
    Juliet316 likes this.
  17. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 19, 2000
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    It's intellectually lazy, Hoth, that's what it is. I can think of two arguments for opposing same sex marriage that don't depend on the slippery slope, but I guess they're harder to sell than the arguments you cited because they don't inspire fear.
    1. As was mentioned in the JCC (I think), any kid raised in a same-sex marriage may be bullied.
    Of course, this is something we'd just need to pull through, and it wouldn't be as much of an issue after a generation, but the fact remains that it might be hard on the kid in question.
    2. Got this from an Italian, an argument I hadn't heard before: many Western countries face declining population numbers. The last thing we'd want is to encourage people to stop procreating.
    I'll leave the rebuttal of this argument to Jabba.
  18. Lowbacca_1977 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2006
    star 6
    Honestly, I don't even see how that constitutes a slippery slope to deal with. That's like saying if you let people have pie for dessert, then other people would want cake or ice cream. Not only is the first thing nothing horrible, but the other things aren't bad, let alone horrible enough to get everyone worked up.

    The one reason I think they are, generally, linked is because often the justification of same-sex marriage is "if they love each other, why's it matter?" And of course, at that point, I think that can then be applied to polygamy and incest as well. I just don't see the problem with doing so. "Consenting adults" seems to be the reasonable and rational line, to me. But if you use the "but love is love" sort of attitude, then it opens it to going further where that sort of logic can be applied. It sets that stage, if its intended to or not.
  19. Ghost Chosen One

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    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    How does that make any sense?
    Male-male couples and female-female couples can still have kids, either from a previous relationship or a surrogate mother or a sperm donor, and in a few decades it will likely be possible for same-sex couples to have their own biological offspring.
    And it's not like legalizing gay marriage will make more people gay (though it might allow more people to open up instead of hiding their true feelings and conforming to society, getting into a loveless marriage).

    And children of interracial marriage were probably picked on too (and now one of them is our President). It's not a reason to stop progress and equality.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, Feb 2, 2013
  20. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    As I said, I got it from an Italian.

    Seriously though, I'm pretty sure the kid ratio in married homosexual couples is - at least for now - lower than in heterosexual couples. This is not the rebuttal you're looking for.
  21. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    And gay people would have more kids if they weren't allowed to marry each other?? That doesn't make sense. Same-sex marriage doesn't encourage people to stop procreating in any way. If anything, having kids becomes more of an option for same-sex couples, with increasing acceptance and equal legal rights.
    Straight couples can accidentally have kids, gay couples have to choose to have kids (and if they do it by surrogate mother or sperm donor then it's probably expensive).
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  22. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

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    Sep 19, 2000
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    Well, I'm not going to go on defending an argument that I don't support. Seeing how that worked so well in the Dunk It thread. But it's interesting to know that it's an argument that the Catholic Church propagates in Italy.
  23. Rogue1-and-a-half Manager Emeritus who is writing his masterpiece

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    Nov 2, 2000
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    Yeah, that's basically one of the arguments they use against birth control as well. But, actually, aren't we kind of reaching critical mass as far as population goes? Some people are saying that in a few decades there will not be enough resources to support the growing population of the planet. People who say "we need to have more children" are really only basically saying "we can't let this other group of people outnumber us!"
    RC-1991 and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  24. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

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    I agree wholeheartedly.
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    Exactly.

    And we are at a critical mass as far as population.

    Homo sapiens is not an endangered species and is in no danger (pun intended) of becoming one.