Lit How about a Light side type of villain?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Shira_French_Cheese, Nov 14, 2012.

  1. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    Which is precisely how GL states it in The Making of Episode I. For metaphysics buffs, I tend to use "Transcendent" and "Immanent" when talking respectively about the Unifying Force and the Living Force.

    We also now have the most concrete evidence ever that the dark and light sides of the Force are interdependent polarities in the Living Force from the Mortis episodes. What with it's giant Yin/Yang diagram. Which is what the Dark Empire Sourcebook had always said, and RPG books before them.

    I've speculated that it could be not that way, but it is and that's sort of the end of that.
    Last edited by Dawud786, Nov 18, 2012
    Arawn_Fenn likes this.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    So I think we can safely say that on this issue the JATM is wrong and the other sources are right.

    Sorry, Wookieepedia. :p
    Dawud786 likes this.
  3. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I wonder what would have happened if Son died and Daughter lived...
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Nov 19, 2012
  4. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    ^They all died. That was sort of the point. If one goes out of whack the whole order of the universe does.
  5. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    But what would an out-of-control Light Side look like?
    darklordoftech likes this.
  6. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    Who can say? From the qualities associated with the light side of the Force, I'd say it's not really in the nature of the light side to become out of control. It's theoretically possible, but highly unlikely.
  7. San-Tarah Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    I guess some people within the Star Cabal considered themselves Light Side.
    Esg likes this.
  8. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Depends, really. They'd not do anything stereotypically EEEEEVVIIIIIILLL like a jabbering nutjob, but -- evil drugs company aside -- Miracle Day was a good example from Torchwood of how "healing people" isn't always in their best interest.

    Certainly, you could argue "saving them" was a selfish, dark side act, and, yeah, that's definitely true using Cade's evil dark side power, but if Cade went around being a saint using his light side power to save everyone he could, there'd come a point where that wasn't actually good for society, and only caused more pain in the big picture.
  9. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    That's true and that's why Jedi who intend to remain true to the light have to be careful about how much Force power they use, because eventually they stop applying the necesary judgment to handle it properly and it becomes an act of darkness and they slip over without realizing it. In a way this is what happened to Jacen, who became so convinced that he could fix the universe that he changed from being supportive to being domineering.

    The trick I think, has to do with the nature of simple vs. complex systems. The scenario of total dark triumph is a simple system - ultimate entropic triumph, the heat death of the universe or perhaps its total implosion, but regardless completely undifferentiated nothingness.

    The scenario of total light side triumph is a complex system: some sort of perfectly peaceful, perfectly creative, perfectly just, perfectly loving galaxy. I'm not even sure what that would be, never mind how it could be achieved, but it is clearly not simplifistic. It's not just pumping endless quantities of endless 'good' energy into the system.

    As a result Jedi, and other light side oriented Force-users, have to be very careful about how they use their powers, because pumping too much energy into any complex system, regardless of its direction, can be destabilizing. This is, I think, the basis behind Obi-Wan's 'Only a Sith believes in absolutes!' line in ROTS.
    Gamiel, Jedi Ben and Arawn_Fenn like this.
  10. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    my bold
    I can not see Pages of Pain so can you explain how it is a good example? Bitte
    Last edited by Gamiel, Aug 19, 2013
  11. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Okay, um...spoiler alert for anyone who ever wants to read Pages of Pain.

    Anyway...

    Pages of Pain takes the perspective of the Lady of Pain, who is the source of all pain, physical and emotional, experienced by all beings in the multiverse. The ivine powers of good and evil both seek to capture the Lady through various schemes in order to have control over all pain, rather than distributing pain indiscriminately to everyone she encounters as the Lady does. The Lady's internal monologue posits that the success of either Evil or Good in this effort would destroy the multiverse - Evil by creating a world of endless unending agony for all things, and Good by creating a world completely without strife, conflict, or development, where as a result, nothing meaningful ever happens.

    Almost this exact same argument is made at the conclusion of the Wheel of Time series, when Rand and the Dark One compare hypothetical futures depending on the outcome of their battle. The only real difference is that while in the WoT version the universe is perfectly dualistic with two sides constantly at war for all eternity, in D&D there is a third side - the 'neutral' side, in this case personified by the Lady, that somehow embraces the place balanced between good and evil.

    In the Mortis version of Star Wars the Lady's role would be played by the Father.
  12. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    Thanks:)
  13. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Star Wars isn't dualistic. It's a dialectical monism. Balance isn't neutrality. Balance is the realization that the two sides are complementary opposites to a whole.
    VanishingReality and HWK-290 like this.
  14. HWK-290 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2013
    star 2
    [IMG]
  15. Auditor Dredd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 4
    @HWK-290, there's no shoulder pad in that pic, that's like asking for a PBJ sandwich and just getting bread
    Last edited by MasterSkywalker86, Aug 19, 2013
  16. HWK-290 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2013
    star 2
    Unlike most people, the Katarn I grew up with had an Asian cant to his face, the voice of a god*, and an arsenal sufficient for single-handedly taking over the Executor. This consummate badass was then swapped in for Court's heartwarmingly campy jock full of one-liners, and I adored him, too.

    The shoulder pad only took off after the hard-as-diamonds beard did, catapulting Kyle into Chuck Norris territory along with Bennet's grating voice. Damned shame, really. Court gave him so much more depth.

    But since you insist, THE SHOULDER PAD.**

    [IMG]

    To bring this back around to the topic, the closest you'll probably see to a light-side villain is
    Show Spoiler
    SWTOR's Revan. Hi, I'm a Jedi, I'm also about to wipe out 97% of the entire galactic population. See you on the other side!




    * I love you, Nick Jameson.
    ** The classic Dark Forces jacket is still loads better.
    Last edited by HWK-290, Aug 19, 2013
    MasterSkywalker86 likes this.
  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I'd suggest that the Jedi order in Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi are light side villains.

    They are truly terrible people.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Aug 19, 2013
    Zeta1127 and Havac like this.
  18. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Fixed. ;)
  19. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    It was more than Saba that instigated a coup.
  20. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    they are not bad, they are just written that way
  21. HWK-290 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2013
    star 2
    Hamner, 35 BBY - 44 ABY, 2000 - 2010. Never Forget.
    Revanfan1 likes this.
  22. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I didn't see the coup as a bad thing–Daala was a villain and deserved to be treated as such. Sure, putting a Jedi in an authority role in the Triumvirate was wrong–especially Saba, of all people–but the coup itself had to happen. Crushing slave revolts? That's an Empire thing, not something that should be going on in the Galactic Alliance.

    And this. It's because Denning. [face_plain]
  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    It's the job of the Jedi to remove people from office that got there legitimately if they decide that they're villains?
  24. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well, no. I think the problem is the authors of FOTJ tried to evoke a ROTS feel to the coup story–replacing Saba, Leia, and Han for Mace, Kit, Saesee, and Agen. The only problem is, while Daala was a bad guy, she was not the same ultimate evil that was Palpatine–she wasn't mind influencing the Senate or anyone else in any way. Palpatine needed to be removed; in Daala's case, the Jedi just needed to patiently wait it out. She only had a year left to her term by Conviction anyways; one year wouldn't have killed the Jedi and with Daala still in charge Abeloth might not've gotten that position.
  25. Chessalvakia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 2006
    star 1
    Couldn't one create a force user/group of them that decided the Hero's were the cause of the galaxies problems and decide to arrest them one at a time for their past crimes and dropping them off unconscious with evidence and video messages while remaining anonymous?

    I believe at this point many of the Hero's have committed their share of crimes along the way that perhaps could justify the existence of said faction.

    While some planets would let them go others might be less willing to do so. If justice was not applied couldn't they force strip the Jedi without going DS and perhaps dig into those that let the Jedi go after capture and hold them accountable for their crimes if they have committed any?