"How can later novel force users sense force presence in non trained & 2 stronger force users can't?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by wawa00s, Feb 23, 2010.

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  1. wawa00s Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2010
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    Very simple Question that didn'r fit on the subject line..
    "How is it that Force Users in later novels can sense force presence in non-trained or not offical training, but two of the more powerful if not one of the most powerful force users couldn't?"

    This question was brought about by the other thread I posted about Luke/Leia being hidden from Vader....

    I still cant wrap my head around the fact that in later novels Luke was able to sense force presence in non trained people...Someone even asked how could Palpatine have killed his master while he slept when the master should have felt him...Another error...In Truce luke felt the force in Dev..and Luke wasn't heavly trained at the time he was learning on the fly kinda....Leia felt the force in ( I 4get her name) a Mon Cal healer that later joins the Yavin Academy and goes on to Bcome a master and Leia didn't have much training..

    You are telling me that Palpatine and The Choosen One could not do the same thing...i would think that not only could they sense the force in people( and they had to have been able to sense the force considering that after Order 66 they continued to wipe out the Jedi where ever they found them..And not all Jedi where know or on the lists that Luke found at the start of the (Thanks to the person that reminded me of the title) Jedi Academy Trilogy.

    Vader sensed that "the force is strong in this one" refering to Luke in the trenches of Death Star1..so he could sense it there why not earlier while Luke was still on the surface of Tatooine or flying around the galaxy in Vaders wake??????????

    Things that make you say HhhhhhUuuuuuMmmmmmm
  2. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Sep 23, 1999
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    It may have to do with physical and/or emotional proximity too, as well as whether the subject is being masked by some Force power or presence (Yoda on Dagobah, presumably Palpatine with Plagueis).

    Vader didn't notice Luke's Force presence prior to the Death Star events because (1) he was far away from Luke, (2) Luke didn't mean anything to him at the time, as he didn't know his child had survived, and/or (3) Luke was untrained and so his presence didn't feel any stronger than anyone else who was mildly Force-sensitive in the galaxy. Maybe in order to notice anything weaker in the Force than, say, a potential or actually trained Jedi, one has to be actively looking?

    Remember, in ROTJ Palpatine doesn't sense Luke on the shuttle or on Endor, while Vader does. Palpatine seems to insinuate that this has to do with Vader's "feelings" (though whether he means he thinks that Vader sensing Luke is wishful thinking on Vader's part or that Vader can sense Luke because the conflict within him is growing is unclear).

  3. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    "Strange... that I did not."

    ***

    Yeah, the whole "detecting other Force-sensitives" is wholly inconsistent.
  4. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    Well, for that quote there, Vader might already have more of a bond with Luke than the Emperor does, just due to the events of Cloud City. Force Bonds are really funky that way.

    And reading through the Coruscant Nights books, I hit upon something interesting that might explain how Vader sensed the Force in Luke during the Trench Run while Vader and the Emperor might not sense it in Leia- it seems that it's much easier to sense someone if they're reaching into the Force deeply enough to sense YOU.

    Luke, in using the Force to evade Vader's shots- meaning he'd have to sense Vader's intent to some degree beforehand- would thus show up much more easily on Vader's Force-radar, whereas Leia, who has no trained ability to do so, wouldn't.

    Better yet, this would also explain Dev Sibwarra, as he is explicitly used by the Ssi-Ruu to seek out targets and calm them during entechment, and if I recall that scene correctly (my copy of TAB is lost in the black hole that is my room ATM), Dev is actually reading Luke as Luke is doing the same to Dev.

    This might even explain the bit with the Solo twins, since the Thrawn trilogy describs Leia, Jaina, and Jacen reaching out to each other with the Force quite frequently.

    If context is important, this came up when Jax Pavan is thinking about ways to use the Force while staying off Vader's radar- things like subtle mnd tricks and telekinesis might not show up at a distance, but actively trying to sense him is a two-way street.

    Thoughts?
  5. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Meditate on this, I will.
    :D

    The other side to this coin is that Palpatine didn't/couldn't sense Yoda...
    I know about the cave, but really... they used to have tea together in the Chancellor's Office... So its not like Sidious was oblivious to Yoda's "Force Signature" or whatever its called.

    Vader picked up Obi-Wan's "Force-scent" almost immediately across the Death Star.
    But Luke hid 15 feet away from him in ROTJ... yet while in hiding, Vader probed his mind.

    So... "the sensing of others" has pretty-much always been all over the board.
  6. marmkid Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2001
    star 4
    I think Luke and Vader did create a really strong Force bond during Cloud City


    I think though that Yoda was basically just meditating, not really doing anything that Force powerful while on Dagobah
    Plus he was how far away from Coruscant?
    I think if you are on a different planet, and are reasonably well trained, it is not that hard to believe that you wouldnt be sending Force Signature messages across the galaxy for everyone to feel

    It sounds more and more like Obi won and Yoda basically sat in their huts and talked with Qui gon's ghost all day and not much else

    Didnt Obi won know he would be meeting up with Vader, so i doubt he was hiding himself much

    I think Luke in RotJ was concentrating very hard on keeping his physical presence hidden from Vader, but while doing so, left himself open for Vader to probe his mind.

    Yeah, it really always has been
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's important that Luke is actively using the Force in this scene, and at this point in the timeline Leia does not consciously use the Force, having received no training and being unaware of her Force potential. In the prequels, Qui-Gon doesn't sense Anakin's Force potential just by entering Watto's shop; in fact, he doesn't see anything special about Anakin until he hears about the podracing. Similarly, the Jedi don't seem to sense Palpatine's Force potential by simple proximity, and he doesn't seem to use the Force in their presence.
  8. Manisphere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    I always thought that was deliberate on Obi-Wan's part. He separated from the group quickly and was hoping to lead Vader from Han and Luke.

    But about Vader not sensing Leia. Well, that's because it wasn't decided that Liea would be Luke's twin at that point. She was just "the princess" of the story. I think if Lucas had developed the Force to the ESB or ROTJ point he might have had Vader get a beat on Leia's force ablilty. Cause honestly, it is kind of silly that Vader doesn't sense that she has Force ability on par with his.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Vader already sensed his presence while he was still in the smuggling compartment, before he even left the ship.
  10. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Bingo. The truth behind this nonsense is that Leia wasn't Force sensitive to begin with, let alone Vader's daughter... so all that we're debating is post-script add-ons to the original story.

    But hey, at least its fun.;)
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But Luke was Force-sensitive to begin with, and Vader didn't sense his strength in the Force until he was actively using it, not when he was hiding or even running around on the DS.
  12. Manisphere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    Yeah, I knew someone would get me with that one. So with that I'll throw in the whole power of the master/apprentice force bond aguement...and Obi-wan was trying to draw Vader away from Han and Luke. :p
  13. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    I'll second that. It's always seemed to me that Force bonds are much more precise and sensitive than just random telepathy or sensing someone else. For example, normal telepathy is more feelings, just really vague, whereas Force bonds more often include actual words, sentence fragments, and SPECIFIC images and sensations. It also seems like the stronger the bond, the more specific you can get over it- I recall a few passages from Survivor's Quest where Luke and Mara practically 'talk' through the Force, and it's commented that they CAN be this specific only BECAUSE of their bond.

    It can also come almost to COMPLETELY unbidden, too, as per KOTOR 2, so I have NO problem imagining this is why Vader immediately knows Kenobi's on board- Kenobi can't cut off their bond at this close proximity without cutting hismelf off from the Force.
  14. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Third.

    And a bonus option, that Kenobi wanted to distract Vader from finding out that she was also his daughter.;)
    With her being in the cellblock and all, and Ben's familiarity with Sith-Interogation methods (Dooku)...
    I'm sure he feared that it was only a matter of time before Vader figured it out. The prisoner's blood samples, must've been lost, midichlorian and dna tests... completely botched. No wonder Vader administered the truth serum, personally.

    Imp-medics and lab-tech's must've been getting choked right and left back in the day on the DS.
  15. Rew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2008
    star 4
    This is something that's always bothered me. Watch Episodes III and IV back to back, and it should jump out at you unmistakably. Episode III so plays up Anakin's bond/obsession with Padme to absurd extents, such that she is almost the sole reason that he becomes Darth Vader. She is literally the fulcrum upon which his fall to the dark side turns, the centerpiece of the entire plot.

    Oh, and remember at the beginning of the film when she first announces to Anakin that she's pregnant? The producers deliberately put Padme's hair in a Leia-bun hairstyle just as a shout-out.

    Take that disc out and now put in Episode IV. Very early in the film we get Vader confronting Leia on the Tantive IV (then later in the Death Star). And...nothing. Nothing jumps out to Vader at all about this girl who looks just like Padme (even wearing the same hair that she sometimes did) and just coincidentally being approximately the same age as someone who would've been born at the time of Padme's death. Not at all during Vader's several encounters with her in ANH nor in TESB do we get the vaguest hint of any sort of bond between them or that Vader detects anything even remotely special or familiar about her (unlike with Luke, whom he does pick up on). Heck, he's even raping her mind on the Death Star with his interrogation, and he--the vaunted, all-powerful Chosen One--still seems to miss what should've been a monumental surge in the Force when he's finally face to face with his biological daughter! He never has so much as a clue until the final battle over Endor and at his death. (And even then, he may not be aware that Luke's sister is Leia exactly even then--it's not confirmed he knows until he visits her as a Force ghost in The Truce at Bakura.)

    I mean, if you read Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Bail Organa is veritably pissing all over himself to hide baby Leia when he finds out Vader's making an unexpected appearance on Alderaan. He understands well the power of Force bonds/recognitions. And yet there is Vader standing toe to toe with this same Leia years later when she's 19 and detects absolutely nothing.

    (Sorry, this has been a sore point for me for much too long. :p)

    Yeah, yeah, I know. A New Hope was made in 1977, so these finer plot points had yet to be completed. So there's our OOU explanation.

    But what's the IU explanation for Vader's uncanny blindness to Leia's relation to him during the Rebellion?
  16. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    "Apology not accepted, Captain Needa." :p
    ESPECIALLY after a brilliant post like that, Rew.

    Yours was far more eloquent than my smarmy post.
    Well said.
  17. ancslove Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2006
    star 1
    The only thing I can think of is that Leia must have strong natural mind shields. We know from TaB that non-Force sensitives can give off a kind of Force light (Gaeriel and Mon Mothma are referenced) - Vader might have just chalked Leia up as one of those. Leia's talents in instinctive, effortless shielding might have helped convince Obi-Wan and Yoda to agree to hiding her right under the Emperor's nose, whereas Luke's power is more palpable. I'd also add that Vader does recognize Leia's similarity to Padme, and that recognition doesn't help his and Leia's early relationship. On Bespin when dealing with Lando, Vader is Hoth-cold. When confronting Leia in ANH, he sounds absolutely personally disgusted and furious when he declares her a traitor - it's about as personal as he ever gets until ROTJ. It wouldn't occur to him to think that Leia is his supposedly-dead daughter, but he sees Leia follow in Padme's footsteps and turn against his vision for the galaxy just like Padme did, and he's not happy.

    It's the best fanwank I have!
  18. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Agreed, but truthfully... we both know that once Vader felt Kenobi's unmistakable aura... he really had nothing else on his mind.
  19. Treborani Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2009
    star 3
    To add to that Force Light thing: How was Vader supposed to assume she's his daughter if people like Mon Mothma or giving this out. If she's not alone there's no reason for him to expect anything but her being a strong individual. There are trillions of people in the Star Wars Universe. With no clues he can't just assume one is a daughter he didn't even know was born. And as for the buns that was Padme's hairstyle: how many people do you think had that hairstyle? Leia and Padme out of trillions? That's not a giveaway by any means.
  20. Rew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2008
    star 4
    Haha, thanks, SSS! It's a wonder sometimes what my brain can fart out at certain times of the night. :p

    But yeah, this for me is the biggest PT -> OT plothole, even more so than Leia remembering Padme in RotJ despite the latter dying in childbirth (which I simply attribute to Leia's innate Force sense).

    I've thought along similar lines as this too. If you notice, the only time in the entire OT that Vader sounds genuinely yelling angry is right after his first conversation with Leia aboard Tantive. I like to think that he recognizes something in her that he's for so long repressed that it drives him to irrational fury (similar to his PT self, haha), even though he can't figure out just what it is.

    Also, your line, "I'd also add that Vader does recognize Leia's similarity to Padme, and that recognition doesn't help his and Leia's early relationship," where do you get that from? I haven't seen anything that suggests this. Do you have a source, or is this your own inference? [face_thinking]

    I never indicated that Vader should've *assumed* anything--more like, pick up on. It should be noted that Padme was set up throughout the PT (and Portman casted) for the resemblance to Leia. And even beyond the outward appearance, even if one wanted to claim they don't really look alike, there's still Leia's Force signature. Anakin/Vader obsessed over Padme so much that someone whose Force signature registered so much of Padme should've sent alarm bells blaring all throughout Vader's helmeted head. I believe it's a plot hole that there was no such thing taking place.
  21. CloneUncleOwen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2009
    star 4
    The last time I saw a hole this big it had a sign next to it reading "Welcome to the Grand Canyon".[face_laugh]

    I really dislike the concept of force sensitivity because it's a ruse and writer's dodge to shore up shaky plot
    lines; all too often it ends up like the transporter in STAR TREK-- conveniently breaking down when you
    don't want it, performing as a deus ex machina when you do.

    Continuity, continuity... my kingdom for continuity!!!:_|
  22. ancslove Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2006
    star 1
    Sorry, Rew, that's my own inference. It's just that, as everyone has pointed out, the physical, ideological, and career similarities between Leia and Padme are rather hard to miss. Add to that, that Leia is (officially) the daughter of Bail Organa, whom Anakin/Vader knows was a close friend and supporter of Padme, and throw in Alderaan's similarity to Naboo, and I think that Vader can't help but compare Leia to Padme at least on some level. My fanwank is that Vader recognizes Leia's leadership skills, oratory talents, idealism, passion, and courage. But, he sees that instead of using all that talent to help Vader improve the Empire (even before Luke's entrance, Vader is critical of the other Imperial leaders and contemptuous of the Death Star), Leia, like Padme, chooses instead to help ruin the Empire - instead of becoming what (Vader thinks) Padme should have, Leia chooses to follow Padme's path, and it's both disappointing and infuriating. There is a personal level to Vader's confrontation with Leia in ANH, and Vader doesn't get this openly emotional again until ROTJ when he tells Luke that it is too late for him. So this is my (completely unofficial) fanwank for Vader's unusual level of anger and disgust.

    To get more on topic, I'm quite happy with the view that Force bonds and Force sensing is far from an exact science, and that some level of personal connection is needed. After all, Vader doesn't initially realize that Luke is his son, even after feeling his Force presence and watching him shoot down the Death Star trench as if it's Beggar's Canyon. Also, Luke in and beyond Jedi Search relied mostly on stories of unexplainable deeds and reactions to track down most of his students.
  23. DarthNidLoc Jedi Master

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    Mar 19, 2005
    star 3
    Padme's force sensitivity is mostly speculation as we have no evidence that she was any different in that regard to any other non Jedi/Sith human. Also who's to say that someone "force signature" is anything at all like a relatives. Going from the ROTS novel(one of the very few places where we have a description, Dooku's, of what someone looks like in the force)it mostly has to do with a persons emotional state- Palpatine is described being a black hole in the force, Obi-wan a clear waterfall, and Anakin is described as a nuclear reactor approaching critical.
  24. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

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    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    The last week has been insane for me... big snow storm and I was pushing a neighbor's car out and their foot slipped so the car rolled back over me. Crushed a disc in my back, been on pain meds for 7 days... and I'm sure that some of the stuff that I've posted has been off the wall. :p

    ROTJ had more than one: o_O moment.
  25. Kaxs Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2009
    star 1
    If roleplaying material is good enough, then we have... well, not proof, but a absolutely a lead. In the Saga Edition Core Rulebook, she has a feat called "Strong in the Force", which (though she lacks the feat "Force Sensitivity") allows her to use the Force to have a greater chance to succeed with pretty much whatever she's doing.
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