PT How a child of the original Star Wars trilogy learned to love the prequels

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by WhiskeyGold, Nov 6, 2012.

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  1. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
  2. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Great, even-handed article. It's nice to see a former prequel-hater change his mind based on the positive reactions of his child.

    I've said it before, one of the problems with old SW fandom is the way they elevate the OT beyond reason and put it on a pedestal. It's their sacred holy text. Something that's completely beyond reproach, and which nothing new can ever compare to. A lot of fans actually get mad if you point out anything silly in the OT.

    Fact is, SW was a pulpy live action cartoon. It has stupid villains who are blatantly evil. That's not an insult, it's part of the fun. When I was a kid in the 90s, we all had a good time laughing about Stormtroopers who couldn't hit he broad side of a barn. Didn't mean we didn't love SW. Nitpicking everything in the prequels shows how much harder certain people are trying to make things seem bad.
  3. Sethian Eber Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    It is a good article, especially because I had a nearly identical experience and can relate to the author. It was kids who made me realize that the prequels were very much Star Wars films. Not very long ago I came to accept that these films were Star Wars through and through and move on. After I did that, I enjoyed the films and realized I was wrong all these years.

    Although I saw the OT at a very young age, I didn't really enjoy them until I was 11. I was 19 when TPM came out and my expectations were high. I had studied the new characters, plot speculation, purchased much of the merchandise, watched the trailers to death, etc. There was no way TPM could ever meet the high fanboy expectations I had and it didn't but there were parts that I enjoyed. I saw it again and theaters and really enjoyed it. Same thing with video. I went through a similar experience with AOTC but disliked it more. I could barely sit through ROTS and never bought it on DVD or watched it again. I disowned the films and stuck to the OT only, the infamous RLM reviews further made me dislike the films. By the time RLM got around to the third one, I started criticizing RLM. RLM's same logic could be applied to any in depth analysis of any film and was based mostly on opinion. They could easily have viewed the OT and made many of the same points instead of comparing 'flaws' of the PT to their interpreted 'perfect' examples in the OT. I've also developed a sense for detecting rhetoric when used deceptively and he used it a lot. After that, I slowly dismissed RLM's reviews even though people still love them.

    It was kids who made me re-think my position toward these films. To them, this was Star Wars. I started realizing that the flaws with dialogue and acting along with childish cartoony things are in the OT and we look past them. Even the reception was the same, mixed reviews, great box office receipts, average non-fanboy movie goers enjoyed them, kids loved them. It was primarily fans of the OT who were kids that had high expectations who were let down (which has been said since TPM).

    Bought the blu rays, put in TPM, cranked up the sound system, and I enjoyed it so much I watched all three in a row. I had mostly forgotten many of the details and all the characters and trailers I used to analyze extensively. I thought ROTS was an excellent movie, something I never thought the first time I saw it. I looked past the flaws just like I do with the OT. These are Star Wars films. The PT hating now seems quite ridiculous to me and based on group think herd mentality (it's fashionable to bash GL and the PT, especially in the context of RLM). GL made new SW films which is what fans wanted. Nothing could have ever met my high expectations. I began to respect and love the OT as an 11-year-old that could not notice the flaws my 19-year-old self could and looked past. I think if I saw TPM as an 11-year-old I would have held it to the same standard. Sorry for the tl;dr
  4. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    It's very cool to hear of former prequel haters realizing they never really gave them a fair shake, doing so, and seeing that they're actually great movies.

    Unfortunately, I suspect that most of the hateboys will never have the guts to follow your example.
  5. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I was once one of them. My heart has changed. Glad to be part of the Prequel Crowd Now.. Excalibur.............
  6. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    More and more people are getting burned out on all the hate and elitism. This "change of heart" appreciation of Star Wars as a complete Saga started with the re-release of TPM in 3D and it is still snowballing.

    People are just plain sick of living this way when it comes to Star Wars. People are sick and tired of living in this stubborn, constant state of regulated, strict religious bias and hate. More and more people are sick of being "directed" and "told" what is hip and geek-sheek enough.

    Ya wanna know why? Because PEOPLE LIKE STAR WARS.

    Thats why. At the end of the day its very simple. The first half of The Saga is every bit as much "Star Wars" as the 2nd half. People dont care about hateboy arguments. When someone makes a statement online and a hateboy reply's to them with what it is that they always reply with ([face_tired]) that persons opinion doesn't change even if he was shouted down.

    The bubble is bursting. What gos up must come down. The hateboys goal was always to let the whole world know their rhetoric and well...now that the whole world knows they are getting sick of it. They are getting sick of being "contained". They are getting sick of staying in their cage. They want to get out of the cage and see the world for what it is. Star Wars has a brighter future than ever before and people want to enjoy it rather than nit-pick and go crazy with hate for the next 10 years.

    In TPM 3D people were cheering and clapping at times. Do you remember the last time you were at a movie where people clapped and cheered? Do you remember the last time you went to a movie where kids and adults alike showed up dressed up as the characters in the movie? What else besides Star Wars produces this kind of mania and general community? I went to 8 screenings of TPM 3D in a few different theaters and that is what it was like. Everyone was happy, energized even. Because its Star Wars and thats what Star Wars does.

    All I know is I cant wait for AOTC and ROTS in 3D! [face_party][face_dancing]
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Nov 6, 2012
  7. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    It seems to me some bash the PT cause its the "cool thing to do"
  8. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    I think some people don't like the Prequel Trilogy movies (myself included) is because they come across as vapid and are objectively bad movies as far as cinema is concerned. That's solely my opinion. I mean, I enjoy them somewhat but they just come across as bad to me. I don't do it because it's the "cool thing to do" I do it because the script was just clunky and I found it really hard to like the main protagonist of the film. Along with other reasons that are valid and could be argued against...but not because it's the "cool thing to do".
    Cantina Bassist and sinkie like this.
  9. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Even if the PT is bad it's better than most summer movies like GI joe, Transformers, that last Terminator.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber and sinkie like this.
  10. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    I wouldn't even go that far. I think it's on par with GI Joe, Transformers and Terminator. Just another project to exploit your fans and cash in on some money.
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
  11. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    The "Lucas only wants to sell toys and make money" argument again.

    Lucas is a noted Hollywood outsider known for doing things his own way. He's one of the world's biggest philanthropists and has just pledged to donate the $4 billion he made from the Disney sale. He was in it to make the movies that he wanted to make.

    I don't buy your line of thought at all. Transformers is simplistic action. The prequels told a nuanced story about generational differences, the need to resist your own dark side, and how vulnerable democracy is when attacked by war and lies. It tackled far weightier issues than the OT. The first SW movie in 1977 is arguably a lot closer to fun, simple action without much of a deeper message.

    Is anyone going to argue that it was a pure commercial decision to comment on those things above? That Lucas wrote Anakin as a deeply troubled young man consumed by his issues over the course of three movies because that was where the money was?

    Saying that Lucas was only out to make money is basically an unsupported personal attack.
    Last edited by JimRaynor55, Nov 6, 2012
  12. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    No, it's my opinion and I am entitled to my opinion. I have no problem with Lucas making the PT. I came to terms with that a long time ago. But I reserve the right to have my own belief as to why he did it.

    That's not even a little bit true. The first opening shot of Star Wars is loaded with symbolism and is pretty bleak. Not "fun and simple".
    sinkie likes this.
  13. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Unfounded assumptions about what is going on in another person's mind is not a pure subjective "opinion." It's just that, an unfounded assumption.

    And while my intention is not to attack ANH because I like all the SW movies, I'd like you to explain this symbolism in its opening shot. Also, how that symbolism in the opening shot addresses a the statement that ANH was a fun and simple movie.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber and Samnz like this.
  14. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    So others are not allowed to assume some people dislike the Prequels because "it's cool to do" but you're allowed to accuse George Lucas of making the Prequels just "to sell toys and make money"? That doesn't work. It's the same principle.
    obi-rob-kenobi4 likes this.
  15. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Yes, you are. But by ingoring the facts, your opinion becomes objectively wrong.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Nov 7, 2012
  16. WhiskeyGold Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    I bet if you bring those movies back in 3D it would make a lot less than TPM in 3D
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  17. lordortheringssuck Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2004
    If Lucas was only in it for the money he wouldn't have made Episodes I-III his way.
  18. tuskinraiderfromhell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2004
    star 2
    They would have been about an aged Han Solo running around shooting at an aged Boba Fett, oh wait isn't that what so called "fans" want? Isn't that what we have to look forward too? I sure as Hell hope not! I don't want to see that in the new films. New characters, new story. But if Lucas was only doing Star Wars for the money this what we would have had back in 1999. I for one love that he followed HIS vision and gave us three more CLASSIC films.
  19. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    See though, this isn't helping. I actually love the stories of people who have changes of heart, I think that's a great thing, wish it could happen to me, and maybe someday it will. But regardless, someone going from hating them to liking or even loving them doesn't invalidate the opinion of those who don't have this change of heart, at least not in some sort of universal, automatic sense. I have made the journey through these years listening, arguing, hearing, changing my opinions and I still, at the end of the day, for all the good I can find in them, don't think they are very good films overall. Not that I think they were done this way on purpose, to sell toys, to make anyone angry or out of laziness or anything like that, simply because I don't find that the George (and team) that made these newer works succeeded in melding all the elements together to tell an engaging story for me. If, at this moment, I wanted to see them differently and have a change of heart you know what I'd have to call it? Not a coming to my senses but a moment of "lowered expectations". I would have to say, ok, I'll just cringe when I need to cringe but psyche myself up for the fun stuff and let it push away that other part of me that has issues with it. Is that right? Is that being any more truthful to myself? I would say no, it is not. Liking or hating them is not an indication in any way of ones sanity or ability to see the truth of the situation. It is still based on opinion and taste. The continual use of the argument that those that like the PT are mindless is just as abhorrent and idiotic as the one that says those that hate them are only doing it to be hip. This complete and utter oversimplification needs to stop so both sides can talk to each other and learn and grow. And if changes of heart continue, and go both ways, that's just the nature of the beast. It doesn't mean one side was ultimately right or wrong.
    darth.ender and KilroyMcFadden like this.
  20. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    If it's your opinion then it can't be objective. When it comes to cinema only technical things can be more or less objective (editing, scoring, effects). Everything else depends on whether you enjoy a movie or not. For example, the writing in ANH is corny and all three leads ham it up but most people don't mind it and probably even consider it part of the charm.

    I saw pretty much all major Scifi/fantasy/superhero movies in the past 12 years and almost all of them exhibit all of the weaknesses the PT has been accused of. LOTR has a lot of bad writing (which is especially a shame given the source material was written by a philologist), Spiderman's protagonist re can't act, The Dark Knight has a mess of a plot, the first two Harry Potter movies lack charm, etc. At times, it hampered my enjoyment of the movies, sometimes it didn't because I accepted it as part of the package.

    Maybe not you, but as Kevin Smith wrote even before TPM's backlash started "it will be fashionable to bash this flick". Now, why would he say it unless he knew the attitudes of adult fans, especially in the media and entertainment industry.
  21. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    There are obviously some out there whose opinions will be influenced by a desire to be "in the know". But just because Kevin Smith said this and then there was a backlash, doesn't make him right, especially for the majority of the backlash. He was simply accurately guessing that a backlash could occur. Now, could this be because he himself felt disappointment that he had to work to overcome? How would he "know" otherwise? If friends of his around him were going, wow, that was a stinker and some that seemed to be sitting on the fence went, um, yeah, it kind of was wasn't it. Could he really be sure that was a "fashionable" change of heart or was it just fence sitters who wanted to like it having to admit they really couldn't get behind it without being somewhat dishonest with themselves? I don't know, but for that very reason I would have trouble saying Kevin Smith saw into the hearts and minds of all those who have issues with it. If some other public figure had stood up at the time and said "There will be a backlash against this because it is not as good as the originals" would they have been right about the reasons for the backlash? No. They would simply have been making an educated guess as to why it might happen. Once again, trying to tar everyone with the same brush gets us nowhere. I have definitely learned this the hard way sometimes over the years myself. It really does insult and do a disservice to the variety of opinion out there and undermines the uniqueness of us all. It is ultimately, when pushed to its logical conclusions, a dangerous way of thinking.
    Last edited by sinkie, Nov 7, 2012
  22. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    It goes without saying that Lucas is a shrewd businessman (just securing merchandising rights to ANH was a stroke of genius - of course, not even him could have predicted the immense success of Star Wars). However, if all he cared about was money, he could have continued making more Star Wars movies after ROTJ instead of mothballing the whole thing for more than a decade. He didn't even had to write, direct or produce them himself. Hire the right people and reap the rewards, piece of cake. (Who else thinks that if EP I was released in 1986 with the same script/acting, it would have been received much better?)

    It was actually the fans who wanted more Star Wars - prequels, sequels, related products like games, etc. The Special Editions' success confirmed the demand existed among fans and general public. Sure, the prequels didn't meet many people's expectations - but it's not the cause to accuse Lucas of "exploiting the fan base". After all, the same can be said about any of the sequels to the original Star Wars: that movie was actually self-contained and didn't really need a sequels. Lucas didn't even know where the story was going after it.
    obi-rob-kenobi4 likes this.
  23. Mnhay27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 1
    I guess this requires some clarification. Disliking or even hating the prequels does not make one a hateboy. Being one of those idiotic douchebags who goes out of their way to spoil other peoples enjoyment of the PT - by hyjacking and disrupting forums and discussions with their "Lucas raped my childhood/if you like the prequels you're retarded" garbage - does.
  24. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    Thanks for the clarification!
  25. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    I'm not hijacking a forum. Someone said that people hated the prequel trilogies because it was "cool to do" and I explained that I dislike the trilogies for other reasons. There seems to be a common idea that people who dislike the prequels are "hateboys" or "are just trying to be cool" or aren't "real star wars fans" and I don't think that's true. If you like the PT I'm cool with that. I'm just saying that disliking them doesn't mean that I'm a hateboy or just trying to be a hipster.
    sinkie likes this.
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