main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Homosexuality: What's up with that? (V.2)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by CwrnPuppet, Aug 12, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Here we go

    It seems that this was based on a leader, and not any kids: I am fairly certain that I remember two kids who wanted to join, but weren't allowed to because they said they were gay - am I on something, or did this happen?

    It's not only about paranoia or fear of pedophilia but, in the BSA it's based off of traditional Christian traditions.

    It is? I thought it was meant for kids of all religions. I have an Orthodox Jewish friend who was a Boy Scout.

    One of them is that homosexuality is a sin. Based on that, the parents can morally (to those with that viewpoint) say, no I'm sorry but I don't want you to in an authority figure/role model over my impressionable son. They don't ask the person to be perfect, but I've seen several scout leaders banned from outtings or even participating due to their smoking, or drinking etc. These aren't universal like homosexuality, but there are others that are rejected based on their lifestyle.

    Were they smoking and/or drinking around the kids or while wearing the uniform?
     
  2. tenorjedi

    tenorjedi Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2000
    Actually the Jews have their own program based off of BSA. Most religions do. No lie. It has comedic potential, but anyway.

    As for the smokers and drinkers, I'm not entirely sure since I was never in a troop that had that problem, but there were those that did.
     
  3. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Actually the Jews have their own program based off of BSA. Most religions do. No lie. It has comedic potential, but anyway.

    Oh, for the love of...

    As much as I want equality, I by no means want to see a specifcially gay branch of the BSA. The last thing we need is a merit badge for "Madonna Impersonation".
     
  4. Mr44

    Mr44 VIP star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Faraday,
    Just to help clear some things up, but I think you are confusing civil and criminal procedures.

    Any private company can refuse to sell anything to anyone, under the eyes of the law. There is nothing illegal about it.

    However, a company might have to pay civil monetary penalties, if a pattern of civil rights abuses have been found. This is strictly a private person vs. a private person ( or groups).

    For instance, Tobacco companies get sued all the time, for deceptive business practices. Nicotine in a cigarette is not regulated by law, so no laws have been broken, but monetary awards are handed down, because a perceived injury on a person, as a result of the tobacco.

    It's the same with civil rights violations. Denny's lost a 54 million dollar civil suit, but no laws were ever broken by Denny's because they refused to seat black people.

    The Boy Scouts have been sued over this issue, but as far as I know, since they are a non-profit entity, there is no money to go after. As a result, the boy Scouts can pretty much exclude anyone they want.
     
  5. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Okay, we seem to have exhausted this topic already. Let's move right along:

    Gay marriage: What the hell?

    Start spewing your positions, people.

    *puts up dukes*
     
  6. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    I think they should be allowed to have civil unions. I think religions should have to right to refuse to marry them, but the government shouldn't.
     
  7. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Agreed.

    Marriage is a religious institutiona nd is therefor up to the individual religion.

    However, I can see no reason why not to give homosexual couples the same privedges under the law as heterosexual ones.
     
  8. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Agreed.

    Does anyone else find it odd that religions tend to preach no sex before marriage, yet refuse to marry gays? Where does that leave them? Celibacy? The priesthood? *opens can of worms*
     
  9. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Celibacy.

    I can only speak for Catholicismsince I'm unaware of any other religions official positions, but since homosexual acts are considered sins, then there's no way they could condone maryrign homosexuals.
     
  10. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I think Catholic priests have given us some fine examples as to why celibacy doesn't really work. It only seems to breed perversion and sexual desperation. I've never heard of a married Rabbi molesting anyone.
     
  11. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Where does that leave them? Celibacy

    It leaves them with celibacy.
     
  12. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    Married people molest kids, too. Sometimes even their own. But I don't think celibacy particuarly helps.
     
  13. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I think Catholic priests have given us some fine examples as to why celibacy doesn't really work. It only seems to breed perversion and sexual desperation. I've never heard of a married Rabbi molesting anyone.


    No, celibacy doesn't have anything in itself to do with those problems. That has been a heavily debated subject here in months past, and it was shown through a variety of sources that celibacy is irrelevant to those problems.

    It only seems to breed perversion and sexual desperation

    The people who commit those crimes are mentally ill. They would be committing those crimes in with or without celibacy.
     
  14. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Married people molest kids, too. Sometimes even their own. But I don't think celibacy particuarly helps.

    Oh, definitely: I just think that anyone with a libido knows that the longer you go without some kind of gratification, the more desperate you can become. I can see how people in positions of power and trust, such as priests, might start getting ideas when they haven't had any human intimacy in years...
     
  15. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    : I just think that anyone with a libido knows that the longer you go without some kind of gratification, the more desperate you can become. I can see how people in positions of power and trust, such as priests, might start getting ideas when they haven't had any human intimacy in years

    I just edited this into my previous post, so you may not have seen it. The people who do those things are mentally ill, and it has nothing to do with celibacy. They would be doing those things regardless of celibacy requirements, and if they really need sexual gratification, those that are mature and not mentally ill with pedophelia will seek out someone their own age, not a child.
     
  16. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    No, celibacy doesn't have anything in itself to do with those problems. That has been a heavily debated subject here in months past, and it was shown through a variety of sources that celibacy is irrelevant to those problems.

    Hmmmm. I didn't see this debate, but I think that there is grounds to say that celibacy isn't exactly healthy sexuality. For example, in graphology (handwriting analysis), there are certain letter formations below the baselines of P's and Y's that are found in the writing of rapists, pedophiles, etc - these same letter formations also appear in the handwriting of celibate people: Suggesting that celibacy is a form of sexual deviance or that it can cause sexual deviance.
     
  17. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Celibacy is freely entered into by those who enter the Catholic priesthood (you take one with the other). There is no requirement to go into the priesthood, and while there are those within the priesthood that disagree with the requirement, there are also many who agree and support it.

    To say that it isn't sexually healthy is one thing, but to say it breeds criminal behavior is another, and it is untrue.

     
  18. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    To say that it isn't sexually healthy is one thing, but to say it breeds criminal behavior is another, and it is untrue.

    I don't think that we're able to prove that on either side. How do we know that these guys would have done the same, had they not been celibate? Perhaps this was covered in the other debate - do you have a link to it?
     
  19. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    How do we know that these guys would have done the same, had they not been celibate

    Well, pedophelia is a mental/psychological illness (and one that cannot be cured, only controlled). With that in mind, common sense (to me) seems to say that with or without celibacy, pedophiles will seek out children to prey upon.

    I'll PM you a link when I have a chance to find the debate(s).
     
  20. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    There is a difference between forensic handwriting analysis and graphology. Graphology is a pseudo science at best and as far as I know has nto been allowed in any case as evidence.




    But we're stepping away from the homosexuality question here.

     
  21. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I bow to the former moderator's point there. It is getting away from the main point, and it's my fault for that.
     
  22. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    And since I never posted on the Boy Scouts issue: I think they have the right to exclude gays, as a private organization, but I disagree with their decision to do so.
     
  23. FlamingSword

    FlamingSword Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2001
    Interesting .... anyways, moving back to the homosexuality issue:

    Gay marriage: What the hell?

    I do have somewhat a problem with the idea of gays marrying. Not with the rights associated with marriage, but the idea itself. Whether this is because it's something I'm just not used to (although I think not) or something I do feel is not right, I'm not very sure.

    I'm all for establishing another institution or allowing civil unions. As Rebecca191 pointed out, marriage is a religious institution between a man and a woman.
     
  24. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Well, pedophelia is a mental/psychological illness (and one that cannot be cured, only controlled). With that in mind, common sense (to me) seems to say that with or without celibacy, pedophiles will seek out children to prey upon.

    I agree, but my point is that celibacy may be at least part of what creates that illness.

    There is a difference between forensic handwriting analysis and graphology. Graphology is a pseudo science at best and as far as I know has nto been allowed in any case as evidence.

    The author of the book that I am currently studying does forensic handwriting analysis and has served as Examiner of Questioned Documents in many high-profile cases. It does have its legal uses.


     
  25. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I do have somewhat a problem with the idea of gays marrying. Not with the rights associated with marriage, but the idea itself. Whether this is because it's something I'm just not used to (although I think not) or something I do feel is not right, I'm not very sure.

    I'm all for establishing another institution or allowing civil unions. As Rebecca191 pointed out, marriage is a religious institution between a man and a woman.


    That's fine with me. Call it anything you want. Pick a name: I don't care what it is, I just want my boyfriend and I to have the same legal rights as a couple that our parents had.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.