Homosexuality: What's up with that? (V.2)

I want a t-shirt that says "More Leviticus Fun".

 

A short question to those who bring up those bible-arguments ... how can you be Star Wars fans, being fascinated by a patchwork-religion which is MUCH more influenced by Budhism and other Eastern philosophies than by Christianity, while the Bible (which you take seriously when judging about homosexuality) says that only Jews/Christian have the right religion and there MUST NOT be any other gods ?

Um... because Star Wars isn't real?

Besides, I'm not sure that if we were to stack up the Judeo-Christian elements of SW against the elements of Eastern religions, that the Eastern elements would outnumber the Judeo-Christian elements.

To be honest, The Phantom Menace may have tipped things to favor Christianity. Qui-Gon seemed to be an Old Testament prophet, he believed that the Force has an active will (and, presumably, intelligence and awareness), and Anakin was the Chosen One born of a virgin.

And a lot of Star Wars is up for interpretation. Whether the prophecy of the Chosen One supports Eastern values or Christian values depends on when you think it was fulfilled. If you think balance was achieved when there were two Jedi and two Sith (Yoda and Obi-Wan, Sidious and Vader), then the prophecy supports the dualism of the yin-yang. If you think balance was achieved when Anakin renounced being a Sith and destroyed Sidious (and, consequently the Sith Order), the prophecy supports the Christian idea that good is ultimately superior to evil.


Returning to the subject at hand, I'm not at all sure whether these verses have been discussed at length, but they also seem to teach about homosexuality:

Matthew 19:4-6
Mark 10:6-9

In these parallel verses, Jesus Himself seems to establish lifelong, monogamous heterosexuality as God's intended plan for humanity. If that's the case, the homosexuality deviates from that plan.

If someone remembers that these have been discussed in length, I'd appreciate it if you'd post the links.

 

Nearly everything that you mentioned as part of the Judeo-Christian tradition was based on older myths. I always find myself amused when people seem to think that, for example, Jesus was the first "virgin birth". *chuckles*

 

I didn't say it was exclusive to Christianity, but nor does Star Wars embrace ideas that are exclusive to Eastern religions. So Perceval's question -- which boils down to "how can you like Star Wars and be a Christian?" -- is still based, I think, on ignorance and perhaps even prejudice against Christians.

 

But I still wonder what such topic has to do with this thread.

 

A short question to those who bring up those bible-arguments ... how can you be Star Wars fans, being fascinated by a patchwork-religion which is MUCH more influenced by Budhism and other Eastern philosophies than by Christianity, while the Bible (which you take seriously when judging about homosexuality) says that only Jews/Christian have the right religion and there MUST NOT be any other gods ?

Um... because Star Wars isn't real?

Neither is god.
IMO, the Bible is just another fantasy book with as much value than that of the LoTR books, but with poor writting and an awful translation.
And now you're thinking "it isn't so!" well... think about it. Zeus, Aphrodite, etc were the gods of Greece but now they're just another nice mythology to get to know. Why is that? Because people don't worhip those gods anymore (I think).

If it's only there when you think it's there, then it might not be real. Think about it.

EDIT: sorry for the 'off-topic-ness'... but since there were so many posts here regarding the Bible being something real and to be followed, I really had to post this.

 

... and on that note, I think it might be time to call it a thread. Again, the Bible itself is not up for debate here (or in future threads).

Feel free to post some last thoughts. New thread can be posted after locking.

 

Before locking the thread, is it possible to post some sort of listing of the biblical points and rebuttals? I fear we will have to go through those points which have been gone over a thousand times in this thread a thousand more times in a new thread. I kind of think that the new thread should be devoted to debates over topics not already discussed.

 

I'm still kinda iffy on this Biblical debate thing. With all respect to KW, I would have to say that sometimes, it is necessary to debate it and is somewhat on topic, even when not specifying (alleged) homosexual-related verses. If someone is using the Bible to speak out against homosexuality, I think it is only fair to be able to discount it as a credible historical document. *shrugs*

 

...or, if someone takes a verse of the Bible completely out of context, someone else aught to be free to offer an alternative interpretation.

At least on this point, I agree with Cwrn: we should be free to discuss the Bible as it relates to the topic.

 

You can certainly discuss it as it relates to the subject. It's when it turns into a discussion on the Bible itself (leaving the main issues behind) that's not okay.

 

Hello CrwnPuppet!

To answer your first question from my own experience (being nosey as I am) ?Is homosexuality a choice or is it innate?? I had a friend a few years ago that told me, ?Believe me, Drew, if I had a choice, I wouldn?t be gay. There?s so much societal pressure and discrimination.?

I have described it to others as a percentage thing. Everyone falls along this line from being 100% straight to 100% gay. I personally see myself as 80/20 straight. I can understand where they?re coming from, but I?m firmly in the straight camp. This is where my homophobia came from (past tense), though. I felt threatened by that 20%. Until I came to grips with it by talking to a lesbian friend down in Miami, I really did not like ?those gays.? This may not be the case for everyone?s homophobia, but I firmly believe that?s how it manifests itself in most people.

DarkWoman,
That?s why a lot of the 12-step groups these days say ?? God as we understand God.? When people come into the groups from non-Christian religions or with no religious background they usually have a problem with the higher power concept. Therefore, the program advises them that they can choose whatever higher power they want: a Christian God or otherwise, the group itself, even a doorknob. They are advised to do whatever it takes to turn their will and their life over to a power greater than themselves.

 

Then there are groups like "rational recovery" that don't participate in any of that "higher power" stuff and leave the responsibility for recovery in the hands of the recoveree.

 

DarkWoman:

Neither is god.
IMO, the Bible is just another fantasy book with as much value than that of the LoTR books, but with poor writting and
an awful translation.
And now you're thinking "it isn't so!" well... think about it. Zeus, Aphrodite, etc were the gods of Greece but now
they're just another nice mythology to get to know. Why is that? Because people don't worhip those gods anymore (I
think).

Well said.



To everyone who uses religious arguments against homosexuality: That's all and good for creating one's personal opinion. But are you actually advocating that religious reasons be used to justify the legal discrimination against homosexuals in the United States?

 

According to the Bible, a sin is a sin in God's eyes. Evil is evil, there are not different degrees of it. That being said, homosexuals are no different than the rest of us in the sin area.


I don't hate homosexuals, just like I don't hate anyone else. But I do not condone homosexualty at all.


So concerning discrimination, I suppose it depends on how far you take it. I assume you mean on the level of not allowing homosexuals to get jobs and such, and so no, I don't believe religious beliefs should be used to justify that type of thing.

 

Kuna, I thought KnightWriter made clear that the Bible itself was not going to be discussed. If I must refrain from explaining the differences between an obvious work of fiction like LotR and a work like the Bible -- which includes the laws of ancient Israel, the nation's history, poetry, philosophy, biography, prophecy, and letters of early Christian leaders -- then I don't think you should be free to repost the comment and remark, "Well said."

 

If I must refrain from explaining the differences between an obvious work of fiction like LotR and a work like the Bible -- which includes the laws of ancient Israel, the nation's history, poetry, philosophy, biography, prophecy, and letters of early Christian leaders -- then I don't think you should be free to repost the comment and remark, "Well said."

And yet you managed to say it without saying it. Amazing! I'd reply to your 'non-explanation' with valid arguments, but the talk here on the matter is supposed to be over, so let's leave it that way.

 

"According to the Bible, a sin is a sin in God's eyes. Evil is evil, there are not different degrees of it. That being said, homosexuals are no different than the rest of us in the sin area."

I don't buy that. Using that logic you could say that a 10 year old that steals a bar of chocolate is every bit as bad as a mass murderer. Which, of course, is rediculous. One way of measuring the degree of badness of an act is to see how much pain has been caused by the act. Murdering not only causes pain for the person being murdered, with the pain of death and not being able to live anymore, but it also causes pain to the people that loved that person. Stealing a bar of chocolate doesn't cause much pain at all. Now, how much pain does being a homosexual cause to other people??

 

I believe that, from the Christian's perspective, all sins are equal in that any single sin is enough to separate you from God.

It is the case that murder is morally worse than shoplifting. Similarly, leaping from an 80-story building is worse than leaping from a 40-story building. But if both jumps kill ya, what does it matter?

 

Adam and Eve are as real as Frodo, Sam and Gandalf.

 

Thank you for that thoughtful insight. Next?

 

"I don't buy that. Using that logic you could say that a 10 year old that steals a bar of chocolate is every bit as bad as a mass murderer. Which, of course, is rediculous. One way of measuring the degree of badness of an act is to see how much pain has been caused by the act. Murdering not only causes pain for the person being murdered, with the pain of death and not being able to live anymore, but it also causes pain to the people that loved that person. Stealing a bar of chocolate doesn't cause much pain at all. Now, how much pain does being a homosexual cause to other people??"


Bubba's reply is correct. Sin is what causes ultimate death. All sin causes that "death", so all sin is equally evil. But I'd also like to add that the consequences of one sin can be far worse than the consequences of another, obviously. But evil is evil, like I said. And the punishment from one sin might be far worse than the punishment of another, because a lot of our punishment is simply the natural consequences of the sin we commit. So while in our eyes evil does seem to have different degrees, the Bible indicates that they're all equal.


But anyway...

 

Adam and Eve are as real as Frodo, Sam and Gandalf.

Until proven otherwise, yes.

Bubba If you're right, then every last human is going to hell.

 

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...

 

EDIT: Never mind, found the post.