Homosexuality: What's up with that? (V.2)

Crap-- does that make me a homophobe?

 

Hehehe - your spelling and grammar aren't bad, Stevo - I can always understand what you are saying perfectly ;c)

 

Well, I have a new topic if anyone feels like discussing. Have you ever run into the girls that absolutely swear by the fact that they are lesbians and yet have boyfriends or husbands? I'm not sure that this is a huge phenomenon, I've just seen it quite a few times. They claim to be full-on lesbian. They laugh when you call them bisexual. They march in lesbian pride parades with their husbands. Has anyone else seen this and what do you think of it?

 

I agree that homosexuals have as much right as anybody else to join the military. What else can i say?? There doesn't seem to be much opposition here. Know why that is? becasue we're all intellectuals, and most intellectuals realise theres nothing wrong with being gay.

 

Well, I haven't exactly had the chance to sound off on the Boy Scouts issue, so let me add my perspective.

First of all, I am an Eagle Scout (with two palms). I have been involved in Scouting since I was 8 years old, so I guess I have a little experience.

The reason that the Boy Scouts do not want to accept homosexual members or leaders is because they have set for themselves a certain moral standard. Homosexuality goes against that standard (as does drug use). As a private organization, they are free to hold members to whatever standard they wish.

To provide a different example, my Church also teaches that homosexuality is wrong. In my Church, we have Temples that are only open to members of the Church who meet certain standards of worthiness. Because of this, any homosexual member of the Church is not allowed to enter out Temples. You can believe that we are wrong to do so, but I believe that it would be far more wrong to force us to go against what our beliefs are.

I do not support discrimination against homosexuals (I personally hate to use the term gays). My uncle was a homosexual for most of his life (until his death a few years ago). However, I also believe that homosexuality goes against God's commandments. I believe homosexuality is wrong, but I will not stop someone from being able to choose between right and wrong.

You are free to choose whether to obey or not, but you will face the consequences of your choices, whatever they may be.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Hey, theres a homophob that hides behind his relgion you guys were talking about earlier. "The bible says so, so it must be true, who am i to make up my own mind?".

 

That's unacceptable, Kaine. Don't bring that kind of talk here.

 

Hey, theres a homophob that hides behind his relgion you guys were talking about earlier. "The bible says so, so it must be true, who am i to make up my own mind?".

I sincerely hope this wasn't directed at me, since I am definitely not a homophobe.

However, my Church does teach that homosexuality is wrong. Cannot a person believe that something is wrong without being a bigot? My Church also teaches that drinking and smoking are wrong (and a person who does either cannot enter our Temples either). Does that make me a tobaccophobe? Am I suddenly bigoted against smokers? No.

Just because someone refuses to compromise on their beliefs of right and wrong does not make them a bigot.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Your right. Sorry, put it down to temporary stupidity on my part.

 

Kimball is entitled to his beliefs. While I may not agree with them, he is free to practice them as long as he does not force them on others, which he is not doing.

Who cares if someone's gay? They're still a living, breathing, feeling person involved, what should the orientation matter?

Call me a liberal if you want, but homophobia is yet another thinly-veiled attempt for the more narrow-minded among us to assert control over others.


Peace,

V-03

 

I agree with what Kimball said, mostly. If an organization, be it a church or something like the scouts, wants to have different standards than the world, then let them. They are entitled to their own opinions.

I marvel at how some people can say "You are narrow-minded because you don't think _____ is right." How are those people open-minded? They aren't. They're also narrow-minded because they say "_____ is right, no argument." Very few people are truly open-minded, as in willing to change their views on things.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

If I may sound off on these issues:

It is by my RELIGIOUS BELIEFS that I was taught to respect and love every human being on the face of the earth, no matter what their "sin" may be. And, let's face it, we're all sinners in the views of the Christian and Jewish religions (I'm a Christian, btw). This is what I practice. However, I'm also an equal-opportunity disliker (I don't hate anyone or anything) - in the sense that no matter what you are (gay, straight, black, white, tall, short, yellow, green), if you're an @$$hole to me, I don't like you!

Having said that, let's get to the topics:

Boy Scouts - by their very beliefs and principles (as stated in a previous post), they are condemning themselves in the eyes of God and, probably, the American public. The only thing to change them would be for a gay person to infiltrate the administration and change the rules from within - through peaceful and gentle means. By the BSA losing a court battle, they would only resent gays more. Perhaps they were just so insecure with their own sexuality that they took it out on the one guy who was secure with his sexuality. I think they are wrong and will never let my child join an organization that discriminates.

Gay Marriage - if marriage is really just a legal contract between two consenting adults who happen to live together and raise a family, then we should let it happen. Why? Because all you need to be legally married is a Marriage License - not a wedding ceremony. I know I've read that many gay and lesbian couples who want to have both will go find a church (in VT, I think) and have the religious ceremony along with the legal contract.

Gays in the Military - more power to you! I know I'll be proud of any American that saves my disabled behind from being killed or losing my freedoms! I think my first statement applies here as well: If you can do the job (no matter what you are or do), then do the job.

Now, let me ask a question or two, if I may:

If someone is indeed born a homosexual (and doesn't really find out until puberty), why would nature perpetuate this gene? Control of a species? If the reason that men and women are built the way they are is for the primary purpose of reproduction (and secondary purpose of pleasure), why would nature create a gene that makes in inherently impossible for a couple to procreate? This has seemingly been growing in the population of the world (at least the # of those who will openly admit it has grown). The only reason I'm bringing this up is so I can understand what the reasoning or explanation is besides the emotional aspect.

Another reason I'm asking is because I've met and heard about people who were openly homosexual (both men and women) who later discovered that there was, in fact, a psychological event in their childhood or puberty years that altered their perception of sexuality. Is there any truth in this or is it a sham? Can anyone here help me out?

Lastly, I would just like to suggest that the word tolerance be restricted to references about alcohol or drugs or pain. Why? Because I learned in college that the word that we should be striving for is RESPECT (you sing it Aretha!). Tolerance denotes how much you can take of something before you throw up, pass out, etc. Respect means that you understand another person and their beliefs and can disagree with them, but not hate them. You can care about and admire the person and disagree with their ideas and still love them for who they are!

That's all for now. Thanks for being patient with me. I appreciate all comments and PMs on my post. I am only striving to become a more understanding and complete human being.

EDIT:

Solojones - True, but you can tell them you disagree with them without hurting their feelings. That goes with respect. The point is that you aren't trying to change them by bashing them over the head with your beliefs. But, in reality, none of us has any right to tell anyone else how to live their life. I don't agree with homosexuality

 

John-

I'd like to say that I completely agree with what you stated at the beginning of your post about how Christians should behave. I also try to be loving toward everyone, because I believe we're all sinners. But that doesn't mean I think they should continue to do what my beliefs teach me is wrong.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

It's funny that people mention hypocracy and contradiction because those two are universal human traits, not confined to a specific sexual preference, race or belief.

 

However, I'm also an equal-opportunity disliker (I don't hate anyone or anything) - in the sense that no matter what you are (gay, straight, black, white, tall, short, yellow, green), if you're an @$$hole to me, I don't like you!

Bravo!

 

Uh, we're not sinners in the Jewish tradition. Original sin was originated by the catholic church.

We have that "kosher" thing....

V-03

 

Hehe..yeah, and what a pain that can be sometimes.

Forget about aaalll about bacon double cheeseburgers.

 

Kimball, may I ask you a personal question? Feel free not to answer if I am over-stepping my bounds here: Are you Mormon?

EvilEmperorJohn:

If the reason that men and women are built the way they are is for the primary purpose of reproduction (and secondary purpose of pleasure), why would nature create a gene that makes in inherently impossible for a couple to procreate? This has seemingly been growing in the population of the world (at least the # of those who will openly admit it has grown). The only reason I'm bringing this up is so I can understand what the reasoning or explanation is besides the emotional aspect.

The few studies of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (we need to conduct many more of these) have found that homosexual animals seem to emerge most when a population rises above its usual limit. This would seem to suggest that homosexuality is some form of natural population control, but to state this as fact would be jumping to conclusions. We need to do more research before we can know with more certainty.

Another reason I'm asking is because I've met and heard about people who were openly homosexual (both men and women) who later discovered that there was, in fact, a psychological event in their childhood or puberty years that altered their perception of sexuality. Is there any truth in this or is it a sham? Can anyone here help me out?

I don't doubt that there are some people who link a childhood event or trauma with their homosexuality, but I think that this is mostly and urban legend of sorts.

Most gay people will probably list puberty as that psychological event.

It's really hard to pin something like this down, because we can't do a control experiment with each individual. If John Doe is gay and thinks that he is so because he was molested by his Uncle, we have no way to test whether or not he would have been gay, had his Uncle never touched him.

Regardless, the vast majority of gay people do not have such an event in their lives and site puberty as the first time that they knew they were sexually attracted to the same sex, but most will also say that they "somehow knew" they were different from an early age. I used to have my Luke Skywalker and Han Solo 12" figures kiss when I was 6 - This make my parents scratch their heads, let me tell you.

Lastly, I would just like to suggest that the word tolerance be restricted to references about alcohol or drugs or pain. Why? Because I learned in college that the word that we should be striving for is RESPECT (you sing it Aretha!).

Thank you! I certainly want more than to be "tolerated". All I'm asking for is some respect (just a little bit, oh, baby!)

 

As for the religious reasons against homosexuality, I tackled some of this here if you wish to read it and respond in this thread (as the old one is locked)

 

Kimball, may I ask you a personal question? Feel free not to answer if I am over-stepping my bounds here: Are you Mormon?

Yes, I am. And don't worry about "over-stepping [your] bounds". I make no secret of it.

Kimball Kinnison

 

That's interesting. My boyfriend was a Mormon when I met him.

 

Cwrn, is that anything more then baiting?

 

How is that baiting?

 

If I twist that around a bit, I can see how it is baiting.

In this case, I'm rather confident that it was nothing more than a harmless observation.

 

How does it add anything to the discussion?

As I see it all you're doing is seeing if you'll get a response by saying your boyfriend was mormon.