Homosexuality: What's up with that? (V.2)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by CwrnPuppet, Aug 12, 2002.

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  1. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    You all know the debate: Is homosexuality a choice or is it innate? Are these people simply following their nature or are they trying to be counte-culture in order to upset "normal" people?

    We want to start this off with a specific topic, but anything ralated is a possibility.

    For starters: How do you feel about the Boy Scouts and their decision not to allow gay members and leaders?

    Do the Scouts have a right to exclude participation, based on sexual orientation?

    Do homosexuals have a right to protest this choice?

    Let the games begin!

    It's new thread day, and it's time for V.3 of this one.
  2. Jedi_Master_Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    All hail CrwnPuppet!

    Well that aside, I wan to bring out this fact. I think as far as the scouts thing goes, they should be allowed to have whatever sexual orientation they wish to. Banning them from the scouts goes against what the BSA was originally founded upon. That founding my friends, is unity, and freedom. They are going against their foundings. It think it hypocritical.
  3. FlamingSword Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    For starters: How do you feel about the Boy Scouts and their decision not to allow gay members and leaders?

    First, I'd like something cleared up. Are the boyscouts banning all gays or just those who openly embrace and promote their sexuality?

    Depending on the above answer, I might have different thing to say.

    The boy scouts do have the right, as a private organization, to determine who constitutes their membership. There is nothing unconstitutional about men-only, women-only, hindu-only clubs. Those are exclusionary and I see nothing wrong with that. If the Boy Scouts of America decide to withold membership from gays, then it is within their right to do so.

    However, I feel that they are being a bit too exclusionary if they ban gays who aren't promoting their sexuality. Their personal and private life does not have anything to do with how well they lead and can mentor these boys.

    If the boy scouts ban gays who are promoting their sexuality, I can agree more with it. If the boys scouts feel that their group is not the place to promote sexuality of one form or another, that should be respected.
  4. tenorjedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    I'm up on whats down yo!

    They can do what they like. Several independant groups receive gov't funding. That does not mean the gov't gets to dictate how they operate. They can remove the funding if they wish but they cannot force something like this upon their members.
  5. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    For some reason, some people confuse homosexuality with pedophealia. That leads to a fear that if homosexuals are let into the boy scouts, they will end up abusing children. Then there is the fear that homosexuals will "pass it on" to the kids. Or warp their minds with their sexuality.

    When you look at their reasons, and then look at the facts of homosexuality, then they really have no grounds for banning them from the boy scouts. But, some would argue that they are a private organization, and have every right to exclude anyone they want to, even if their reasons don't make sense.
  6. tenorjedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    it's not that people are instantly looking at homosexuals as pediphiles but you'll notice that the girlscouts don't have dads go on camping trips with them either.
  7. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    All hail CrwnPuppet!

    Ack! I swear; had I known the Bible would have caused sentences like this, I never would have written that damned thing.

    First, I'd like something cleared up. Are the boyscouts banning all gays or just those who openly embrace and promote their sexuality?

    I think that the basic rule is that if they say they are gay, they aren't allowed to join.

    The boy scouts do have the right, as a private organization, to determine who constitutes their membership. There is nothing unconstitutional about men-only, women-only, hindu-only clubs.

    Yeah, but those clubs are generally geared towards those people, ie - Hindu-only clubs generally deal with Hindu-related issues. The Boy Scouts have nothing to do with sexuality. It isn't "Heterosexual Camping for Fun and Profit"

    Those are exclusionary and I see nothing wrong with that. If the Boy Scouts of America decide to withold membership from gays, then it is within their right to do so.

    What if they decided to exclude blacks? Would that be their right?

    However, I feel that they are being a bit too exclusionary if they ban gays who aren't promoting their sexuality.

    I'm confused: What do you mean by "promoting their sexuality"? I don't think anyone should be promoting any kind of sexuality in the Boy Scouts: That's not what the organization is for.

    If the boy scouts ban gays who are promoting their sexuality, I can agree more with it. If the boys scouts feel that their group is not the place to promote sexuality of one form or another, that should be respected.

    I don't think anyone wants to promote any kind of sexuality in the Boy Scouts. Gay people just want to participate.
  8. SaberGiiett7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    If the Scouts wish not to have gays fine.They have a right to because their not Government owned.
  9. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    it's not that people are instantly looking at homosexuals as pediphiles but you'll notice that the girlscouts don't have dads go on camping trips with them either.

    I think the general idea with both boy and girlscouts is to promote bonding with their same-sex parents. I don't think dads are excluded from the girl scouts for fear that they will mess with the girls, so much as this event is meant to be a time for mothers and daughters to hang out, sans men.
  10. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    If the Scouts wish not to have gays fine.They have a right to because their not Government owned.

    Agreed. They should also theh be able to exclude blacks, non-Christians, handicapped kids, etc. Let's be nice and elitist, since we're a private organization.
  11. tenorjedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    Don't forget the dutch




    ;)
  12. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, we all know the Dutch are notorious for ruining camping trips. ;c)
  13. farraday Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Crwn that is their right.

    It is your right to protest not give your money to them and encourage others to do the same.

  14. FlamingSword Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    Ack! I swear; had I known the Bible would have caused sentences like this, I never would have written that damned thing.

    [face_laugh]

    I think that the basic rule is that if they say they are gay, they aren't allowed to join.

    So if they don't say anything, they would be allowed to join?

    Yeah, but those clubs are generally geared towards those people, ie - Hindu-only clubs generally deal with Hindu-related issues. The Boy Scouts have nothing to do with sexuality. It isn't "Heterosexual Camping for Fun and Profit"

    Heh, good point. But then again, if you don't say anything about being gay, you're not excluded.

    What if they decided to exclude blacks? Would that be their right?

    It would be within their right as I see it. However, I would probably disagree with it since, as you put it so nicely, the boy scouts of america have nothing to do with race abd being black.

    I'm confused: What do you mean by "promoting their sexuality"? I don't think anyone should be promoting any kind of sexuality in the Boy Scouts: That's not what the organization is for.

    What I mean with "promoting" is that they actively talk about and perhaps descrivbe their lifestyle. I have heard of cases where this has happened in the boy scouts and it made numerous parents upset. Whether this ruling is patly based on that, I don't know.
    The boy scouts is not the place to talk about sexuality, gay or otherwise.

    I feel that the boy scouts are wrong to exclude gays, although they are not wrong to exclude gay, sexual, or other discussion or promotion of topics they don't want to talk about in that situation.
    Despite the fact that I feel they are wrong, I do think that they are legally within their right to do so.

  15. Jedi_Master_Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    Well lets just look at a few basic facts. It IS the BSA's right to exclude homosexuals from their organization, and it IS their right to set a certain standard for their members to join. But does that make it right? Does Wal*mart have the right to exclude service to African-Americans, Asian's, Hindu's etc...? I think not, but shouldn't it be their right? I mean Wal*Mart is a private owned company right? So, if the BSA has the right to ban homosexuals from entering their membership, should Wal*Mart and other stores hold the same right to CHOOSE whom they will serve? Thats a question you have to ask yourself.
  16. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Crwn that is their right.

    Sure, but just because someone has the right to do something, doesn't mean that it's erm...right. We're not concerned with the legal issues here - I agree that they have the right to exclude anyone that they want. I'm talking about the ethics of it: Gay kids can start a fire by rubbing a stick just as well as straight kids. This really should have no bearing on the issue. Not being an organization regarding sexual orientation, why should the Scouts even care?


    So if they don't say anything, they would be allowed to join?

    Of course: If they pretend to be straight, it's just like joining the Army. The point is that a straight kid could talk about having a crush on a girl and be applauded: A gay kid couldn't talk about having a crush on a boy or he would get kicked out.

    Heh, good point. But then again, if you don't say anything about being gay, you're not excluded.

    That's a double standard. Straight leaders will no doubt mention their wives or girlfriends at some point. Why should gay kids/leaders have to feign heterosexuality in order to pitch some bloody tents?

    "What if they decided to exclude blacks? Would that be their right?"

    It would be within their right as I see it. However, I would probably disagree with it since, as you put it so nicely, the boy scouts of america have nothing to do with race abd being black.


    The main point here is that gays can hide thier sexuality. No one can hide their race. It really seems to bug straight people that gay people can walk freely amongst them and they may never know.

    What I mean with "promoting" is that they actively talk about and perhaps descrivbe their lifestyle.

    For one thing, this whole "gay lifestyle" thing is silly. I'm gay and my lifestyle mostly revolves around writing for 6 hours a day and playing video games the rest of the time. My sexuality hardly enters into my "lifestyle"

    Anyway: How is mentioning their lifestyle any different from a straight person doing the same thing?

    I have heard of cases where this has happened in the boy scouts and it made numerous parents upset. Whether this ruling is patly based on that, I don't know.
    The boy scouts is not the place to talk about sexuality, gay or otherwise.


    Right. I don't think any homosexuals want to infiltrate the Boy Scouts so that they can spew sexual propaganda to them anymore than heteros want to join the Boy Scouts so they can teach the kids how to "Get some sweet honey action". The Scouts have nothing to do with sex, which is why I would assert that an individual's sexuality isn't relevent to their inclusion.

    I feel that the boy scouts are wrong to exclude gays, although they are not wrong to exclude gay, sexual, or other discussion or promotion of topics they don't want to talk about in that situation.
    Despite the fact that I feel they are wrong, I do think that they are legally within their right to do so.


    We agree here. Keep sex out of it, on all levels. But don't exclude members for their sexuality - especially considering that even if a 13-year-old knows he's gay, he's likely not out gettin' some, anyway.

  17. farraday Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    I believe it's illegal to not sell goods or services to a person based on their religion, creed, sex, race, or sexual orientation.

    I could be wrong but as I understand it, while the Boy Scouts can forbid gays from joiing, they can't refuse to sell their horrible popcorn to someone who is gay.

    Can someone more knowledgable on discrimination explain it?

    Edit// Crwn, let me make it clear I think it's wrong that the Boy Scouts forbid gays from joining, but I also don't think it's illegal that they do so. My Dad is a boy scout troop leader and I'm fairly confident he wouldn't mind having someone help with all the damn orginization no matter their sexual orientation, as long as they didn't feel the need to flaunt it like some gay activist feel the need to do.
  18. FlamingSword Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    Does Wal*mart have the right to exclude service to African-Americans, Asian's, Hindu's etc...? I think not, but shouldn't it be their right? I mean Wal*Mart is a private owned company right? So, if the BSA has the right to ban homosexuals from entering their membership, should Wal*Mart and other stores hold the same right to CHOOSE whom they will serve? Thats a question you have to ask yourself.

    Actually, you don't have to be a member of Walmart to shop there. Walmart can't refuse people membership to it's organization for the very fact that it is not that type of organization. Walmart and other stores are service oriented organizations. It is possible that it is illegal for them to deny service based on gender, race, or other such factors. Whether it is illegal or not, it would be incredibly stupid.

    But does that make it right?

    No, indeed. Just because something is legal, doesn't necessarily make it right.


    EDIT:
    Anyway: How is mentioning their lifestyle any different from a straight person doing the same thing?

    It's not. I have nothing against a mere mentioning of it at all.

    But don't exclude members for their sexuality - especially considering that even if a 13-year-old knows he's gay, he's likely not out gettin' some, anyway.

    Eh, we're arguing from slightly different points here. Although keeping both in mind, I was thinking more of the leaders than of the kids. And how many 13-year-olds really know for sure what their secuality is? Maybe they have a glimpsing, but I doubt they know themselves well enough to go prosthelizing to other kids
  19. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Crwn, let me make it clear I think it's wrong that the Boy Scouts forbid gays from joining, but I also don't think it's illegal that they do so. My Dad is a boy scout troop leader and I'm fairly confident he wouldn't mind having someone help with all the damn orginization no matter their sexual orientation, as long as they didn't feel the need to flaunt it like some gay sctivist feel the need to do.

    I understand that and I agree, for the most part. However, I'm getting a bit sick of this "flaunt" term, to be perfectly honest. Come on, people: Look around and tell me which is more flaunted, heterosexuality or homosexuality?

    And while we're at it, with the molestation numbers showing that straights are much more likely to sexually abuse kids, why are people so paranoid that gays are going to bring sex into anything they do?

    The problem is that we've created a distinction around a sexual difference and that seems to cause people to associate sex and sex alone with people who happen to be in that grouping. Trust me, being gay doesn't mean that your life revolves around sex: It's a perception perpetuated by the fact that when you encounter someone and know that their gay, the only aspect of their life that you know is their sexuality. It them becomes, for you, their identity.
  20. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Eh, we're arguing from slightly different points here. Although keeping both in mind, I was thinking more of the leaders than of the kids. And how many 13-year-olds really know for sure what their secuality is? Maybe they have a glimpsing, but I doubt they know themselves well enough to go prosthelizing to other kids

    We should see if we can find an article online to confirm or deny this, but I seem to remember that this whole hubbub started when two gay kids weren't allowed to join, or were kicked out for saying that they're gay. Something like that.

    Does anyone have a link?
  21. farraday Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Crwn,
    When I say flaunt I mean those who start off conversations "Hi, I'm <blank> and I'm gay."

    I thought the hullabaloo started when an openly gay scoutmaster was thrown out.
  22. CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Crwn,
    When I say flaunt I mean those who start off conversations "Hi, I'm <blank> and I'm gay."


    I agree that this is useless and annoying behavior, but I promise that no one has ever been thrown out of the Scouts for saying "Hi, I'm <blank> and I'm straight."

    I'd call that silly, but not flaunting.

    I thought the hullabaloo started when an openly gay scoutmaster was thrown out.

    Possibly. I'm trying to find some 411 on it as we speak.
  23. tenorjedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    Without jumping too far into the conversation there's one point that needs to be addressed. It's not only about paranoia or fear of pedophilia but, in the BSA it's based off of traditional Christian traditions. One of them is that homosexuality is a sin. Based on that, the parents can morally (to those with that viewpoint) say, no I'm sorry but I don't want you to in an authority figure/role model over my impressionable son. They don't ask the person to be perfect, but I've seen several scout leaders banned from outtings or even participating due to their smoking, or drinking etc. These aren't universal like homosexuality, but there are others that are rejected based on their lifestyle.
  24. yodafett999 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    I've never been introduced to someone and had them say, "Hi, my name is <blank> and I'm gay."

    Of course I've never had someone who was straight introduce themselves with, "Hi, my name is <blank> and I'm straight," either so.....
  25. Jedi_Master_Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    I personally believe that forbiding a personl to join an organization based on something so small as sexual orientation is silly. A homosexual can just as easily pitch a tent, start a fire, sleep in a sleeping bag, and have fun as a heterosexual kid. I don't think it is fair to someone who chooses a lifestyle in which they will be tormented by their society, s hould have to go through such tormentation. It is their right to be a homosexual, and they should have the right to join any organization they want. And because the BSA isn't completely religiously based, they have no reason to ban homosexuals from entering.

    Furthermore, a religiously based organization maintains the right to allow whom they wish into their membership. Because if some one fails to meet these requirements they can be kicked out of the organization. A non-religous based organization also has this right but in a different way. They are not allowed to bring in moral values. They are however allowed to bring in legal values. Such as;

    If a member of the BSA is found to be doign drugs, or commiting other crimes they can be removed from the BSA.

    This does not include their right to exclude someone because of their background. They are not allowed by the law to only except straight white males. They also have a form of affirmative action if you will. They cannot ban people based on their background. What is the difference with sexual orientation? I see no difference. They are just a human as anyone else. Excluding them is not humane, and therefore should not be supported.
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