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How big was the Imperial Starfleet?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Naboo1, Nov 23, 2003.

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  1. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    Going by the stats given on TOS and other sources, I'm using these as a basis:

    Death Star 1: 12,500 Turbolaser and Laser Cannon emplacements. (i've ignored ion cannon stats for now)

    Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (as I'm assuming the bulk of the starfleet at the time of ANH were still ISD-I's, not ISD-II's): 60 Turbolasers.

    So, if the Death Star represented "more than half" the firepower of the Imperial starfleet...

    We double the DS1's stat of 12,500 and get 25,000.

    Now, divided by the weapons compliment of an ISD-I (60), we get about 416.

    So, let's say, as a ballpark figure, Dodonna's line implies about 400 Star Destroyers.
     
  2. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    Intriguing conclusion! :) I wonder, though, how the official site came up with those numbers? :confused:
     
  3. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    There's a Star Destroyer hovering over Skywalker Ranch. :D
     
  4. JediMasterChiefYoda

    JediMasterChiefYoda Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 8, 2003
    If /\ is true, the answer is easy. They counted:)
     
  5. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    The stats likely originate from the WEG RPG, but I'd imagine that their figures are at least partially based upon inspection of the models.
     
  6. Errant_Venture

    Errant_Venture Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Very interesting way to reach a ISD number Quest, very interesting indeed.

    But what about Solo's line of "It would take more firepower than the entire starfleet combined", which implies that 400 ISDs are not enough to elimanate Alderaan.
     
  7. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    Oh, yeah. Mr. "less than 12 Parsecs" himself. :p

    Besides, what would he know about blowing up planets? :D
     
  8. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    Well, again, this is under the assumption that Dodonna was referring to the DS1's defensive capabilities (ie: it's turbolasers, etc), not the super-laser... so Han's line still works- he's just describing a different aspect of the DS1's capabilities than Dodonna was.
     
  9. Grand Admiral Wettengel

    Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jan 10, 2000
    Binary,

    For help on learning the defensive firepower of the DS, search for DEATH STAR TECHNICAL COMPANION. I'm sure someone has posted the info from that old WEG sourcebook. If I still had mine, I'd look it up for you, but I sold all my WEG books three years ago.

    I'd also like to bring up something else about the probots. I'm sure Captain Piett and Admiral Ozzel did not view every piece of footage taken by a probe--such a detailed analysis would have taken thousands of hours just to look at all the material, without doing any sort of analysis. Therefore, only the most probable reports would make come to the attention of Piett and Ozzel. The Executor's computers probably filtered out most of the reports, bumbing ones that might be possible locations to intel analysts who would than look it over more thoroughly. Than the image would flow up the chain of command in the intel section, until the head of the section saw fit to send the most probable leads to Ozzel and Piett.
     
  10. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    The Death Star has a superlaser. I don't know how many times more powerful than a turbolaser it is, but when Han says the "more firepower..." line, he's referring to the fact that Alderaan was completely destroyed. The Death Star did not use any of its turbolasers to destroy planets, so comparing its number of turbolasers/lasers to an ISD-I's number of turbolasers is the wrong way to go about analyzing Solo's comment.
     
  11. Grand Admiral Wettengel

    Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jan 10, 2000
    Also, why are oyu all taking Han's word as gospel for the strength of the Imperial Navy? Itisn't like he was an admiral and retired to take upthe life of a smuggler. Han Solo would not be in a position to know the detailed OB of the Imperial Navy.
     
  12. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    "I'd also like to bring up something else about the probots. I'm sure Captain Piett and Admiral Ozzel did not view every piece of footage taken by a probe--such a detailed analysis would have taken thousands of hours just to look at all the material, without doing any sort of analysis. Therefore, only the most probable reports would make come to the attention of Piett and Ozzel. The Executor's computers probably filtered out most of the reports, bumbing ones that might be possible locations to intel analysts who would than look it over more thoroughly. Than the image would flow up the chain of command in the intel section, until the head of the section saw fit to send the most probable leads to Ozzel and Piett."

    Which assumes, of course, that Lucas took all this into account when writing the dialogue. I prefer to take the films at face value, myself.

    Funny that, if this were to be the case, then Ozzel would certainly be aware of the importance of a report that was filtered through this entire process, and yet he still blew it off. Either the system doesn't work in this manner, or Ozzel knows more about the limitations of the system than you do. ;)

    "Han Solo would not be in a position to know the detailed OB of the Imperial Navy."

    ...much less the DS, which is completely new to him.
     
  13. Grand Admiral Wettengel

    Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jan 10, 2000
    It wouldn't be the first time that a commander has disregarded intelligence. There could be a whole load of explanations about this: Ozzel has some sort of personal bias against intel officers, there is an institutional bias in the Imperial Navy--postings in intelligence could well have lead to few prospects for promotions. Than there's the idea that intel personnel are not combat commanders, and that combat commanders might view their reports with skepticism.

    Unfortunately, Lucas shows through the films that his grasp of military strategy and tactics is nearly zero, so its very doubtful that he would even know how to properly portray a massive military organization like the Empire.

     
  14. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    "Unfortunately, Lucas shows through the films that his grasp of military strategy and tactics is nearly zero, so its very doubtful that he would even know how to properly portray a massive military organization like the Empire. "

    Would you still say this if he used your example of what could have happened?

    Besides, the films are not about military strategy. If that's what you are looking for, read EU or the numerous Jane's books.
     
  15. JediMasterChiefYoda

    JediMasterChiefYoda Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 8, 2003
    The way I took the whole Ozzel/Piett scence is that there is a lot of political infighting in the Empire, and its every officer for himself. Piett finding the report was bad enough for Ozzel, but it was brought to his attention with Lord Vader hearing it. Since Ozzel has already failed Vader at least once prior to the movie, I think he was more concerned with redeeming his name, and hoping to use the search for the base to help, then he was on helping those underneth him advance (anyway, another Admiral would have been more compition for the job of Grand Admiral).

    So, basically, Ozzel was a bad officer at least on three counts. First, he placed his own personal objectives over the military's (and to make it worse, Vader was on the ship, too). Second, it seems like he wasn't concerned on his underlings getting promoted. Having been in the military, and having had a bad LPO (Leading Petty Officer) and a good LCPO (Leading Chief Petty Officer), I can personally vouch for had bad a bad leader can be for one's career. My bad LPO is the one of the primary reasons I didn't re-enlist in the US Navy. Third, he didn't take his underlings serious. Piett seems like a good officer, but Ozzel blew him off when Piett brought him a concern of his. If the Imperial Navy is anything like our (US) Navy, it takes about 20 years of service to make captain, so anyone in that long would know what to take to an Admiral and what not to. Ozzel was a very busy man, in charge of every aspect of the fleet; one thing he didn't have time for was to look at the reports from the probe droids. C'mon, Piett was a busy man, as CO of the Executor. I'm willing to bet either a low ranking officer or an enlisted man was the first to notice something with the Hoth droid and just sent it up. I doubt that the Executor was the only ship dropping the probots ("We have thousands of probes searching the galaxy"), so at least hundreds of destroyers were dispatching them, IMHO. The report made it to Piett, along with other leads. Piett probably saw summeries of the reports (ie, nothing in thirty-seven systems; with a listing of systems. One lead in the Hoth system). He followed up on the lead, noticed that something was out of place, and took his concern to his boss. However, I think he was wrong to do it in front of Lord Vader (which makes me think there was infighting. He was thinking (partiacally, at least) of his career.

    Also, the fact that the Imperial Navy was spread at the beginning of ESB looking for the Rebellion's Hidden Base indicates that there was at least a couple of thousand ships. The GFFA was a big place, much to big to look for something with only 400 ships (never mind 27!) Personally, I think that they had to cover at least 1/4th of the habitally systems at a time (not just the ones with intellegent, space-faring life) just to make it difficult at best for the Rebellion to establish new bases (something I would bet they were always doing for when one was discovered and routed out). So, if we could figure out how many habittalbe worlds there are in the GFFA, I think that one be one part of figuring out how big the Imperial fleet really is.
     
  16. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    "Also, the fact that the Imperial Navy was spread at the beginning of ESB looking for the Rebellion's Hidden Base indicates that there was at least a couple of thousand ships."

    So they have the same number of SD's as they do probes? I saw quite a few probes coming out of that lone SD. Surely, it's not the only one with probes.

    Other than that, I think your reasoning for Ozzel and Piet makes more sense. The films are about characters, not military strategy.
     
  17. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek

    Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling star 10

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    Jul 9, 1999
    Let's try another method. The ISD at the beginning of ESB launched 6 probe droids, IIRC. Since Ozzel mentions that there are thousands of probe droids out there, we can divide 2000 by 6 to get an approximate fleet size: 333. 2000 is the minimum number of probe droids, but there could easily be many more.
     
  18. Grand Admiral Wettengel

    Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Jan 10, 2000
    Yoda,

    There most certainly was political infighting in the Empire, as in any corrupt, totalatarian system. And Piett was most definitely thinking about his career. Now, whether or not he knew that Ozzel would dismiss the Hoth intel is unknown (or maybe its in the novelization? I don't know since I don't read movie novelizations), but announcing the lead in Lord Vader's presence was obviously a way for Piett to score brownie points with Vader. And wanting to ingratiate yourself to your superiors is nothing new; especially a man as powerful as Vader, whose patronage would be coveted by any member of the Imperial Armed Forces.

    MeBe,


    EDIT:

    Seeing a chain of command in place to fitler through intel certainly would have been welcome.
     
  19. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    Piett: "It's the best lead we've had all day."

    Seems he did exactly that. Nonetheless, Ozzel was unimpressed.

    Keep in mind Ozzel's screw-up coming into Hoth. I think Ozzel's competence is put more into question in these scenes than Piett's.
     
  20. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    >>The Death Star did not use any of its turbolasers to destroy planets, so comparing its number of turbolasers/lasers to an ISD-I's number of turbolasers is the wrong way to go about analyzing Solo's comment.<<

    I wasn't using it to compare Solo's comment, I was using those statsitics to analyse Dodonna's.
     
  21. JediMasterChiefYoda

    JediMasterChiefYoda Jedi Master star 3

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    Aug 8, 2003
    Remember, I said ealier the Empire would have to send a probe droid to every habitable system. Someone earlier said that there was (if I interrupted right) that there was about 2000 habitable worlds. That is debunked by AotC, when Lord Tryannus says more then 10,000 other systems will rally to his cause. I think that the Empire have one SD for every 4th habitalbe (not necassary habitted) planet, for no other reason to make it hard for the Rebellion to move at will without worrying about running into an SD. Granted, planets like Yavin, Endor, and Dagobah aren't going to be visited much (if at all) execpt as a place for war games, but the concertration has to be there.

    For example, if I were to reason there one million habitable worlds, then I would say that the Empire had 250,000. That's my theory, and I know it flys in the face of the EU, but it's what I believe.
     
  22. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    ...I was using those statsitics to analyse Dodonna's.

    My memory is failing me. What did he say?
     
  23. Defiance

    Defiance Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Jul 16, 1999
    Death Star 1: 12,500 Turbolaser and Laser Cannon emplacements. (i've ignored ion cannon stats for now)

    I've never seen this figure. I've been trying to get visuals which indicate turbolaser density per area and extrapolate a figure based on visual evidence. 12,500 turbolasers seems very small, especially given the surface area. A ship would be able to encounter large areas of no weapons.
     
  24. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    "for no other reason to make it hard for the Rebellion to move at will without worrying about running into an SD."

    Yet they were searching the entire galaxy with probes. Go figure.
     
  25. jedi_john_33

    jedi_john_33 Jedi Master star 7

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    Sep 26, 2003
    well, probes are small, destructible and more resourceful. with the rebels alert to their presence, it could help the fleet strategize around it all, especially with the rebels all up in arms.
     
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