How can you find the PT better than the OT?!

Good points, Adam.

To me, the Battle of Hoth is the equivalent of Dunkirk in WWII. The Rebels escape partially due to some Imperial bungling. Then Vader gets on the trail of Leia and the Falcon, rather than Luke.

 

I think the most interesting point in this thread is that it is really a void question anyway. There is no prequel trilogy until Episode III has been released, then a true trilogy comparison can happen - if you feel it necessary, which I essentially do not at the moment.

I have to say that I dislike elements of all 5 films so far but I don't really see any bad films, they are all at least very good. ESB for me is the only masterwork of the saga. I think it is then followed by AOTC, ANH, ROTJ and then TPM.

I don't think Lucas is trying to imitate the style of filmmaking or even feel of the OT. In my opinion, film usually refelects its era, as does most art. What we were going to get in the prequels would be vastly different but at some level it would have to achieve some sense of SW. Some people did not want that, they wanted it all over again. However, these films should have been merited simply as what they are, films, nothing more. No films will ever recieve the same scrutiny and outrageous analysis that the prequels have and IMHO time will be very fair with these films.

Anyway, I personally like what Lucas has done with the prequels. I like the politics, the historical feel, the detail. The result may be the absence of fairy-tale simplicity that accompanied the SW OT, but I do not feel that this is what George was meaning it to be. I feel they more fully present what we could call a 'created mythology'. It acts more like an extensive prelude to what we already know in the OT, and so far, it seems very effective. (None of this is to say I don't dislike aspects of it - namely having a 9-year old as such a central protagonist or the complete mischaracterisation of a major player (Jar Jar).)

I also believe reports that Episode III will vastly change the way we will look at the first two prequels, and perhaps even the OT.

 

STORY: War has moved from a possibility to a reality. Jedi, "keepers of te peace, not soldiers" are suddenly soldiers. And Palpatine is solidly a position to win either way.
On a more personal level, Obi-Wan is saved from Dooku. Obi-Wan and Anakin have a real verbal clash when Padme is thrown from the ship. It's come down to real shouting and anger here, not the quick admonishments earlier in the film. Anakin is not shy about showing his preference of saving Padme to accomplishing the mission here. The conflict has widened.

Can't argue with that.

CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT: For Anakin, the next step in making conflict with Obi-Wan, as well as further proof of his devotion to Padme: he openly admits wanting to save her even when told "You will be expelled from the Jedi order!"

Its just such an in your face way of showing it though. Lucas might as well come on screen with a notice reading "This is the scene where Anakin shows his preference for Padme over the Jedi order, which leads to his conflict with ObiWaN!" There's no craft or artistry in telling a story in that way.


We also get a little bit of his battlefield smarts when he thinks to aim abo
ve the fuel cells.

Well I've never thought of it that way before.

For Obi-Wan: Before Padme gets thrown off the ship, we see a little bit of his friendship and pride in his apprentice ("Good call, my young Padawan!"). We see his focus on the mission and the important cause at hand.
For Yoda: He is a leader. Note the respect accorded to him. Not a guy to screw with. We learn that he senses the conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan (presumably)... what will he do about it?
For Padme: Her resilience. She gets thrown out of a ship and yet is still ready to jump up again and fight. The cause is important to her.

Can't argue with that.

SUBTEXT: Needless to say this part gets subjective.
However, I think seeing the "not soldiers" Jedi and the peaceful Republic thrust into a battle indicates the passing of an era. The shroud of the dark side has fallen, indeed.
Lucas' toying with the convention of bad guys go from right to left, good guys from left to right furthers one of the themes I find in the film, one of "who's the real bad guy". The clonetroopers seem like the good guys (assuming you haven't seen the OT), but then why are they moving in a film-grammar "bad guy" direction?
I also think the idea of clones (manufactured people) fighting droids (also manufactured people) is interesting. Who in that battle actually has a 'soul' in a traditional sense? And does it matter who's who and who dies when they're all Palpatine's pawns anyway?
Regarding the characters, the Ani-Obi fight indicates to me a furthering of Lucas' little point of attachment leading to trouble.

Can't argue with that either.

 

The character development does not appear to happen due to awkwardly delivered lines. Everything appears to be flat because of the digital battle going on, and the bad acting that has to compete with it.

Everything stated as "character development" during the Clone War was already established earlier in the movie and/or in other movies. I do not believe anything was developed. Only punctuated, which made it redundant and lame.

 

I thought the acting took a substantial turn for the better in the Clone War battle.

Obi-Wan and Anakin arguing about Padme is good. They care. They're arguing. They're angry. It's important.

The dialogue is looser and not attempting to be risibly 'stately'.

And the special effects, if you're able to get round the fact that they're CGI, are nothing short of sensational.

 

The first two SW movies were written and directed with a good sense of wit, energy and adventure. The PT tries to be serious whilst cartoon characters like Ben Quadrinaros flutter about. So far the PT is all about missed opportunities, overkill and weak direction and writing. Lucas cares more about the limitations that once hampered him and tries to get the shots to work technically without giving thought to lines like "I hate the sand..." and how they are delivered.

 

missed opportunities

I 'unno. To me this just bugs in general. How can you blame any director for 'missed opportunities'?
Unless Lucas actually read your mind or consulted you personally on the matter (you in the general sense, not you personally, Hawk), how is he supposed to know about all these opportunities?
You can't blame him for not thinking of everything you do or seeing what you see.
Also, missed opportunities conjures up images of someone loving their own ideas and getting disappointed when Lucas goes in a completely different way. That's also not his fault.
Now if Lucas thought of something on his own, and then didn't use it or went in a different direction, then you could blame him for a 'missed opportunity'.
But blaming him for not doing what you think would have been better just isn't logical IMO.

 

I don't find it better. I think the PT is a cartoon fluff based on the OT. There is no depth to performances and they depended on special effects to drive the weak story plots along in both films.

The worst is the third and final film will be no better.

 

How can you find the PT better than the OT?!

One could conceivably ask, "How could you not?"

And for the record, I think they are equal in terms of quality, and I in fact detest the whole artificial distinction between "original trilogy" and "prequel trilogy." I prefer to call it by its collective title, The Star Wars Saga.

 

"How could you not?"

Well most of the critics thought ANH, ESB were great movies..therefor..they recieved Academy Awards. When you rely on their opinions...then the answer is that OT is better then tpm and aotc.

(Personally I don't think Academy Awards should make or breake the movie but it does say something about the quality from a movie)

 

When you rely on their opinions...

I'm sorry, but when it comes to opinion, I like to rely on my own, thank you very much.

And your post wasn't asking, "What do the critics think?" you were asking "What do you think?" to which I responded that you shouldn't be surprised if people choose to hold the opinion that the prequels are the better movies.

 

'unno. To me this just bugs in general. How can you blame any director for 'missed opportunities'?
Unless Lucas actually read your mind or consulted you personally on the matter (you in the general sense, not you personally, Hawk), how is he supposed to know about all these opportunities?
You can't blame him for not thinking of everything you do or seeing what you see.
Also, missed opportunities conjures up images of someone loving their own ideas and getting disappointed when Lucas goes in a completely different way. That's also not his fault.
Now if Lucas thought of something on his own, and then didn't use it or went in a different direction, then you could blame him for a 'missed opportunity'.
But blaming him for not doing what you think would have been better just isn't logical IMO.

Missed oportunities that Lucas hinted at in the Classic Trilogy such as Anakin and Obi-Wan's good friendship for instance.

 

speaking of opinion...

"And for the record, I think they are equal in terms of quality, and I in fact detest the whole artificial distinction between "original trilogy" and "prequel trilogy." I prefer to call it by its collective title, The Star Wars Saga."

it is your OPINION that the distinction is artificial.

 

it is your OPINION that the distinction is artificial.

Of course it's my opinion. What's your point?

 

Anakin and Obi-wan's good friendship is probably just another one of Obi-wan's "certain point of views" because throughout the OT, Anakin/Vader keeps mentioning Obi-wan's name like he has an utter contempt for the man.

 

But they are good friends. The elevator scene in Clones and, later, the conversation about dreams shows a deep friendship between the two. They care greatly for each other, even if their relationship appears tumultuous on the surface.

 

It's just personal opinion.
Doesn't matter how outraged or disgusted you can get, or how many big-ass posts you put together, you can't expect everyone to agree with just one opinion.
We're not clones

 

Jedi Knight Kenobi: "Personally I don't think Academy Awards should make or breake the movie but it does say something about the quality from a movie"

It doesn't say very much at all. Take the last 10 'best picture' winners. Compare them to the great (American) films of the decade.

Many of the winners will not even stand the test of time let alone bear comparison to films like The Shawshank Redemption, Pulp Fiction, Seven, Heat, Memento or Crouching Tiger. Also think of foreign director's like Kieslowski, Kitano and Wenders who have been completely overlooked.

Finally, I think it would require devine intervention to explain to us how Chicago beat The Two Towers for costumes. I am still mind-boggled.

Hawk: "Missed oportunities that Lucas hinted at in the Classic Trilogy such as Anakin and Obi-Wan's good friendship for instance."

They appear to hold a very strong friendship in AOTC. Does that not mean this aspect was covered well? I think the film conveys their friendship well and shows how it is unstable in their Master/Apprentice roles. The Coruscant scenes are especially good at showing this.

 

But they are good friends. The elevator scene in Clones and, later, the conversation about dreams shows a deep friendship between the two. They care greatly for each other, even if their relationship appears tumultuous on the surface.

The elevator scene is a good example of Lucas forgetting about his characters - it was only written and added after Lucas realised that he'd introduced Obi and Anakin without establishing that they were friends.
I mean how could he forget something like that! It's essential.
It's a lame scene too, Ewan's chuckle in that scene is one of the worst bits of acting I've ever seen.

As for their conversation about dreams - well it doesn't say friendship to me, Obi just sounds like a concerned teacher.

g

 

Personally I don't think Academy Awards should make or breake the movie but it does say something about the quality from a movie

Well, that explains why Citizen Kane only picked up 1 Oscar, then.

 

gezvader28: "The elevator scene is a good example of Lucas forgetting about his characters - it was only written and added after Lucas realised that he'd introduced Obi and Anakin without establishing that they were friends."

Wrong, Lucas wanted the scene because he felt it would be better to show their warm friendship before the disagreement. It doesn't mean he forgot to cover their friendship throughout the film.

 

Clonetrooper-
Wrong, Lucas wanted the scene because he felt it would be better to show their warm friendship before the disagreement

Which is what I said. (Although that added elevator scene isn't very good.)

It doesn't mean he forgot to cover their friendship throughout the film.

So which scenes show their friendship?

g

 

I mean how could he forget something like that! It's essential.

He didn't forget it. It's in the film, so to say that he forgot the scene is illogical. Whether he realized the importance while writing the script or during production is irrelevant.

As for their conversation about dreams - well it doesn't say friendship to me, Obi just sounds like a concerned teacher.

It's obvious that he's more than just concerned. He's feeling what his friend feels. It's actually a very touching scene. Notice just how vulnerable Anakin makes himself. You don't do that in front of somebody unless you trust them implicitely. This implies a deep and caring friendship between the two.

 

He didn't forget it. It's in the film, so to say that he forgot the scene is illogical. Whether he realized the importance while writing the script or during production is irrelevant.

I would've thought he'd realise it's importance while writing the script to AOTC in '99! After all - the friendship between Anakin and Obi is supposed to be a major part of the story. Isn't it? We've known this since the OT. It's not some trivial plot point.
But he went ahead and shot most of the film in 2000, then some pick-ups in March 2001, and only then after watching a rough cut did he decide to shoot that elevator scene in Novemeber 2001. So, yeah - it seems like he forgot to establish the friendship to me.

The conversation about dreams shows a thoughtful, perhaps worried teacher, I don't see it as a scene of great friendship.

Lucas shows us a worried teacher and a frustrated pupil, there's clearly an antagonism between them, that is illustrated clearly. But I don't think Lucas establishes a great friendship between the two.

g

 

Out of curiosity, g, would you say Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon had a friendship?