How are we supposed to view Obi-Wan and Yoda in the CT?

skgai1 · Apr 12, 2007

How, as an audience, are we supposed to view Obi-Wan and Yoda in Episodes IV, V and VI? Obviously after ANH everyone loves Obi-Wan. They think's he's amazing, but was that how Obi-Wan really was. Or was that just how was perceived? Is Yoda an all-knowing figure and should Luke have hinged on his every word. To be honest, after watching the CT as a kid and teenager I thought that Obi-Wan and Yoda weren't exactly right all the time, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Now after having watched the PT I've been able to come up with the answers, but I think it's still debatable. I thought I'd pull a few comments from several differnt topics to get us going:

Cryogenic said:

This might also explain Yoda's absolutist stance later on: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Twisted, by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become." In a sense, he's actually right -- the boy *is* gone, for Anakin is now essentially a man; the boy can never really come back. The boy was the idealistic and naive (and secretly attached and power-hungry) being that Darth Vader becomes. So there's no such thing as "little Ani" anymore. No more emaciating names for the Dark Lord! When Anakin "returns" in ROTJ, it's really his virtuous side returning -- the IDEALISED side of him that Obi Wan and Padme spoke of -- but not the boy. There's no naivete in Anakin anymore: "Nothing can stop that now..." Anyway, where was I? Yoda's absolutist stance stems from being cut off; he's talking about the whole circle from his portion of it, not realising that the other piece that's now adrift -- i.e. Anakin / the Dark Side -- joins with his and forms the whole. Yoda cannot SEE that yet. Obi Wan can't see it, either ... BUT ... through his own ATTACHMENT to Anakin, he has a more cautious / compassionate outlook. But Obi Wan ultimately believes himself to be wrong. So the two sort of fall in line again, maybe reserving the possibility -- because of the fact they're humbled through failure -- that there's another way, never quite accepting that fully until Luke does what he does. Luke and Leia are acts of grace, so Yoda and Obi Wan have to think twice, slowly and surely coming to embrace the whole circle again, but really needing Luke to recover the circle and seal the gap fully. It's all about interconnectedness. We like to pretend that life is a game of sides, and the opposing sides invariably matter less in that myopic view. Here's an example: I doubt many people in the Western would cry about a nuclear exchange in the Middle East, but if it happened, the WHOLE PLANET would feel the effects and could be plunged into nuclear winter. "You and the Naboo form a SYMBIONT CIRCLE. What happens to one of you will affect the other. You must understand this."
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If Cryogenic's symbiont circle theory is correct, and I believe it is, than Obi and Yoda can't be all-knowing and completly wise can they?

obironsolo said:

I agree with everything you say above, except for the last part.

You question whether it's possible that Luke and Padme could know something that Jedi Masters like Yoda and Obi Wan did not see. On the surface, I see your complaint...but...

Rather than say Lucas was making it up as he went and all that (which certainly may be valid), I'd explain it a different way.

The Jedi code about not having attachments was flawed. Not just in this instance, but in many.

Examples)
1) When little Annie went before the council, the Jedis were total jerks to him. Here's this little kid, he doesn't have the Padawan training, and they're treating him like he does. He's ten. Compliment him on his talents, don't accuse him of being afraid. This first meeting between Annie and the Jedi Council certainly played a major part in his fall.

2) When Shmi dies in Anakin's arms, the Jedi were totally unequipped to deal with it. They had no understanding of what loss means to a normal, emotional person.

3) When Anakin comes to Yoda for advice, Yoda clearly demonstrates that he doesn't get it. Never having been in love himself, Yoda gives his Padawan ridicul
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Master_Starwalker · Apr 12, 2007

I think that we're supposed to view them as Jedi who have adjusted moved beyond the flaws of the Old Order(due in large part to their embracing Qui-Gon's instruction and achieving what was necessary to become a Force Ghost and transcend 'this crude matter.') They're still not perfect because after all they're still human and frog-thing, but they're while not all-knowing certainly supposed to be wise and good mentors, who succeeded with Luke where they failed with Anakin.

I think it's something that has changed over time as before the Prequels I think we were supposed to basically see Obi-Wan as one sees Gandalf and Yoda as the prototypical wrinkled old wise man(especially since had Lucas not decided to kill Obi-Wan in ANH, there would have been no need for Yoda, so the similarities between their roles in the story of the CT is largely due to that.) Yoda also exemplifies Ben's earlier quote "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." given that back in '80, your first impression of Yoda is that of a crazy and primitive alien, not a wise and humble Jedi Master.

So the substance of Yoda and Ben is the same, but I think in light of the Prequels Lucas intends them to be improved from their pasts, whereas I don't think that was intended back in the 70's/80's.

Eggrert · Apr 13, 2007

The discrepencies b/n what we're shown in the two trilogies always bothered me, but now I think it can be explained by saying that much of the "change" has to do with the destruction of the corrupt, restrictive Jedi order. Without worrying about politics, and with twenty years to meditate, train, and communicate with Qui-Gon, Yoda and Obi-Wan are bound to improve.

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How are we supposed to view Obi-Wan and Yoda in the CT?

skgai1 Jedi Youngling

Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus VIP - Former Mod/RSA

Eggrert Jedi Youngling