How come Ben didn't know that Leia was "the other" ?

Ok, about Anakin and Vader, they are one and the same. Vader is Anakin's darkside manifestation and even if he took on a different name, he's still the same person with a different personality and different views. You speak as if Anakin and Vader are different people in different bodies. Vader is Anakin's darkerside and Anakin controls his own actions and emotions, not someone else. You can't have two different beings inside one body unless you're insane and have become a schizo.

And don't point Ben's BS at me, I lost faith in that man when he pulled that "from a certain point of view" trick.

To continue on a less negative point, Leia could very well be the other hope, but it makes much more sense that it's Anakin now. And it's been pointed out that Anakin's sudden about turn in the ROTJ could have been foreseen if one had enough insight. I mean I already knew that Anakin was going to turn to the lightside when I finished watching ESB for the first time.
There has been no indication that Leia's that strong in the Force, all she's ever been able to do was sense her brother's presence, which really isn't a big deal if they're bonded and are twins. It wouldn't take much of a feat for one to sense someone that you're linked to.
Sith is a canon word since it was used in TPM, but also it was used in the scripts and earlier drafts of ANH and so on. Though that information could be counted as EU, but TPM is canon and one cannot dismiss it just because it was made after the OT. GL doesn't approve of the EU heck he goes out of his way and tramples the EU. He was even going to name Coruscant Had Abbadon like he was originally going to do in ROTJ, but it took a lot of convincing from Rick for him to change it into Coruscant. Sith is an original idea for him that he just carried over to TPM. Even so, Sith is still canon.
Despite my hate for the man, Ben knew about Leia hence his quote from the movie about taking Luke and Leia when they were young, that is canon because it's in the movies... GL may later on change that, but it'll stick for now.
There has been no indication that Anakin is the other hope nor has there been any indication that Leia is the other hope either. She's been mentioned as the other Skywalker, but if so, then GL really concluded the OT with a lot of strings hanging. If it were Anakin, then he could tie up those strings in the PT, but once again, we'll have to wait and see.

 

Sorry guys--Real Life intervened, so I've been out of it for a bit. I've been reading, and I'll poop a huge post later on about everything from the past few days...but for now, I just wanted to clarify something. I had thought that it had been established, but:

Ben Kenobi does know about Leia's lineage throughout the entire saga. Proof:

-Ben has been in hiding for years upon years. He gets a message from Leia, and all of a sudden decides to go on a mission to help free a planet from the grip of the Empire. He also decides to take Luke along with him, which is potentially very dangerous, considering how naive he is, and how close he could end up to the Emperor & Vader. Yes, Kenobi was always pretty foolhardy and rash--but he KNOWS that he's one of two Jedi left, and (we can assume) he's been hiding out on Tatooine for years watching out for Luke. Besides--if he was let in on the fact that they were hiding Luke on Tatooine, it's reasonable to assume that he also knew that there were twins born, and she was being placed on the other side of the galaxy.

(actually, I had always assumed that Ben was looking out for Luke on Tatooine...so that could be a totally false impression on my part. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...I can't think of a reference which confirms that at the moment. Maybe it was the 'having his father's lightsaber' thing that gave me that impression.)

-Ben says, in RoTJ, that he and the Emperor both knew that any offspring of Vader would be a threat to them, so the twins were 'hidden' from Vader. Granted, it is not said WHO hid them, but it's assumed to be Kenobi, since he is the one relating the story.

-RoTJ, throne room. Vader, after finding out about Luke's twin sister, says "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me." Even Vader realizes who would have been the one hiding the existence of Leia from him.

-
So really, I think it becomes a pretty basic logical conclusion here:

Ben knew about Leia.
Yoda knew about Leia.
Ben says Luke was last hope.
Yoda says there is another hope.

~Leia cannot be the another hope.

In addition, in RoTJ, after Luke says he cannot kill his own father, Ben says:
"Then the emperor has already won. You were our last hope." Even if Ben had discovered (after his death) about Leia, he's STILL saying that Luke is the last hope, and Leia is not a contender.

--
I posit that there are two possible explanations here, starting with the simplest:

1)Ben knows about Leia, Yoda knows about Leia. Yoda believes Anakin is the another hope after Luke, Ben believes Luke is the last hope.

2)Ben knows about Leia, Yoda knows about Leia. Yoda thinks Leia is the another hope after Luke, Ben doesn't beleive that Leia has the potential to become a Hope, nor Vader.

[if someone can think of other ways to explain this, please mention them.]

 

No, Obi-wan doesn't know Leia because he has never seen or met her throughout his time being on Tatooine watching Luke and if he did knew her, the Emperor would have known it too seeing as how he can predict everything before it happens so there's no doubt he would have predicted on Obi-wan's knowledge of Leia's existence if he wanted to since he already knew who Luke is.

Also the only reason Obi-wan agreed to go because Leia told him about his service with her adoptive father Bail Organa during the Clone Wars and that she needs his help in taking the death star plans to her father on Alderaan so he can give the rebels an opportunity on how to destroy the Death Star.

Now how did she know who Obi-wan is and what he did in the past? Simple, her "father told her.

DarthSkeptical-

I never said that Luke was bluffing, I was saying that Vader's return to the lightside was unexpected when ROTJ was released back in '83. Noone ever counted on Vader becoming a good guy until that legendary moment when he grabbed the Emperor and tossed him down the reactor.

Also, as Bjorn pointed out, Yoda never liked Anakin and he was never keen on the idea of having him be trained as a Jedi because he believed as the rest of the council did that he was too old to be trained and plus, he sensed some Dark Side tendencies within Anakin.

He still doesn't approve on Anakin being trained as a Jedi despite that he's been outvoted by the other council members on this decision and he also believes that once you turned to the Dark Side, your eternally damned. He never gave any indication that there's good in Vader nor does he believe in the prophecy which is why he's obsessed with wanting Vader and the Emperor destroyed.

About what's canon and what's not, as Bjorn75 also pointed out, if we didn't have anything to to learn about these movies, we wouldn't understand what the Star Wars films were about and besides, Lucas is the creator and he knows alot about these films more than we do. If any book author asked Lucas for permission on writing books about his movies, then it's canon

 

Devore-

"Anakin and Vader are NOT one and the same. Vader is a persona Anakin took when he chose to turn to the Dark Side. He's completely unrecognizable in his outfit as Darth Vader. He's another person. When he redeems himself at the end of ROTJ(fulfilling Yoda's premonition that "there is another"), we see him as Anakin Skywalker again in the closing scenes."

You should check Jade Angel's post because he knows just as I do that they ARE one and the same. Vader is just Anakin's darkside manifestation he created to escape the pain of his early life and despite that he has a different name, he's still the same person with a different personality and different views.

You can't be 2 people when you only have 1 body unless you're a schitzophreniac which is what Lucas would've made Anakin into if this were the case.

"Yoda wants Luke to confront_Vader_, in the hopes that this confrontation will cause Anakin to re-assert himself. And this is what happens."

I've already pointed out that Yoda didn't believe that Anakin can be turned back because in his mind as well as Obi-wan's and the Emperor's, once you've turned to the Dark Side you are eternally damned.

This is what he thinks of Anakin when he became Darth Vader and he's been suggesting the very thing throughout ESB when he's training Luke and in his death scene in ROTJ which is why he wants Vader and the Emperor dead and that he never referred to him but to Leia as the other hope.

"And he never gave any indication he wanted Vader dead, either."

Yes he did. Again, Yoda believes that a person is damned once they turned to the Dark Side and this is what he thinks of Anakin. He's been saying that throughout the movies which means he wants him dead and why he never considered him the other hope.

"Oh, come on. The cave scene is about "not drawing your weapon first"? I believe Lucas intended to convey much more with that scene than simply drawing your weapon first.

IMHO(and the other theory about the cave posted by Bjorn75 is interesting), it's pretty obvious that the message in that scene is that if Luke chooses to 1. take his weapons into the confrontation with the Dark Side, and 2. chooses to physically destroy Vader by lopping off his head, then he will have turned to the Dark Side, and will become like his father.

I think this is pretty clear, "killing is not the answer" message."

Is that so? Then why wasn't that message made clear when in TPM, we see another Jedi kill a Sith lord? That Jedi didn't turn to the Dark Side when he did that so it's pretty clear that a Jedi can still kill people without going to the dark side in the process.

Plus, Luke has to give in to his anger and hatred in order to complete his turn to the dark side and that is what he did when he cut off Vader's head in the cave which is why he failed.

Yoda was teaching Luke to avoid using the Dark Side which is why he told him he didn't need his weapons.

"You're suggesting that the only way to save the future of the Jedi is for Luke to_KILL_Vader, but this is simply not true. As the cave indicates, If Luke just kills Vader, he will become like his father. If Luke had finished Vader off in ROTJ when he had the upper hand, it's clear that Luke would have fallen to the Dark Side."

He has to give in to his anger and hatred for that to be possible but if he doesn't kill Vader, he will die by allowing Vader and the Emperor to have the opportunity to kill him, thus "the Emperor has already won".

You said earlier that attacking someone for the purpose of saving someone or something is considered a defense, right? Well the Jedi have to save themselves because their future is at stake. The Sith have already wiped out 9,999 jedi, Yoda is close to dying, and Luke is all that is left of the Jedi once Yoda is gone.

If Yoda didn't want Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor, it's pretty obvious that Luke will die too and the Jedi will be completely extinct which is why Yoda wants Vader and the Emperor dead to ensure that the Jedi will have a future.

"Yoda was wise enou

 

No, Obi-wan doesn't know Leia because he has never seen or met her throughout his time being on Tatooine watching Luke

Prove it. I can just as well say he did know her, because he wasn't on Tatooine for all that long.

and if he did knew her, the Emperor would have known it too seeing as how he can predict everything before it happens so there's no doubt he would have predicted on Obi-wan's knowledge of Leia's existence if he wanted to since he already knew who Luke is.


We could talk for quite some time about the prescience of old Jedi. We see in the movies that the Emperor's prescience is flawed, but regardless, all prescience is is a fuzzy vision of the future. It is certainly not 'knowing the entire contents of another's mind'.

Trained Jedi have strong minds, and others will not be able to read them. If Obi-Wan knew that coming within a parsec of Vader meant that the entire contents of his brain would be dumped, I doubt he would have come anywhere near him.

I believe you have to have strong feelings about something (and be broadcasting it) for other Jedi to pick up on it. Otherwise Vader could have read the minds of every Rebel he encountered and discovered all of their plottings.

Also the only reason Obi-wan agreed to go because Leia told him about his service

Oh, really? That's the only reason? He said this, did he? Was this off-screen that he said this, or EU sources?

Now how did she know who Obi-wan is and what he did in the past? Simple, her "father told her.

Right. We don't know if Ben was around when Leia was older, but she doesn't give any indication that she recognizes him.

plus, he sensed some Dark Side tendencies within Anakin.

Hurm...I don't remember Yoda ever saying this in TPM. I thought it was more like 'clouded, his future is.'?

lso believes that once you turned to the Dark Side, your eternally damned.

I don't believe he ever uses 'damned'. He says "...forever it will dominate your destiny." It _does_ dominate Anakin's destiny, meaning, it's been the dominant factor in the way his destiny has unfolded. Yes, he does come back--but the Dark Side has been dominant.

About what's canon and what's not, as Bjorn75 also pointed out, if we didn't have anything to to learn about these movies, we wouldn't understand what the Star Wars films were about and besides, Lucas is the creator and he knows alot about these films more than we do. If any book author asked Lucas for permission on writing books about his movies, then it's canon

Uh, OK. So the LucasArts computer games are also canon, right? THINK of the sheer amount of SW crap that is out there, and the accuracy of all of it. Some stuff about the movies was put out before the movies so that spies would get erroneous information (weren't there, like, four scripts for the ending of RoTJ?) Lucas, himself, probably did interviews were he planted more seeds of false information.

And after that you have to factor in Mr. Lucas's self proclaimed title as "The Mythmaker", and his seeming need to 'reinvent' the movies even after they're done. We CAN'T accept all the other nonsense associated with the universe he's created because he doesn't seem to be consistent with his own stuff (example being Han's character change in ANH).

Sorry--I don't have access to the volumes of stuff that you do, so I'll simply have to work with the movies themselves.


You can't be 2 people when you only have 1 body unless you're a schitzophreniac which is what Lucas would've made Anakin into if this were the case.


Wrong. Senator Palpatine/Lord Sidious.

Two PERSONAS, not two people.


Yes he did. Again, Yoda believes that a person is damned once
No, he didn't. Sidious has shown that Ben is VERY specific about Vader and Anakin, though Yoda is less so. But Yoda never says "You must kill Anakin."

You said earlier that attacking someone for the purpose of saving someone or something is considered a defense, right?

No, I think [b

 

Wait until 2005. If you like spoilers wait until 2003(filming)...hehe

 

It's tricky, I can definitely see where you guys are coming from. The argument I am proposing here, has to do with why Luke was kept in the dark about his father.

First of all, the plot of TESB, and the way tension is built prevents Yoda and Ben from telling Luke the truth. If there is to be a surprise in the end, Luke must not know about Darth/Anakin. Also, if Luke had known that Vader was not entirely evil, the emotional impact of the duel would be far less.

So, that is one motivation for Ben and Yoda to keep Luke in the dark. Pure drama. For the purposes of this debate, I am ignoring this "plot-twist" argument, since it is not part of the story.

What possible other reasons do they have, to keep Luke from knowing the truth? It seems to me, that telling Luke the truth, would be a double-edged sword. He might become too loyal to Vader and turn to the dark side, or he might start having feelings for him, feelings that makes Luke want to redeem him.
What are the consequences of not telling him? If Luke is not let in on the secret, he is more likely to hate Vader for all he has done, more likely to strike him down in battle the first chance he gets.

So - telling him would be a push towards "Redeeming Anakin or joining Vader". Not telling him would be a push towards the "Destroying Vader".

Now, the final piece of this puzzle - Were Yoda and Ben ever going to tell Luke?
We can't know for sure, but the movies suggest they weren't.
They had a chance of telling Luke before he went to Bespin - they didn't take it.
In ROTJ, Luke asked if Vader was telling the truth. Yoda pretended not to hear, and Luke had to ask him again.
In ROTJ, Ben admits his "true lie" only after being confronted with it.

I think this suggests that Yoda and Obi-Wan would rather have Luke confront Vader without knowing it was his father.
That is an indication that they believed that destroying Anakin had better odds, than trying to redeem him and risk losing. Consequently, their intention was not to try to turn Vader back into Anakin, but to have Vader destroyed along with the Emperor.

EDIT: Fixed some Anakin-Vader confusions.

Björn

 

Nice argument Bjorn75. Yoda was a bit upset after learning that Vader told Luke the truth.

Yoda: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice."

You can argue all you want, but this line tells it all. There is absolutely no way that Yoda thought Anakin could be redeemed.

 

Sidious--it's been noted more than once that 'dominate your destiny' does not equate to 'will forever prevent you from being good again'.

If that were the case, note that Luke had already started down the dark path (using the Dark Side of the force to attack Vader/Sidious in RoTJ), yet he manages to make a 180* a few minutes later.

If I break my leg in ten places, it will forever dominate my destiny in regards to walking...but it doesn't mean, at some point, I won't walk again.

 

" 'dominate your destiny' does not equate to 'will forever prevent you from being good again'."

All I can say is, I think it does mean that you would never become good again. I do not believe the line was a half truth or had any kind of symbolic meaning. Yoda had to be absolutely clear to Luke about this.

 

An interesting point, about Yoda and Ben's reluctance to tell the truth, Björn. It's possible to believe that they were never going to tell Luke, I guess.

But I never got that from the film. I took literally the line "Unfortunate that you rushed to face him...that incomplete was your training. That not ready for the burden were you." I just always assumed that had Luke trained properly, he would've been told at a point when Yoda thought he could handle it. More than that, I thought Yoda's chief problem with Vader having told him was that it made Ben and Yoda look like liars, and weakened his faith in them. I mean, everyone eventually learns about the "true lie" of Santa Claus one day, too, but it's unfortunate if they learn it too early., because the good of the "lie" of Santa Claus (anonymous gift giving) can be lost amongst the disappointment the child has at being lied to.

I'm also reluctant to just dismiss Obi's motivations in the story. Obi's looking for redemption here, too. And the only way Obi erases the shame of his failure is if ultimately Anakin returns. Helping Luke kill Anakin might be enough of an apology to the people of the Republic, but it still means he's failed his padawan...and Yoda. He has to see turning Anakin back to the Light Side as the most satisfactory resolution to the damage his arrogance has done.

To quote George Lucas, "All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in [ANH]." (Source: Bouzerau, Laurent. Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays. 1997. p. 271)

 

Lord Sidious makes the emphatic point, There is absolutely no way that Yoda thought Anakin could be redeemed

From the films There's every way. First, just going on OT stuff, why would Yoda have been party to the hiding of the children, especially the manner in which they were split up and hidden in two totally different environments and socio-economic backgrounds, unless he was trying to leave open the possibility of redemption? Again, if all it took was one Jedi to bring down Vader and the Emperor, why didn't he and Ben, as the strongest Jedis, just go in there and kick some ass themselves? Second, using PT stuff, Anakin's the Chosen One in an ancient prophecy Yoda's known all his life. He's destined to bring balance to The Force. Yoda accepted that, even if he didn't believe that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi. Why the hell wouldn't he believe that Anakin was going to redeem himself? It's hard to believe that a prophecy in which the central figure is ultimately evil would've been embraced by beings dedicated to doing good. Why would Jedi describe an unrepentantly evil being as "The Chosen One"?

My interpretation of what I know of the films without SW2 or SW3 having been released yet: Since it had been so long since the Jedi had to deal with a powerful Dark Side threat, the best way for the Force to be rebalanced was to have a purge, followed by a tale of redemption. That way, when new Jedi were trained, they could have a recent example of the real and present danger the Dark Side poses, along with a tale of how the Light Side ultimately vanquished the Dark within an individual. A Luke victory over an unrepentant Darth Vader can be too easily interpreted by padawans as merely the strength of one particular Knight over another. As a teacher, Yoda would surely have been looking for the outcome of greatest utility to future generations. As an adherent of the Light Side, he would also be looking for the best possible outcome of a bad situation. And given the staggering loss of life that Vader brought to the galaxy, the best possible ending is one of repentance and re-emergence of good.

As he says to Luke, "Your weapons . . . you will not need them." And ultimately, of course, he doesn't. He wins as Yoda wants him to win: by throwing down his weapon and simply believing that the Light Side will triumph. Yoda was directly training him for this outcome, and the little guy got what he hoped for.

 

DarthSkeptical, how do you interpret the fact that Yoda considers the situation "unexpected"?

Yoda - Told you, did he?
Luke - Yes.
Yoda - Unexpected this is, and unfortunate.
Luke - Unfortunate that I know the truth?
Yoda - No, (cont'd as in your post)

What is the current situation anyway? I can understand if you think "Luke losing faith in Yoda and ObiWan" is the unexpected thing, but I somehow find it easier to think that "Luke knowing about Anakin" is what is unexpected.

Or is it the fact that Luke was somehow affected by the dark side what is unexpected? After all, he does wear black, strangling guards etc. Hmm.. I didn't think of this angle before. Was this because he went to Bespin, or had it happened anyway?(Making mental note)

Your description of Obi's character is very good, and very believable. But it is not the Obi we see in the movies, he doesn't mention bringing Anakin back. The reason he told the truth from a certain point of view is probably that it was HIS point of view. His truth. Everything Obi says indicates that Obi considers Anakin dead and gone. He considers his mistake made and the consequenses taken.

You mention an interesting quote, but why then does Obi so clearly show that he doesn't believe Anakin can come back?
Obi-Wan - "He's more machine now, than man. Twisted and evil."

I am the first to admit that my views on Yoda and Obi-Wan are influenced by a couple of threads on the forum. "Why is the Empire evil" being one of them. I am also very curious on where the "force-balance" element will take things in the upcoming movies. My stand on this issue depends greatly on how the Force and the relationship between Anakin-Yoda-ObiWan develops in Ep2 and 3.

Björn

 

"Prove it. I can just as well say he did know her, because he wasn't on Tatooine for all that long."

Oh really? With all the Jedi getting decimated by Vader and Obi-wan's life on the line, do you really think he would have enough time to get to know Leia? I doubt it because Obi-wan had to spend 20 years hiding on Tatooine and looking after Luke.

It is very unlikely he did knew her since it wasn't indicated in ANH and the only explanation for his sudden knowledge of her in ROTJ is that Yoda told him about her after Luke took off in ESB.

"Oh, really? That's the only reason? He said this, did he? Was this off-screen that he said this, or EU sources?"

Uhhh-reread my post.

I said "Leia told him", not "Obi-wan told Luke".

"Hurm....I don't remember Yoda ever saying this in TPM. I thought it was more like "clouded his future is"."

I meant after his speech about how "Fear leads to anger, etc. etc., He said to Anakin, "I sense much fear in you" and fear is a darkside trait.

"Wrong. Senator Palpatine/Lord Sidious.
Two PERSONAS, not two people."

Two personas but still just one man.

"No, he didn't. Sidious has shown that Ben is VERY specific about Vader and Anakin, though Yoda is less so. But Yoda never says "You must kill Anakin"."

He never said not to, either. Also Yoda said to Luke "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will."

That to me means that Yoda believes that Anakin is long gone when he joined the Emperor which is why as the others stated, that he wants Vader and the Emperor destroyed.

"No, I think you said that "

Not the part where I say it's defense, Devore said that.

DarthSkeptical-

The reason why Obi-wan and Yoda didn't go after Vader and the Emperor by themselves is because not only would they deal with 2 Sith lords, they would've also dealt with the entire imperial troops.

It would have been a suicide attempt for them to go after the Sith knowing that the Empire will be there to protect the Sith.

The reason why Obi-wan and Yoda hid the Skywalker children is because they couldn't risk letting the Sith know about them or else they would try to find them and do 2 things:

-Turn them to the Dark Side

or

-Kill them.


Also, If Yoda accepted that Anakin is the chosen one, why did he have this look of disappointment on his face when he looked at Mace?

That to me indicates that Yoda is not very keen on the whole prophecy and plus, he never wanted Anakin to be trained at all because he believes that Anakin would bring trouble to the Jedi and now that Anakin has killed all of the Jedi, Yoda is convinced that Anakin/Vader is long gone and now he wants Anakin/Vader out of the picture once and for all.

 

PMT99: You should check Jade Angel's post because he knows just as I do that they ARE one and the same. Vader is just Anakin's darkside manifestation he created to escape the pain of his early life and despite that he has a different name, he's still the same person with a different personality and different views.


I'm a girl!!!

 

a tale of how the Light Side ultimately vanquished the Dark within an individual.

Dude, your post was so spot-on awesome that it gave me the chills. This is totally, and completely awesome if Lucas actually intended for this to be (and will unfold this way.)

I've been really down on Lucas for a while, because I've been thinking that his storytelling skills have been on the decline since the OT and the Indy flicks. But man, if he could pull off events as splendidly as you have portrayed them, the SW flicks might even be considered films, and not just movies (meaning, artsy/meaningful versus pure entertainment.)

Thanks man. Love reading your posts. Damn shame Lucas doesn't get you on board to help him write

 

Oh really? With all the Jedi getting decimated by Vader and Obi-wan's life on the line, do you really think he would have enough time to get to know Leia? I doubt it because Obi-wan had to spend 20 years hiding on Tatooine and looking after Luke.

He doesn't need to 'get to know her'. I'm only stating that he knows of her existence.

I don't recall the movies stating that Ben lived on Tatooine for 20 years...?


It is very unlikely he did knew her since it wasn't indicated in ANH and the only explanation for his sudden knowledge of her in ROTJ is that Yoda told him about her after Luke took off in ESB.

I don't see this as the 'only' explanation since he seems to intimate that he was responsible for hiding the twins.

"Oh, really? That's the only reason? He said this, did he? Was this off-screen that he said this, or EU sources?"

Uhhh-reread my post.

I said "Leia told him", not "Obi-wan told Luke".

And that's not what I was saying either. I quoted what I was referencing.

I meant after his speech about how "Fear leads to anger, etc. etc., He said to Anakin, "I sense much fear in you" and fear is a darkside trait.

That's fine...heh, I forgot what the original intention was here, but if you were trying to establish that Yoda never had any faith in Anakin, and that he has no hope of there being good in Anakin--uh, Yoda says the same things about Luke when he first gets to Dagobah.


"Wrong. Senator Palpatine/Lord Sidious.
Two PERSONAS, not two people."

Two personas but still just one man.

Yeah...but the point you were trying to make was that there are no different personas--that one person is a persona (meaning, Vader==Anakin, and there is no persona division between them.) Yeah, it's pretty obvious that they occupy the same corporeal space--I don't think you'll have anyone argue that

"No, I think you said that "

Not the part where I say it's defense, Devore said that.


You said:
You said earlier that attacking someone for the purpose of saving someone or something is considered a defense, right?
I believe you stated, some time ago, that "attacking someone, at all costs, to defend something/someone" was something the Jedi would do. Devore told you he didn't believe the Jedi would do that--that they were solely defensive.

The reason why Obi-wan and Yoda didn't go after Vader and the Emperor by themselves is because not only would they deal with 2 Sith lords, they would've also dealt with the entire imperial troops.

Then why train Luke?

When Ben is on the Death Star Vader seeks him out, so he can confront him on his own. Vader always seems to want to handle things 'on his own.' ObiWan could have just as easily sent a letter to Vader saying "We have your son on Tatooine. If you want to see him alive, come by yourself to the O.K. Corral. Bring your buddy Palpatine, too."


The reason why Obi-wan and Yoda hid the Skywalker children is because they couldn't risk letting the Sith know about them or else they would try to find them and do 2 things:

Er...right. Is anyone contending this? I mean, Obiwan spells this out _pretty_ clearly in RoTJ, doesn't he?

 

Small point first. PMT99 somewhere above says The Emperor has "uncanny" abilities to predict the future. But he's really an idiot when it comes to predicting things. He bases his actions on his foreknowledge, but ultimately he loses. If you win some of the battles but ultimately lose the war, can you really be said to have "uncanny" abilities? He thinks DS1 is going to crush the Rebellion. He thinks his plan for DS2 is even better. He thinks Vader will make a great apprentice. But his predictions (at least in the OT) are all ultimately wrong. C'mon, the guy's no better at predicting the future than Clinton was when he said, "C'mon, Monica, you'll never believe how much fun cigars can be..."

 

You got a point, DarthSkeptical, I can't argue with that.

Jade Angel-

I'm sorry. I didn't know you were a girl.

BigBird-

"I don't recall the movies stating that Ben lived on Tatooine for 20 years....?"

I know but Lucas chimed us in on how many years Episodes 1-3 will take place before the OT:

TPM-32 years before ANH
AOTC-22 years before ANH
Episode 3-20 years before ANH

The number of years on Episode 3 suggest how long Obi-wan will be on Tatooine.

"Yoda says the same things about Luke when he first gets to Dagobah."

True but Obi-wan had to convince Yoda to train Luke by reminding him how he was a lot like Luke when he was young.

"I believe you stated, some time ago, that "attacking someone, at all costs, to defend something/someone" was something the Jedi would do. Devore told you he didn't believe the Jedi would do that--that they were solely defensive."

That's right. The Jedi's future is at stake and they can't allow the Sith to continue picking them off one by one which is why the Jedi must eliminate them or they will become a permanent fairy tale.

"Then why train Luke?"

Because he's all that is left of the Jedi and he's also their last hope(well-to Obi-wan that is). Plus Obi-wan and Yoda didn't have the rebels to protect them back when their fellow Jedi were being annihilated by the Sith and the Empire because the rebels didn't exist yet which is why they had to hide so they wouldn't wind up like the others.

For Luke, he doesn't have to worry about the Empire because he has the rebels to contend with them which leaves him open to face the Emperor and Vader.

 

Wow! Thanks, Big Bird. But wth all due deference to your suggestion that I write for LFL, he don't need me. He needs Carrie Fisher. But his li'l feud with seemingly every guild in town means he has to pick from writers who aren't in the writer's guild, as I understand it. So instead of getting the best script-fixer in Hollywood, he has to pick from among the people around him, or from people who haven't gotten into the guild yet. And we're denied the awesome possibility of seeing the credit:

STORY BY
George Lucas

SCRIPT BY
George Lucas and Carrie Fisher

 

And don't be down on Lucas. He knows story. He just doesn't know dialogue. He admits as much. So he knows his fault. His only real problem is that in his effort to gain freedom from the old Hollywood system, he's ostracized himself from most parts of it--even the good parts that could give him the help he recognizes he needs. TPM is what ANH might've been had he no Brian DePalmas, Steven Spielbergs, Gloria Katzes or even Gary Kurtzes around to challenge him and make him reach higher than the high bar he'd set for himself. It's everything GL does best, done better, and everything he does poorly, done worse. I live in hope that now he's brought in someone else to write the script, even though it's not my first, second, or even third choice, SW2 will totally knock everyone off their asses.

GL is a storyteller who can't write dialogue. Big deal. That's no sin, nor even serious fault, when balanced against everything else he can do. Read the novelization of TPM, as I'm sure you have, and you'll see what I mean. Everyone in life, even the greatest geniuses, need help. We shouldn't be moaning or gnashing our teeth over this obvious point. We should be asking, rather, what it will take to get Hollywood less resentful of GL's success and control, and what GL can do to be less fearful of the help Hollywood can give him.

 

Ahh, Björn. Good lad. You've seen the next level of the argument. All is proceeding as I have foreseen....

(See how I did that? I just said it. If I was wearing a robe and carrying a cane and could move some things around through telekenesis, you'd probably believe me, too.)

Anyway, you ask, "DarthSkeptical, how do you interpret the fact that Yoda considers the situation "unexpected"?"

Easily, if at length. Yoda's different than the Emperor. He's not so arrogant about his abilities to see the future, because it's "always in motion." Sidious thinks that what he sees is how it's going to be, in part because he believes the Dark Side is more powerful, but also because he thinks he's just smarter than everyone else, and can therefore makes his visions of the future real. Hence, when Yoda and his apprentice, Ben, come up with a plan, even though they use Force insight to help them, they know that it may not play exactly as they've foreseen. They hope it will, they believe they can do things to increase the odds of it succeeding, but they don't know. [See SW5 Ben: "Even Yoda cannot see their fate."] Therefore, they can be surprised when something "unexpected" occurs.

Their language about the future is never so certain as the Emperor's. Even when they try to dissuade Luke from leaving Dagobah in SW5, they don't say that his leaving will automatically ruin things. They give him the choice, make him fully aware of the possible consequences if his tranining remains uncompleted, and then hope for the best once Luke makes matters worse.

So I agree with you that what's unexpected is that Vader's revealed his true nature to Luke. There were many more things likely than that. Maybe Luke wouldn't be able to control his anger while defending his friends, making him more suceptible to the Dark Side. Maybe he would die a totally senseless death in an aerial battle. Maybe the Emperor would've bypassed Vader altogether and tried to persuade him to join the Sith at a time when Luke really wasn't ready. Maybe Luke would face Vader and be struck down easily, because he couldn't focus properly.

I think it really was unexpected that Vader should try to gain parental sympathy in the middle of a deadly battle. I mean, honestly, that's just a weird thing to do. What was Vader thinking? "I need to reconnect with the son I've never really seen before. What can I do to impress him? I know! I'll freeze his best friend in Carbonite, rough up the girl he's interested in (again), have his droid dismantled, crush the cause he believes in, fight him in a duel, attempt to freeze him in carbonite, hurl heavy objects at him, fight him some more, lop off his hand, and then I'll introduce myself as his father. He's sure to call me "daddy" after all that..."

Having said that, I think that they wanted to be in control of when and how Luke came to know Vader was Anakin. And while Yoda found Vader's revelation unexpected, I think they must've thought the more time Luke spent out of their sight the greater the likelihood of someone else telling him would be. Why would Ben have spent so much of his life being Luke's "guardian angel" if he felt any differently?

At the end of the day, though, it comes down to what "expected" means. Many people commonly assume it means "likely". But it means "virtually certain." That's why pregnant women are described as "expecting" a baby not "likely to have" a baby. If it rains, and you're standing in the rain, it's not just likely you're going to get wet: you expect it. So I don't think Yoda expected Luke would find out who Vader was. But it was a possibility, maybe even a probability, and they therefore thought their careful, multi-decade plan was in jeopardy by his departure.

 

Björn makes the assertion, Everything Obi says indicates that Obi considers Anakin dead and gone. Please provide evidence of anything Ben says in the OT which is either a) true in a literal, verifiable sense or b) direct and to the point you're trying to make. And before you repeat yourself, the "twisted and evil" line doesn't count because it's in no way direct. In the words of any two-bit lawyer on his first case outta law school: "Yes or no, please, Mr. Kenobi. Did you believe there was still good in Darth Vader?"

(To refresh everyone's memory, the SW6 lines go:

Luke: There is still good in him.
Ben: He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.)

 

I'll do the honors for Bjorn.

"Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed."

"I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader."

"Vader was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights."
(I couldn't put down the part where he says Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father because it's officially a red herring thanks to the revelation in ESB).

"Then the Emperor has already won"-in response to Luke not wanting to kill his own father.

These quotes suggest that Ben has lost all faith in Anakin and doesn't want him to be redeemed.

 

Okay, let's go line-by-line.

"Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed." This statement is false. Anakin was not literally destroyed. This is a didactic interpretation of events. He's making a point, so that Luke understands the seriousness of events. It's exaggeration for effect. It in no way implies that a resurrection of Anakin is impossible. Reigious leaders always do this. They make things look bleak to get your attention and focus your actions. But at the back of every religion is the hope of resurrection.

"I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader." For me, the focus of this line are the words "the way". I think you're putting the emphasis on the word "lost". But put this line in context. He's arguing for Luke not to stop his training just to save his friends. He's trying to get Luke to see the bigger picture. I think what this directly implies is that Anakin was trying to do good when he was seduced by Palpatine. Just because something or someone is "lost", there is no implication that it can't be found. Indeed, something's not "lost" unless you're trying to find it.

Speculation It's my guess that we'll see Anakin fall to the Dark Side because he's trying to save his mother from slavery

"Vader was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights." This is maybe the only strictly factual, completely verifiable line Ben says about Anakin. (Well, verifiable after SW2 and 3 are made.) But it holds no implication whatsoever about Anakin's possible redemption. It's just a statement of the fact he turned to evil and what evil he did.

"Then the Emperor has already won" This line is the second half of an if-then hypothesis. It's clearly not a statement of fact. Plus, it isn't even speaking to Ben's beliefs about Anakin. If you were to add in the "if" clause, "I can't kill my own father", then you might assume that Ben's advocating killing Anakin, which would imply that Ben's given up all hope. But Ben's doing no such thing. Indeed, Ben's line immediately prior to Luke's is, "You must face Darth Vader again." This mirrors Yoda's sentiment that Luke must "confront" Vader in order to be a Jedi. You must be very careful, I think, to avoid using Luke's statements, which Ben does not correct, as evidence that Ben agrees completely with what Luke posits. Structurally, Luke is us. He's our window into the SW universe. He's the character we're supposed to identify with. So he asks the questions we would ask. It's dangerous to assume, however, that what Luke thinks is what Ben thinks, even if Ben doesn't correct him. See, if Ben corrected him, and said, "No, I didn't say "kill" Vader", then we'd lose the surprise of the ending. Dramatically, it's better if Ben says nothing. But it's not just dramatic manipulation. It also makes sense that he wouldn't correct Luke, because Luke must be willing to kill his own father if he's to be a credible threat.

Moving beyond these specific examples, my broader point is that nowhere in the films does Ben express a simple, clear belief that Anakin's beyond redemption. His whole life after SW3 is about training Luke. Everything he ever says to Luke (and almost all his lines are directed at Luke), are designed to train him. Like Yoda, his lines are instructively enigmatic--even manipulative. If you believe that Ben doesn't think Anakin can be saved, then you have to conclude that Luke thought of saving his father all on his own. And that turns Ben into merely an old wizard with an axe to grind, and Yoda into a hermit in a swamp who knows how to do some magic tricks. By ignoring the centrality of Ben to this tale, you deny yourself the true majesty of Star Wars. The greatness of ROTJ is that he doesn't merely save his father. He doesn