How come Ben didn't know that Leia was "the other" ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by ryanof1, Aug 14, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DeVore420 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 1
    I missed a few days so I won't rehash too much old gunk, but perhaps a few items of interest:

    PMT99:

    I think this is pretty clear, "killing is not the answer" message."

    Is that so? Then why wasn't that message made clear when in TPM, we see another Jedi kill a Sith lord? That Jedi didn't turn to the Dark Side when he did that so it's pretty clear that a Jedi can still kill people without going to the dark side in the process.


    I've never suggested that Jedi cannot kill without going to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan in TPM was in mortal danger due to Maul - hanging on the edge, clearly about to be swiped at by our horned-head friend.

    The "killing is not the answer" message pertains strictly, in this case, to Luke with respect to Anakin / Vader. Were Luke to kill his father, as you've suggested Ben and Yoda wish him to do, he would have fallen to the Dark Side, and then the galaxy would be lost, the Jedi would be extinct, and neither Vader nor Obi-Wan would have been redeemed. Luke is forced to make a difficult choice, and it's all of the training he's received so far from Yoda and Ben that helps him to make the right one, and throw his lightsaber away and refuse to kill. As DarthSkeptical points out, this is what saves EVERYTHING.

    Note that: what saves EVERYTHING is Luke's choice NOT to kill. I have to believe that Ben and Yoda were wise enough to see this was the only way out, and that's why I find it impossible to believe that they wanted Luke to kill Vader / Anakin.

    If Obi-wan knew about Leia, why didn't the Emperor sensed this? I mean he has this uncanny ability to predict the future like he knew who Luke was, that he'd destroyed both him and Vader(though it didn't happen like that), and he knew that the rebels would attack which is why he set a trap for them and since he can predict everything, he should have known about Leia as well.

    Wrong.

    1. It's clear that the Emperor's ability to predict the future is quite flawed. Everything most definitely did NOT turn out as he had forseen. To tell you the truth, I suspect that the Emperor could see very little of the future, but rather used it as a tool to turn events to his favor.

    2. The Emperor apparently cannot "feel" Luke:

    VADER
    A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield
    and landed on Endor.

    EMPEROR (no surprise)
    Yes, I know.

    VADER (after a beat)
    My son is with them.

    EMPEROR (very cool)
    Are you sure?

    VADER
    I have felt him, my Master.

    EMPEROR
    Strange, that I have not. I wonder if your
    feelings on this matter are clear, Lord
    Vader.

    Vader knows what is being asked.

    VADER
    They are clear, my Master.

    EMPEROR
    Then you must go to the Sanctuary Moon and
    wait for them.

    VADER (skeptical)
    He will come to me?

    EMPEROR
    I have foreseen it. His compassion for you
    will be his undoing. He will come to you and
    then you will bring him before me.


    So, not only does this passage indicate that the Emperor cannot (at least in this case) sense Luke's presence, but it also IMHO illustrates that the Emperor is less using prescience and more just logical deduction - Luke is seeking out Vader because of his compassion for his father.

    "The simple absence of information about X(Vader) cannot conclusively prove that Y(Leia is the other hope)."

    You got that backwards because if there's no information to pinpoint on Vader being the other hope, then you can't prove that he is.


    Yes, I agree. But what you were saying was that because Yoda never says anything directly about the good left in Vader, it must mean that Leia is the other hope. Go back and read your own post - I was pointing out that your reasoning is logically flawed. You cannot posit the _absence_ of informaton about the good in Vader as proof that the other hope is Leia.

    All this proves that Leia is the other hope.

    -She's a skywalker


    That doesn't prove she's the other hope. All Yoda said was, "No, there is another." He could have been referring to anyone, or anything. Remember, this line is NOT the sa
  2. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Someone a few posts back, probably PMT99 said that Han and Leia's marriage is not mentioned but indicated in the films. How, exactly? It's possible to watch the films and believe they've not even had sex yet, much less marriage. (And before you say it, yes, scoundrels do things in that order.) If anything, SW5 indicates that Han is "as good as gone". Surely you don't think that a few kisses, affectionate glances, and hugs amount to a marriage proposal. I'll grant that the death of Jabba frees Han up and makes it more likely he can hang around, but there's so much wiggle room left by Lucas that anything might've happened in the theoretical ST. At the very least, you've got a long and interesting love story after ROTJ before they get anywhere close to marriage.
  3. DeVore420 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 1
    I realize this is a bit, off-topic, but I'm curious what you think about this, DarthSkeptical:

    And don't be down on Lucas. He knows story. He just doesn't know dialogue.

    So, do you believe that his story will somehow reconcile what I see as a major "break" in the story:

    - In the OT, both the story itself, and the portrayal of Force draw largely upon Taoist notions: "Do, or do not. There is no try." "Let go your conscious self and act on instinct!" "Let go, Luke!"

    - In TPM, the Force seems to draw largely upon Christian notions: Anakin's "immaculate conception" via a poor woman, the fact that those strong in the Force must have "royal blood" (high in midichlorians), the idea of a "prophecy of the coming of the Chosen One."

    I've always seen this as Lucas dropping the ball, story-wise. Infact, it was this part of TPM that finally broke my faith in Lucas as a good storyteller. How do you reconcile this and still hold him in high regard as a storyteller? I'm curious.

    EDIT: Nice signature. :)
  4. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    I obviously have a high tolerance for wandering off-topic, but I think that this may be straying a bit too far, as we're now into full-on speculation about SW2 and 3. Maybe you should start a thread with this theme on the SW2&3 boards. Quickly, though, I'd say the following:

    First, I don't understand your "royal blood" assertion. Christianity seems more concerned with the "meek inheriting the Earth" notion.

    Second, I've struggled with midi-chlorians as well. I've even made posts here railing against the stupidity of the buggers, and how it reduces The Force to a matter of mere science. But on deeper reflection, they may make some sense in that without some kind of special, irreproducable natural phenomenon like midi-chlorians, the Jedi could've just cloned themselves early in the conflict and easily overwhelmed the Empire in its infancy.

    Third, immaculate conception. A toughy. Yes, it seems distinctly Christian. But again it might speak to the dramatic problems cloning presents. If the midi-chlorians are capable of actually creating life, it gets around the potentially larger plot hole we might ask 5 years from now when we all scratch our heads and say, "Hey, wait a minute, why didn't the Council just clone a thousand of these super powerful Anakin types and be done with it?" In the end, midi-chlorians and Force-conception might just be terribly clever on GL's part.

    Fourth, prophecy. This prophecy thing's actually been around for a long time. It wasn't some cheap thing added to TPM at the last minute. It was in the second draft of ANH, and is what might have preceded the Star Wars logo rather than "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away". That draft had the series starting with a quote, "And in time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as: THE SON OF THE SUN" ("Journal of the Whills," 3:12). (Source Bouzerau, Laurent. Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays. 1997. p. 6) If I'm not mistaken, one of the drafts, which Bouzerau does not fully quote, but that is available [link=http://www.starwarz.com]here[/link], actually has Mace Windu narrating the story, and mentioning this prophecy. So the filmed TPM isn't really that far off Lucas' original notes.

    As for its literary/religious implications, I personally am not that troubled by it. I won't pretend to have the same kind of understanding of the Taoist-Christian shift you see in the two trilogies, but I will say that I don't particularly see it as evidence that Lucas has lost his edge. Prophecies are cool plot devices, IMHO. From a literary standpoint, the prophecy's existance helps us understand that Yoda and Ben couldn't completely give up on Anakin, because he was the Chosen One...and, therefore, the "other".


  5. jade_angel Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2001
    star 4
    Star Wars has always been about a mix of religion, good vs evil like in every popular religion and such.

    I don't really see what's so bad about TPM taking on a more 'christian-like' feel to it. After all, it still sticks with that whole Taoist theory as well. Yoda's famous line about fear leading to hate. Heck, Lucu has made it even more clear that he was focusing more on the Taoist thing by using the Living Force and Cosmic Force: Tao and Chi.

    You'll also notice that TPM has taking interests in Asian cultures through Queen Amidala's dresses, and taken interests European architecture: Naboo. It also has a New Yorker sense with Coruscant.

    ROTJ also had a Christian sense to it with the aspect of Anakin's redemption, but you're right, it has a more Taoist feel to it.
  6. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "Were Luke to kill his father, as you've suggested Ben and Yoda would wish him to do, he would have fallen to the Dark Side, and then the galaxy would be lost, the Jedi would be extinct, and neither Vader nor Obi-wan would have been redeemed."

    Like I said, Luke would have to give in to his anger and hatred while doing so in order for his fall to the Dark Side to be possible.

    The Emperor suggested this when he tried to tempt Luke into killing him, "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete"--that suggest that Luke has to give in to his anger and hatred while he strikes down Vader in order for his fall to the Dark Side to be possible.

    I was suggesting that Luke can still kill Vader WITHOUT giving in to his hate and anger to do so and plus, if Luke didn't kill Vader and the Emperor then he himself will die by their hands, and the galaxy will still be lost, the Jedi will still be extinct, and neither Vader and Obi-wan will still get a chance at redemption.

    Again, "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't".

    "I think that Yoda DOES NOT consider Anakin/Vader to be damned."

    These quotes Yoda made about Anakin/Vader begs to differ.

    "Beware. Anger, Fear, Agression-the Dark Side of the Force are they, quick to join you when you fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny---consume you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice."

    "If you end your training now--if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did, you would become an agent of evil."

    "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will".

    That to me indicates that Yoda believes that Anakin/Vader is long gone when he became a Sith and joined the Emperor.

    "The fact that Vader actually ACKNOWLEDGES that he WAS Anakin Skywalker is VERY thoughtful."

    Yeah but the way he reacted to that name wasn't very thoughtful because he went a little bezerk when Luke said the name so he pointed his son's lightsaber at him in response to the name by saying "That name no longer has any meaning for me".

    He hated the name so much because it represented what he used to be in the past and it also caused him to relive all the horrific events that led him to becoming Vader like the losses of Qui-Gon, his mother Shmi, Padme, and his being kept in the dark about his offspring.

    He wanted nothing to do with that name anymore which is why what he said in response to Luke saying the name Anakin Skywalker wasn't very thoughtful.
  7. Bjorn75 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    DarthSkeptical:Ahh, Björn. Good lad. You've seen the next level of the argument. All is proceeding as I have foreseen....

    What, you think you're some kind of Sith, waving your cane around like that? I'm with the JC - mind tricks don't work on me, only reason. ;)

    You answered my direct question on what Yoda meant by "unexpected", and I agree with you, that Vader's revelation was a surprise to him. However, it seems that you missed my point: What is it about the current situation that is unexpected and unfortunate?

    Since Luke got out of there alive, what is there to still consider unfortunate? Luke's mistake is made, he jeopardized his life and training - but he made it, thanks to his good luck and (hinted at in ROTJ) Vader's inner conflict. He made it back, he survived.
    Yoda's line suggests to me that something bad has happened, even considering Luke surviving.

    You say it was Luke finding out prematurly. If so - what is then unfortunate about the situation, considered that Luke made it back? There's nothing wrong with his training, Yoda says "already know you, that which you need". The only thing left is confronting Vader. If there was something wrong with Luke, wouldn't Yoda say something? No, instead he repeats the same old mantra: "Once you start down..."
    Yoda says "Not ready for the burden were you". Well... Luke got the burden, he got through, possibly despite not being ready for it.

    I say it was Luke finding out in the first place, it is the only plausible explanation for Yoda's distress. Yoda does not seem pleased to admit that Vader was telling the truth, Luke had to insist on knowing. In fact, going into details, don't the movies show that Yoda was trying to dismiss Luke by turning his back on him? If Luke had not insisted, perhaps Yoda would not have said anything at all, ever?

    Yoda - "Mmm...rest I need. Yes... rest."

    And this is before he even knows that Luke found out from Vader first.

    Luke made it back, and Yoda still considers it unfortunate. Unfortunate that he went in the first place, not fortunate that he made it back. I think this means that Yoda's plans are still in jeopardy, meaning that things are not as Yoda would have liked them to be.

    Since nothing else seems to be wrong -
    Does this not suggest that Yoda would prefer that Luke did not know?

    Sorry to sound like I'm repeating myself, but I was kinda provoked by the "Good lad"-thing. :)

    Björn
  8. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    I think I may well be missing your point, Björn, because it kind of sounds like we're in agreement. The unexpected thing is that Yoda's plans (the crux of which is being able to control when Luke finds out his true lineage) have, in fact, been thwarted by Vader's surprise revelation.

    Where we differ, it seems to me, is not on what's unexpected, but rather on what's unfortunate. That is, you believe that Yoda considers Vader's revelation unfortunate because Ben and Yoda never meant to reveal who Luke's father really was, and I say he was waiting until the appropriate moment.

    I don't think that he intended to send Luke off to the final battle without fully informing him. Indeed, I think the plan all along was to make sure he had Force Mastery, then tell him, so he wouldn't be distracted from his training. That way, the confrontation could've been better-managed. Yoda might have even wished to send Luke off with a clear plan of action--a mission, if you will--in much the same way that the Jedi had been sent on specific missions throughout their tenure in the Old Republic. But Vader's revelation pre-empts that plan, bringing Luke's emotions in play before his training in even basic Force techniques is complete. Sure, he made it back okay, but that's not the point. The careful plans that Yoda and Ben had lain for decades were now threatened by the unpredictability of Luke's emotions. Yoda had to be wondering, "Will Luke resent Ben and I for not telling him, and will that resentment push him away from our training to this point? Will he be able to control himself in the final confrontation, or will his anger cloud his judgement? Will he understand why we did what we did, or will he think we just lied to him?"
  9. Bjorn75 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    DarthSkeptical asks me to provide evidence that Obi-Wan says something in the OT that is direct and to the point I am trying to make.

    I am sorry for not responding fast enough, thank you PMT99 for helping me out. Sadly it is to no avail, as seen later in DarthSkeptical's reply.
    If presumptions of ObiWan's motivations
    are made and stuck by, everything Obi-Wan says can be spun around with a bit of creative interpretation.

    If nothing of what Obi-wan says should be taken literally and trusted, then what do we really think of Obi-wan? How's that for minimizing his importance? Then he is just a man who talks in riddles and cannot be trusted.
    "There, you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi master who instructed me."
    Is this line to be taken literally? Of course it is. Why? Is there some rule as to what ObiWan says that should be taken literally? Is it not more honorable for ObiWan to tell the truth, how he actually feels? In that case he only plays spin-doctor once - When he tells Luke Darth betrayed and murdered his Father. This is excusable, because he wanted Luke to admire his father and want to follow his footsteps. The other times he spoke of Anakin, to have Obi-Wan actually believe he could be redeemed while still saying what he said makes him a flat-out LIAR.

    Are we really to believe that Luke is better trained through deceit? Why not instead belive that Obi-wan did what he thought was right, but Luke found a better way?
    My view does not make Obi-Wan and Yoda look like stupid fools. They become honorable truthful characters who say things that make sense, characters that can be trusted. They are not without fault, since their way of doing things simply wasn't the best, or the only way. Luke wins the day by using things learned from Yoda and Ben, combined with the feelings he has for his father. Obi-wan still gets redeemed in the end, but it is not neccesary to think that what happened was planned all along.

    Björn
  10. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Those are very good points, Björn.

    I guess that one line is fairly literally true. I stand corrected. There is an instance, after all. Of course, Ben wasn't Yoda's padawan, as Luke is. But that's nitpicking. He does instruct Ben.

    But I think you're casting a negative light where I didn't intend one. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Ben's creative use of language. You seem to be saying that he's deceiving Luke, and I'm saying he's instructing him. You don't tell students the full truth in any situation because it confuses them. For instance, a math teacher in an elementary school setting will say that you can't subtract 3 from 2. Of course you can, but that will introduce the concept of negative numbers before it's time to do so. That doesn't make the teacher a liar or deceitful. That makes them appropriately focussed. And I guess this is all I thought Ben and Yoda were doing: teaching progressively.

    The reasons I'm not comfortable with ascribing Luke the talent to come up with a better way on his own are twofold. First, it diminishes the role of the teacher. Second, it's obvious in the SW5 cave sequence that Yoda's directly training Luke to not rely on his weapons--the very notion that carries the day. I take the point others have made that he's teaching him not to attack out of anger, but I also think he's also saying "Don't attack at all." In other words, I don't think the cave exercise is merely general. I think it's specific to the final encounter. If it had been any other foe but Vader in the cave, I think you could dismiss it as "anger management therapy." As it stands, I think the lesson is, "The only way to defeat Vader is to put down your weapon and completely trust the Force."
  11. bigbird Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    Moving beyond these specific examples, my broader point is that nowhere in the films does Ben express a simple, clear belief that Anakin's beyond redemption.

    This was already addressed, actually:

    Vader: "Obi-Wan once thought as you did" [thinking there was a chance of coming back from the Dark Side]

    I think that it is open to interpretation throughout the rest of the movie whether or not Ben had any faith left in Vader--but I think this kinda clinches it right here. Sure, it's Vader saying it, not Ben...so Vader could think that Ben has no faith left in him, whereas Ben still thinks there is a glimmer of hope for him.

    Yoda, though, I think always has faith in Vader's ability for redemption.

    And I'm still maintaining that the concept of 'transcending' the Dark Side is what's necessary in order to become a true Jedi. Luke and Vader BOTH gave into the hate and anger of the Dark Side (Luke would have killed the Emperor if not for Vader's saber stopping him--so Luke had already made the mental decision to use hate and the Dark Side.) Luke transcended the Dark Side by throwing down his saber, and Vader made the same transcendence several minutes later.

    I think this concept of transcendence very clearly explains any/all the behaviours of Yoda and Ben in the training of Luke (and probably how _all_ Jedi training was done.) They have to teach the essential skills necessary to be a Jedi, but it's pivotal in Jedi training to set them up mentally so that they must make conscious decisions about good/evil on their own...otherwise they will never be able to transcend the Dark Side.

    Using this concept, things become easier:

    -Dagobah Cave: A mini-test for Luke, which he failed.
    -Not telling Luke about Vader: Essential, because they wanted him to confront VADER (the Dark Side persona), and not his father.
    -"Then I am a Jedi.""No, you must confront Vader": Vader as the embodiment of the Dark Side. Luke had to face the Dark Side itself, stare it in the face, and transcend it. Only by understanding and experiencing the evil could he transcend it and become a true Jedi Knight.

    That's why every schmoe can't be a Jedi Knight--they have to learn the skills of Force mastery, but also (more importantly) make some amazing mental transformations that permanently alters the way their mind behaves towards the universe.
  12. Bjorn75 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    Actually, I didn't mean it that way. Perhaps I sometimes fail to present my thoughts clearly.

    I didn't actually mean that line to be the "evidence" you requested, I was rather trying to detach myself from the quote-slugging. (By the way - you are right, the complaint you make about its truthfulness is a valid one - given TPM.)

    What I meant was that it is one of ObiWans's lines that has to be trusted, or the movie would make no sense. I was critizing the (from my standpoint) arbitrary distrust shown towards Obi-Wan. If this particular line should be regarded as true, why consider his other lines false, or "creative"? And vice versa.

    But it is of minor importance - We seem to have found the core of our difference.
    Your math teacher teaches his students into his own image. The students absorb what the teacher says, do what the teacher does. Total obedience, no room for mutual exchange. The student is to accept anything the Teacher says. The objective is for the students to become what the Teacher is. (Please correct me, if you consider this an unfair interpretation)

    I do not like the idea of having total obedience from student to teacher, without having respect from teacher to student. Having first told Luke one thing, and then presumably some time later turn around completely and tell him the opposite thing would not be respectful, and is not worthy of a great Jedi Master, I think. I would rather have Yoda as a great and proud Jedi Master, who believes that the Emperor and Vader are a menace to the Universe, so they must be destroyed. He tries to create a Jedi in Luke, making him the same way he always made Jedi - the Jedi we see in TPM, Jedi students plucked in their infancy so that they would not be too tainted by the non-jedi world. It is possible that Luke went away to Bespin as part of a rebellion against Yoda's way of making him depart from his friends and his humanity. Perhaps Luke would have failed if he had become too calm, detached, old-school-Jedi-like?

    This is where my speculation begins, for what is the balance of the force if not being both passionate and in control of that passion? Simply banishing ones fear/passion/emotion does not make one good, it is like medieval christianity - cursing the flesh. I see Yoda not as an objective spokesperson from the Force, but a character with his own beliefs, his own agenda. Not at all a bad agenda, just his own.

    The next 2 movies will definitely prove me right or wayyyyy wrong, I feel great enthusiasm about the way TPM started, but if I am proven wrong, I'll enjoy SW just as much anyway. :)

    If you were to study for Yoda, I guess you would become a great Jedi. Me, I would probably end up like Anakin... ;)

    Björn
  13. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    BigBird-

    If Yoda and Ben believes there's still hope for Anakin/Vader, why do they always sound like they believed that there is no hope for Anakin?

    Every quote posted in this thread suggested that they tried to bring Anakin back to the light but failed miserably and that there's nothing they can do for him anymore except put him out of his misery.

    Throughout Luke's training, they've motivated him into believing that Anakin and Vader are two seperate people and that they wanted him to defeat Vader and none of the movies indicated that they ever wanted to tell Luke the truth about his father anytime soon.

    By the time Luke eventually found out about his father, Yoda and Ben are faced with a crisis--they believed that Luke is about to head down the same path that his father, Anakin went(which is not really happening) so they continue to tell him that his father is long gone and that Luke must defeat him.
  14. DeVore420 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 1
    DarthSkeptical:

    Thanks for commenting on my question. I'll be brief since I agree this is pretty far off-topic. :)

    You make two good points that make me feel somewhat better about Lucas's storytelling abilities, though in my mind he's still going to have to fight an uphill battle to convince me.

    1. The notion that the midichlorians are a way to get out of the "Why don't they just clone the Jedi?" question. I hadn't thought of that. As much as I hate the midichlorians because I too think it relagates the Force to mere science, perhaps this is a valid reason to introduce them.

    2. Thanks for the link to that older ANH draft with the quote about the coming of the chosen one. I thought this notion was something Lucas came up with in 1997 when he started working on the script for TPM. This gives me a little more faith that Lucas isn't making all of this up on the fly (though I still suspect he's doing this to some degree, but I guess that's to be expected.)

    jade_angel:

    Heck, Lucu has made it even more clear that he was focusing more on the Taoist thing by using the Living Force and Cosmic Force: Tao and Chi.

    Wow. Great point. I never even caught that. Neat.
  15. DeVore420 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 1
    PMT99:

    I was suggesting that Luke can still kill Vader WITHOUT giving in to his hate and anger to do so

    IMHO, that's impossible. Luke _knows_ there's good left in Vader. He is _convinced_ of it. He allows himself to be captured on Endor because he's so sure of the good left in Vader.

    There is no way he could have killed his father, knowing that there is good in him, without giving into hate and anger and falling to the Dark Side. Impossible. He almost does, at the end of ROTJ, and when he looks at his hand and his father's hand, he is reminded of their relationship and chooses to continue to believe in the good in Vader.

    I'd say the same would go for any Jedi - it would be impossible, I think, for them to kill someone that they KNOW there is good inside of. Willingly killing someone they KNOW has goodness in them, would take them to the Dark Side.

    and plus, if Luke didn't kill Vader and the Emperor then he himself will die by their hands, and the galaxy will still be lost, the Jedi will still be extinct, and neither Vader and Obi-wan will still get a chance at redemption.

    I don't understand what you mean. Luke _doesn't_ kill Vader, and he _doesn't_ die, the galaxy is saved, the Jedi aren't extinct, and both Vader and Obi-wan are redeemed. What did you mean when you said that none of this would happen if Luke didn't kill Vader? We see it in the movie - Luke _does not_ kill Vader, and non of what you said happens.

    It's the very fact that Luke _DOES NOT_ kill Vader that brings all of this about. You said that the opposite is true, but it's not what we see happen in the movie.

    He hated the name so much because it represented what he used to be in the past and it also caused him to relive all the horrific events that led him to becoming Vader like the losses of Qui-Gon, his mother Shmi, Padme, and his being kept in the dark about his offspring.

    Umm... right. That's exactly why it was thoughtful of him to even _TALK_ about his former name. He's coming closer to acknowledging his true self.

    Vader never talks about himself in any of the previous movies. The very fact that he's engaging in dialog about it, even if it's negative, is indicative that his loyalty to the Dark Side is at least on his mind.

    He wanted nothing to do with that name anymore which is why what he said in response to Luke saying the name Anakin Skywalker wasn't very thoughtful.

    If he wasn't being thoughtful, he would have said nothing.

    If Yoda and Ben believes there's still hope for Anakin/Vader, why do they always sound like they believed that there is no hope for Anakin?

    It's already been shown in this thread that they do not believe there is no hope for Anakin. No need to rehash this. What Ben and Yoda do say is too ambiguous to draw the conclusion that there is "no hope" for Anakin.

    Every quote posted in this thread suggested that they tried to bring Anakin back to the light but failed miserably and that there's nothing they can do for him anymore except put him out of his misery.

    Huh? Show me some quotes that illustrate the two points you just made.

    1. Show me a quote that suggests that Yoda or Ben "tried to bring Anakin back to the light."

    2. I agree that Ben indicates ONCE, INDIRECTLY that he thinks Luke ought to _kill_ Vader, but there's no evidence to support the notion that Yoda wanted Anakin to be killed. Infact, he says the exact opposite via the Cave lesson.

    ... none of the movies indicated that they ever wanted to tell Luke the truth about his father anytime soon.

    Not true. Look:

    1. Yoda _does_ tell him the truth:

    LUKE
    Yoda, I must know.

    YODA
    Your father he is.

    2. It's clear that they _were_ going to tell him eventually:

    YODA (gathering all his strength)
    No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face
    him... that incomplete was your training. Not
    ready for the burden were you.

    Yoda, at least, didn't tell him because he didn't feel Luke was ready for the burden. But I think it's implied
  16. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Björn, I think maybe you're understanding my point, but putting a slightly darker shading on it than I would. All I'm saying is that there's an order to be taught things. When you're trying to teach a kid basic arithmetic, the concept of negative numbers can make things confusing. If you're trying to make sure a student understands how to multiply, it's not the time to teach trigonometry. If you're trying to learn Swedish, you're not going to start by trying to translate Shakespeare. You're going to start with understanding basic grammar and vocabulary. In the same way, I think Yoda was merely trying to make sure Luke knew how to use the Force before giving him a specific reason to do so.

    Servile obedience isn't what I'm necessarily suggesting. I'm only talking about proper sequencing. I think the instructional method of the Jedi does trend towards a stricter, more formal relationship than is common in real life classrooms--I mean, Jedi do call their teachers "Master"--but I don't think it's a relationship where there's a loss of respect between teacher and student. Qui-Gon does, after all, call Obi-Wan "wiser" than him.
  17. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    BigBird, above, quotes the following line to make a point:

    Vader: "Obi-Wan once thought as you did" [thinking there was a chance of coming back from the Dark Side]

    I think that it is open to interpretation throughout the rest of the movie whether or not Ben had any faith left in Vader--but I think this kinda clinches it right here. Sure, it's Vader saying it, not Ben...so Vader could think that Ben has no faith left in him, whereas Ben still thinks there is a glimmer of hope for him.


    I can't accept Vader as a serious reference. He's trying to lure Luke to the Dark Side here. He's evil, remember? There are so many flaws with using this as a reason to believe Ben had lost his hope, I don't even know where to begin.

    Here are a few:
    1. He's flat out lying to Luke, simply to prove to Luke that his redemption is impossible, and Luke's cause hopeless
    2. He's lying to himself, outloud, and the line is half-sollioquy. He feels the conflict with himself, and so he's trying to verbalize his inability to be turned in order to quiet his own inner doubt.
    3. He's talking out his ass. It's been years since he even saw Ben. How could he possibly know what Ben actually thinks?
    4. He's referring to a specific incident, yet to be revealed in the PT, in which Ben appears to walk away from Anakin, but which really marks the beginning of the plan to save Vader through the use of Luke
    5. It's just his opinion, unsupported by facts or knowledge of Ben's thoughts (This is kind of what you bring up above.)
    6. Gramatically, the word "once" displays the speaker's bias, not fact. If I say "Once you said you loved me", my lover might say, "Yeah, but I don't now", or "I still do". It doesn't at all mean that it can't have happened again, or that it's not a continuous truth. It just means that the speaker is emphasizing that one instance.


  18. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "That's impossible.

    There's no way he could have killed his father, knowing that there is good in him, without giving in to hate and angere and falling to the Dark Side."

    Nothing is impossible because again, we have seen other Jedi kill without falling to the Dark Side in the process and I don't believe that Luke would be any different. If he knows there is good in Vader, he would never have engaged in a lightsaber combat against him but Vader left him with no other alternative.

    If Luke killed him out of self-defense, he wouldn't fall to the Dark Side as you've always suggested he would and if he did the same to the Emperor, he still wouldn't fall.

    "I don't understand what you mean.

    What did you mean when you said that none of this would have happen if Luke didn't kill Vader."

    Hello? Did you not watch the part where the Emperor was frying Luke with his Force lightning? If Vader just stood there letting the Emperor fry his own son, then it's clear that Luke would have died, thus the galaxy would still be lost, the Jedi will still be extinct, and Vader and Obi-wan would never get a chance at redemption(In fact, Vader would never have been redeemed at all had he NOT lifted a finger to help his own son Luke).

    Vader has always come close to killing Luke and each time he kept sparing his life(he would have killed him the first time had Han not interfeared) so he would get him to turn to the Dark Side and use him to kill the Emperor so he can take his place as the Sith Master with Luke as his apprentice and he had no intention of going back to the lightside until he saw his son getting fried.

    The Emperor had a similar idea because he knew that Vader would be up to something now that Luke came into the picture so he would tempt Luke into killing Vader so he would have a new apprentice and that he wouldn't have to worry about losing his own life.

    Luke wasn't that gullible so he toyed with the "only 2 Sith" rule by not joining either which in turn caused the 2 Sith lords to kill each other.

    "If he wasn't being thoughtful, he would have said nothing."

    What I mean is if he was being thoughtful, he should have been proud of Luke for saying that name instead of being hostile.

    "It's already been shown in this thread that they do not believe that there is no hope for Anakin."

    How do you figure that? Yoda and Obi-wan have given no such indication that they had second thoughts about Anakin or that there is still hope in his turning back to the light side.

    If this was the case, they would never forced Luke into fighting Vader to the death.

    "Show me a quote that suggests that Yoda or Ben "tried to bring Anakin back to the light"."

    LUKE: There is still good in him.
    OBI-WAN: He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil.

    This suggests that Obi-wan tried turning Anakin back to the light once but failed miserably and Yoda may have not tried to turn Anakin back but I think he never wanted to because with everything that is happening like the Jedi's demise and the Sith taking over the universe, it is clear that Yoda wanted no part of Anakin anymore.

    Episode 3 will make this more clear.

    "There's no evidence to support the notion that Yoda wants Anakin killed."

    There is this one quote, "You must confront Vader. Then and only then a Jedi you will be".

    Before you shoot this down, I have here a definition of "cofront" from Webster's college dictionary:

    Confront=To come face to face with, especially with defiance or hostility.

    Here's one for "confrontation":

    Confrontation=The act of confronting or the state of being confronted, especially a meeting face to face.

    These definitions suggest that Yoda wants Luke to fight Vader to the death.

    "Yoda_does_tell him the truth."

    Yeah....right after Luke found out about his father.

    "It's clear that they_were_going to tell him eventually."

    Really? When? Why wait until ROTJ after Luke had just found out about his father's supposed death from.....his own father who is now Darth Vader? I understand that he wasn't ready for the
  19. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    PMT99 says of his Webester's definitions of confront, These definitions suggest that Yoda wants Luke to fight Vader to the death

    Huh?

    I don't understand how you get from the word "confront" to the word "kill", especially using the definitions you offer. Just because you oppose someone doesn't mean you're going to kill them. Nowhere in my copy of Webster is "kill" equated to "confront". Rather, the synonyms I see are "withstand", "resist", "oppose", "fight", and the verb form of "combat" (i.e. com-BAT, rather than COM-bat). According to my thesaurus, none of these words are synonyms for "kill".

    I hope you don't really equate confrontation to death. Does anyone else in this thread suddenly feel less inclined to discuss this thread with PMT99 in real life?
  20. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    PMT99 also says, If Luke killed him out of self-defense, he wouldn't fall to the Dark Side as you've always suggested he would and if he did the same to the Emperor, he still wouldn't fall. emphasis added.

    You can't kill someone out of self-defense if you're hoping to kill them when you encounter them. That's why Yoda and Obi can't possibly have meant to send him there to kill Vader. Thus they tell him directly only to "face" and "confront" Vader. Yoda and Mace Windu do this same thing with Qui-Gon when they send him on their mission to encounter Darth Maul. They don't say "go kill him". They say go and uncover the secret of the Sith (or somesuch similar language).
  21. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    PMT99 additionally posits, I understand that he wasn't ready for the burden yet but there's no way of knowing what Luke would have done had he did know about Anakin/Vader. Luke isn't that stupid enough to repeat the same mistakes his father...

    If "there's no way of knowing what Luke would have done," how can you so confidently assert that "Luke isn't stupid enough to repeat the same mistakes as his father"? You can't have it both ways.
  22. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Blörn says, If you were to study for Yoda, I guess you would become a great Jedi. Me, I would probably end up like Anakin...

    Nahhh, you'd be Qui-Gon.
  23. Moriah Organa of Alderaan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 1999
    star 3
    Force but this is a headache inducing topic!

    My Take: Ben knows all about Leia, it's hard to see how he couldn't, but does not consider her a viable alternate candidate should they lose Luke. A perfectly rational position considering the fact she is totally untrained and, in ESB, already in Imperial hands.

    Yoda also knows about Leia and knows she is strong in the Force, (remember he tells Luke to pass on what he's learned to the 'other Skywalker' in other words train Leia) but realistically how likely is she to escape if Luke falls? her future is to say the least clouded. So while Yoda *might* be refering to Leia when he makes his 'there is another' comment it is equally possible he is refering to some unknown 'Hope', maybe even a new Chosen One engendered by the Force to replace the one who fell? Now there's an interesting twist...

    Yoda is most definitely *not* refering to Anakin. He and Ben have both written off Anakin Skywalker believing him lost forever to the Dark Side. 'Devour you it will, (the Dark Side) as it did Obi-Wan's Apprentice', 'The good man who was your father was destroyed.', 'More machine now than man, twisted and evil.'
    Clearly Luke is intended to kill his father, otherwise why would Ben say 'Then the Emperor has already won.' when Luke tells him 'I can't kill my own father!'.
    Suggesting that Yoda has faith in Anakin while Ben does not is simply ridiculous. This is the gnome who wanted to throw the Chosen One back because he was too old and had too much fear. He never had any faith in Anakin to lose, that much is clear.

    The simple fact is Yoda and Ben were wrong. They thought Luke and Leia could step into Anakin's shoes and fulfil his mission of destroying the Sith. I believe their plan was for Luke to prove himself by destroying Darth Vader then train his sister so the two of them could face the Emperor together.
    Luke's actual mission though is to turn Darth Vader back into Anakin Skywalker so *he* can complete his destiny. Fortunately Luke senses this even if his teachers don't.



  24. DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Well, I clearly disagree with pretty much everything that's just been said, and have given reasons why elsewhere. PMT99, it looks like you have another apprentice....
  25. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Those reasons didn't mesh with what we saw in the movies because we have seen Yoda flat out reject Anakin because he knows that Anakin is too old, had much fear in him, and sensed that his training was in grave danger which is why he didn't want him trained.

    "If "there's no way of knowing what Luke would have done", how can you confidently assert that "Luke isn't gonna repeat the same mistakes as his father"? You can't have it both ways."

    You can if you can prove Yoda and Ben wrong about how it's impossible to turn someone back from the Dark Side.

    Also, If Yoda and Mace would have known who Darth Maul was and what he is capable of, they wouldn't have sent Qui-Gon and Obi-wan to draw him out knowing that Maul would have slaughtered the both of them.

    The same thing happened when Obi-wan and Yoda discovered that Anakin has gone to the Dark Side and has slaughtered all of the Jedi. If they didn't want him dead, why send Luke out to face him? They knew what Anakin/Vader is capable of so they wouldn't be that foolish enough to send Luke out to face him and the Emperor.

    "Just because you oppose someone doesn't mean you have to kill him."

    It does if you have no other choice since your opponents are relentlessly trying to kill you which is what the Sith are trying to do to the Jedi. Confront is close to the word "fight" just like confrontation and there are all kinds of confrontations in this world like:

    An argument(like the one we are having now).
    A sparring.
    A fight.
    A battle.

    and

    A war.

    What is going on between the Jedi and the Sith is a cross between a battle and a war and your opponent has always come close to killing you. Would you really want to spare your opponent's life knowing he will still try to kill you?

    I don't think so which is what Obi-wan and Yoda believes of what Vader and the Emperor are doing which is why they want Luke to take them out or there will be no future for the Jedi.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.