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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST How can the force be a myth in TFA?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by comet1440, Oct 23, 2015.

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  1. JabbatheHumanBeing

    JabbatheHumanBeing Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 14, 2015
    And yet, the Jedi and the force as myth and legend angle makes for a much richer and compelling story, IMO. Which is most important. The lore should be made to fit/ serve the story, not the other way around. Glad JJ doesn't feel too hamstrung by canon - especially when one can easily explain it away.

    If one is a lore-firster, then it's still a pretty simple thing to explain. Propaganda, time, generation gaps, ongoing warfare, a massive galaxy and differing levels of wealth, edcuation and infrastructure across the quadrillions of inhabitants of the GFFA are more than enough to explain it, even if it might seem a little inconsistent with the PT's depiction of the Jedi as integral to the galaxy's government (and not in a particularly low key way).

    First of all, we only know that Finn and Rey seem to be unaware of the truth of the force, the Jedi and the Sith. One was raised to be an Imperial wannabe stooge, and the other grew up on a backwater junkyard planet. So that's not surprising. For all we know, most of the rest of the galaxy learns this stuff in 2nd grade.

    Secondly, the concept of the OT heroes having become myth and legend makes for an excellent story, and layered world-building. A myth within a myth. There something Tolkien-esque about it, and that's fantastic. There's also a meta-commentary embedded in it, regarding our current generation's awareness of the OT, and I like that. Star Wars is myth, not history. And in that context, story trumps lore.

    Thirdly, the EU storylines were not, IMO, at all the most logical routes to take - from either a storytelling or lore perspective.
     
  2. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    I suppose that the force and Jedi and dark side could become the stuff of legend when for approx 2 generations the only force users were palpatine, Vader, yoda and Luke. Hardly anyone would have seen their powers at work so it all becomes stories passed down about what the Jedi etc could do.

    Maybe the empire suppressed any positive stories of the Jedi and painted them as traitors and any stories about them weren't allowed?

    Maybe Vaders powers were the stuff of legend that struck fear into people but no one knew what he was.

    The problem becomes the material that's now becoming canon (Rebels) because other force users will be visible around the Galaxy and so more people may be exposed to seeing the force at work. When it was just the OT there was nothing to contradict it.

    But then it raises the question of what of those kids born force sensitive after Vaders and Palpatines death? Were they put into hiding? Were there still inquisitors hunting them?
     
  3. NotaSithLord

    NotaSithLord Jedi Youngling

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    Aug 27, 2015

    This all easily fits into the Jed becoming mythical figures in history. People hear about them and their exploits in the more populous core worlds, but it's just too fantastic to be real since such individuals were so rare in the first place. Add on top of that the actual propaganda, misinformation, and generations of no Jedi being publicly known (not even the rebels really knew what Luke was up to behind the scenes) and it's totally realistic and appropriate that some girl on a back world like Jakku is completely ignorant except for these "stories".

    This is in addition to all the other evidence in both OT and PT that this should be the case. A well connected Trade Federation official had never encountered a Jedi in TPM, and that was at their height. An average galactic citizen would never have come across one, and if they did it would be a once in multiple lifetime thing. The only exceptions are where Jed frequently visited. Worlds with outposts and temples. It's like hearing about King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. Yeah it sounds cool, but it's just a fantastic and exaggerated story. Right? With so much propaganda and misinformation flying around, who knows what's true and what isn't?
     
  4. Seeker Of The Whills

    Seeker Of The Whills Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 20, 2015
    I don't think that quote means the Force as a whole is a myth. Just the Dark Side (Sith, Knights of Ren, etc.) and the Jedi, since Luke's new Order or whatever didn't seemingly take off.
     
  5. Obi Whan Kenobi

    Obi Whan Kenobi Jedi Knight star 1

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    Mar 8, 2013


    The same thing happened to the Jedi and the force.................................... The empire and the first order TOLD THEIR HISTORY HIS STORY.

    BTW ancient black people had red hair and ancient blacks living in Australia who never saw whites or intermixed with whites were found with BLONDE HAIR AND BLUE EYES. So what if you find a mummy with red hair? And you claim Egyptians depicted themselves as red brown or white LOL!!!! Ok care to explain the hundreds of paintings and black statue depictions in Egypt? I guess all those black people painted meant the fertility of the land was good? LOL
     
  6. jaxbrah

    jaxbrah Jedi Knight star 1

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    Apr 30, 2014
    1. we dont know the context of Hans speech. hes talking specifically to rey and finn. rey, of whom, we know is feom Jakku. it looks like a pretty desolate backwater planet. its not hard to imagine information finds its way there easily. so its possible that most of the galaxy know of the jedi but SOME people dont.

    2. we are talking about, at most, 10,000 people amongst trillions within a galaxy

    3. theres people today who think the holocaust was a myth
     
  7. propeller

    propeller Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 4, 2014
    People, please. Han says, 'The dark side, a jedi...' He's referencing a single heroic jedi's role in specific events (the rise and fall of the Empire), not refuting allegations that the whole concept of jedi is a myth.

    And few had seen evidence of the dark side--that's the whole point--such was the Emperors (and Vader's) way of doing things in building the Empire through deceit and duplicity.

    This really is a non-question.
     
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  8. DarthHavok

    DarthHavok Jedi Master star 2

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    Feb 27, 2002
    That's a cool way of thinking about it. I never thought of it in that fashion. Always thought it meant more of Luke completing his journey and becoming a Jedi. As Yoda said to Luke when he said he must confront Vader "Then, only then, the last of the Jedi will you be."
     
  9. kyl-o-ren

    kyl-o-ren Jedi Youngling

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    Oct 24, 2015
    they're negating the victory at Endor
     
  10. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Aug 19, 2003
    It is rather telling that Motti had some folktale interpretation of what Vader was into but no actual belief... or he would probably not have mouthed off in the manner he did. It says quite a bit that, not only did Vader publicly demonstrate the power of the Force... effectively eliminating any skepticism... but he retorts with "I find your lack of faith disturbing". This is a bloke who worked with Vader in a high ranking position within the same Imperial infrastructure and he thought that Vader's "legendary" abilities were worthy only of dismissal as hyperbolic superstitions.
     
  11. BloodStripe

    BloodStripe Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Jun 16, 1999
    And to take that thought even further, we only know for sure that Rey is in the dark about it. She's the one who asks the question; Finn just happens to be standing there.

    Yeah. The further away we get from it, the more the idea that Luke & Leia owned up to being Vader's kids and both the government and galaxy at large was more or less okay with it seems...really unlikely, and a missed dramatic opportunity to boot.
     
  12. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
    no.
     
  13. sluggo1313.

    sluggo1313. Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 23, 2013
    Yes but once they decide to continue the story you can't have the characters live happyly ever after
     
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  14. Strongbow

    Strongbow Force Ghost star 5

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    Nov 6, 2014


    No they aren't. Did ESB negate the victory at Yavin? Of course not.
     
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  15. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    I'd assume that Motti hadn't had many dealings with Vader prior to this encounter. He'd probably heard all about Vader & that he was supposed to be some kind of former Jedi who believed in the Force, but surely if he'd spent much time with him directly & he had this attitude he would've received a rather painful lesson earlier. Unless he's some kind of weird masochist who gets off on being choked.
    I think RotJ is a great title bcs it can be interpreted in multiple ways. Firstly, like you said it could mean the return of the Jedi plural, as in the return of the Jedi order. However it can also mean the return of the Jedi singular, as in the return of Anakin Skywalker. You could argue that in his final minutes of life he was Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Knight again. This interpretation came more into play following the prequels which re-cast the whole Saga as the story of the rise, fall & redemption of Anakin.
     
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  16. RC-2473

    RC-2473 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 14, 2015
    Lol @ a lot of this thread. imagine living in North Korea and you have no idea of what really happened before the 1950s or even what happened a year ago. the technology for Internet is there, but it's access is restricted and the information black market is dangerous. I imagine the gffa (part of it at least) to be in a similar state but not as bad cause this is fun fiction.

    as far as continuity goes the jedi still being a myth is not a contradiction at all. I think it makes a lot of sense and has a very 'dramatic' message. this is what decades of war does to a civilisation. the gffa isn't underdeveloped; it's a society that fell off. now it's to the point where nobody even knows what is real. star wars is at its core a fun adventure film but this is a real consequence of war that ties well into the nostalgia theme too.
     
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Jedi not myth. Jedi powers myth.
     
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  18. jc1138

    jc1138 Jedi Grand Master star 2

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    Nov 16, 2004
    There are really many ways they could go with this in TFA and beyond, and we're not likely to get definite answers on the general state of beliefs and/or knowledge of the Force and Jedi/Sith in the GFFA in Episode 7.

    I agree w/ other posters that knowledge of and belief in the Force and Jedi would vary greatly amongst the core/outer rim worlds. ANH presents a lot of this to us. We have the Rebellion brass invoking the force (it's Jan Dodonna who first says "May the force be with you" in ANH after all), which Ackbar echoes in RotJ. I got the sense in ANH that Han is familiar with conceptions the Force, but just doesn't believe it. Also, Owen and Beru know an awful lot more than what they are saying, but like (presumably) many, they are keeping their mouths shut because (again presumably) they don't want to attract dangerous attention.

    I also wonder about Luke's exposure and evolvement, ANH and beyond. He is still very much a part of the Rebellion military structure in ESB at Hoth, but then bows out at going to Dagobah. Even at the meeting in RotJ, he is really only interacting w/ Han, Leia, etc, and the top command do not appear to be involved with him. How much does the Rebellion leverage his Jedi status? Do they introduce Luke during the 4-6 era to potential allies as "the kid who blew up the Death Star," and later profess open alliance with him as a Jedi specifically? We hear them invoke the Force, so it could be that they would acknowledge a Jedi (yes, belief in the Force does not necessarily equate to affiliation with the Jedi).

    Furthermore, the Force was likely a myth or unknown to many in the galaxy even during the PT. We as an audience expect the GFFA to have access to information equal to or better than we do, because they have hyperdrive, droids, etc. This is almost certainly not the case. CW and Rebels aside, we don't really see how information and news is disseminated throughout the galaxy, and communication across systems is done via holo-imaging. There is probably much more flow of information by word of mouth, with any broadcast or intersystem communication controlled by the ruling power, which is part of why SW works so well for smugglers and an underground resistance. One will run into problems if one starts with the view that: "people in a GFFA should know about the Jedi because they could look it up on wikipedia."
     
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