How come Ben didn't know that Leia was "the other" ?

DeVore420:
I agree that this is supporting evidence that Leia is not considered the
"other" hope - though I think the absence of Leia's involvement with the
Force, and the fact that the saga is about Anakin's rise, fall, and
redemption are both stronger evidence.

I would also agree totally with this, if I were to make the same
basic assumptions that you do. In my opinion, there is enough evidence in
the movies to make "Jedi vs Sith" the agenda of Yoda and ObiWan. The story
is still about Anakin - only the story now emphasizes Luke's accomplishment.
Having Yoda and ObiWan plan to redeem Anakin all along opens up for
inconsistencies, and I am not comfortable with the "need-to-know-basis" kind
of argument that has been presented to cover them up.

DarthSkeptical:
Well, again, the point is context. Ben says, "That boy was our last hope". Yoda says, "No, there is another." So we're talking here about Ben and Yoda's last hope. We have to assess what, then, were their ambitions. And I think if you believe that it's simply to defeat the Emperor, then really anyone could be that.

I don't think that's how they see it. Yoda says "Only a fully trained Jedi, with the force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor". So it's not a job for just anyone. He or she must be a jedi. I don't think they want them killed, as in being on a big thing that explodes, thus disitegrating their bodies. Yoda and Ben wants them vanquished, they want the Sith annihilated, crushed, humiliated. Just as the movie audience is not satisfied with the arch-villain suddenly dying from a heart-attack, Yoda and Ben would not be satisfied with V&E ending up simply without a pulse. They want some sort of catharsis. I am not certain though, that they specifically want and hope for Anakins redemption to be that catharsis. Yoda and Obi-Wan does not know about the DS2, in fact it is debatable whether they know anything at all about the political conflict.

I give this to you, I am very attracted to your views, in that it makes for a very good story. Only problem is, I find it hard to match that particular story with the inconsistensies I see that comes with it.

It makes more sense to think that they're talking about the restoration of balance to the Force, which includes not only the death of the Emperor (or at least his power), but the re-emplacement of the master-padawan paradigm.

Interesting. I am looking forward to learning more about what this balance actually means in the upcoming movies. I tend to think of it right now as the force wanting to be used from both sides, in harmony and balance. Yoda from TPM does not seem to be thrilled about the balance, therefore I (for now) assume Yoda in the OT is still not an advocate for balance.

 

DarthSkeptical:
I am afraid you must have misread my post. In my 3rd point, I was not referring to Luke sensing Leia but the other way around, when Luke was hanging in the weathervane.

The love triangle:
Yes, Luke didn't see what happened during ESB but that is no reason not to consider the problem solved. I believe that Leia knows where her feelings lie at the end of TESB, and she reinforces that belief in ROTJ: "Someone who loves you". Luke on the other hand, embarks on a spiritual journey that takes him away from his more earth-bound feelings. Like a priest, he has an aura of celibacy around him. That is how I meant the love-triangle was already solved. The sister thing didn't add anything that a few lines of dialogue at most could not add.

The rage-catalyst issue:
Here, I must admit that I really like your vision of symmetry between Anakin's fall and his subsequent redemption. Having family in both situations makes sense.

I do not honestly understand your 4th point.
Do you really think Leia has to be Luke's sister to explain that? How about her upbringing in a political home, and the Rebellion itself?

I am withdrawing this particular argument from this debate. First of all, it's quite a weak one to use to prove my point anyway, and second, I do not really want to bash this particular plot-twist. It is a good one, with all the implications from mythology (bigbird), symmetry in restoring the republic (DeVore) and symmetry in the saga (DarthSkeptical).

I will not pursue this further.

 

DeVore:
I forgot who made this comment earlier in this thread, but I've always thought of Luke and Leia as a "team" that saves the galaxy. Luke, on the spiritual, magical (Force), individual side, and Leia on the military, organizational, and campaign-wide side. Kinda like Luke as the Knight, going out and individually trying to change things, and Leia as the King or Queen, organizing the troops, being diplomatic, etc.

Yes, I agree with you here. Perhaps one additional point can be made:

If Luke is the new Jedi Order, and Leia is the new senate, there is a sense of balance in the fact that they are not only restored individually, but they are also connected "genetically" so to speak. Even better: they are connected through love. And not just any kind of love, but love as between siblings. Love that never dies, that never grows possessive, love that you can count on.
Siblings have a relationship that you can never break. "What happens to one, will affect the other".
Anakin restores the universe in a way by reforging politics (or the "real world") and spirituality. Two people, yet one and the same spirit. Quite the opposite to Darth Vader, who had two spirits in one person.
Luke and Leia is perhaps like melding the body and mind into one.

Ok, I hope you all enjoyed our little trip off-topic and that you made it back safely.

 

bigbird:

Thanks for the quotes from your book, I enjoyed them. Knowing what many of the situations in SW are based upon does not make me appreciate the works of Lucas less, it makes me like them more. Someone, I forgot who it was, said: "Good artists borrow, great artists steal."

I have been hitting myself over the head ever since I didn't get that book in the museum shop when I saw the exhibition in Minneapolis. Do you know if it's available in normal bookstores?

 

DarthSkeptical:
There's still another argument you can make which hasn't been touched yet. And you don't have to scour a dictionary to find it.

I can see it now:

INTERIOR, OFFICE

PMT99, Bjorn75 (simultaneously): This argument is our only hope.
DarthSkeptical (V.O) : No... There is another.

FADE OUT

 

Bjorn75:

In my opinion, there is enough evidence in the movies to make "Jedi vs Sith" the agenda of Yoda and ObiWan.

Do you mean in the OT alone, or in the OT + TPM? I don't see any evidence in the OT alone that the Jedi vs. Sith is even KNOWN, much less the agenda of Yoda and Obi-wan.

Even including TPM, I still don't see how we can get to that conclusion. In TPM we see that the Sith have arisen again, and the Jeid Council acknowledges this threat, but I didn't see any background information in that movie about a Jedi vs. Sith agenda. I agree that it's the logical next step of what we see in TPM, but I don't see it quite yet.

If there is evidence that suggests that this struggle is the real agenda of Yoda and Obi-wan, I actually think that this supports the idea of "other" hope being Anakin even more strongly. When Ben says, "That boy was our last hope" and Yoda replies that there is another," who is best positioned to win the Jedi vs. Sith struggle?

Luke, possibly - he's trained in the Force and has a passing understanding of the Jedi and the Sith.

Anakin, most definitely - he understands the struggle intimiately as he's caught up in it himself. And he's trained in the Force - his only hangup is that he's turned to the Dark Side.

Leia, no way - she has absolutely no knowledge, from what we see in the movies, of the Sith. She's aware of the Jedi Knights, but she's untrained in the ways of the Force. She is absolutely in no position to win this struggle, and if Luke dies (as would have to happen for her to be the "other" hope) there's nobody around to train her.

Hmmm... actually, now, I'm convinced that perhaps the Jedi vs. Sith struggle is a possible agenda of Yoda and Ben's - if we see more information in the PT about this (which I'm assuming we will.) I don't believe that agenda is indicated by the OT, though.

It may be impossible to determine if their agenda is "Jedi vs. Sith" or "redemption of Anakin and Obi-wan" or some combination of the two until we've seen the entire saga.

Siblings have a relationship that you can never break. "What happens to one, will affect the other".
Anakin restores the universe in a way by reforging politics (or the "real world") and spirituality. Two people, yet one and the same spirit. Quite the opposite to Darth Vader, who had two spirits in one person.
Luke and Leia is perhaps like melding the body and mind into one.

Very nice, I like that last part of what you said here. It's got a good symmetry.

 

Heeey, that book is available. Might be easier to find it at a local store (for overseas folk), but here's a link to it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553378104/qid%3D999706271/sr%3D1-2/ref%3Dsc%5Fb%5F2/104-1152963-4703954


If you don't own this book, it's totally worth the money for the HUGE pictures of the movie alone (nice shots not seen in the movie.)

 

DeVore420:
Do you mean in the OT alone, or in the OT + TPM? I don't see any evidence in the OT alone that the Jedi vs. Sith is even KNOWN, much less the agenda of Yoda and Obi-wan.

I agree with you here, I do not in the OT see any direct evidence of a universal struggle between two opposite groups of force-users as implied by "Jedi vs Sith". I saw the Sith as EU-material until they were brought on-board in TPM.

What I do see in the OT, are two old Jedi warriors who believe the dark side is a irreversible curse, a prison from which you cannot break free, something that consumes you, something that you lose someone to. They want to "conquer" Vader and Palpatine, the masters of the dark side. We all know how differently we see this part.

TPM added the concept of balance, destiny and prophecy, and the Jedi-Sith struggle. I admit, there is not much from the movie about the struggle, basically just that the Sith were extinct for some reason and they are now aching for revenge. There are also hints that the Jedi expected to know about them if they ever rose again (are they looking for them?). The novelization mentions the birth of the Sith and the war that followed. That suggests that "Jedi vs Sith" is a valid potential agenda for a Jedi, if put in that situation again. This puts a name on what I feel Yoda and ObiWan was aiming for in the OT. TPM also added what I interpret as a conflict between Anakin and Yoda, and tension among the Jedi ranks (whether the prophecy/balance is good or not).

It may be impossible to determine if their agenda is "Jedi vs. Sith" or "redemption of Anakin and Obi-wan" or some combination of the two until we've seen the entire saga.

Hear, hear!!
As I said earlier, I can personally see the beauty of your theory, but I cannot at this time ignore the things about it that I consider inconsistent.

 

PMT99, I am this close to having a confrontation with you, using your own, baseless definition. However, I am ruled by the Light Side of my own Force, namely the English dictionary. Though you seem unprepared to accept any linguistic argument, I shall try once more and quote, in its entirety, the definition of confront, as provided by the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: con·front
Pronunciation: k&n-'fr&nt
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle French confronter to border on, confront, from Medieval Latin confrontare to bound, from Latin com- + front-, frons forehead, front
Date: circa 1568
1 : to face especially in challenge : OPPOSE
2 a : to cause to meet : bring face-to-face <confront a reader with statistics> b : to meet face-to-face : ENCOUNTER <confronted the possibility of failure>

There is nothing in this defintion which implies death. Even the capitalized words OPPOSE and ENCOUNTER, which may be read as synonyms, and to which the m-w.com website links, are at best secondarily defined with any word which has an implication of death. You can oppose something with any level of force, the dictionary suggests, but that's not the same thing as saying that if you kill them you oppose them. Again, you're trying to use a type of a thing to define the the thing itself. Confront means only to encounter a person. A consequence of confrontng a person may be their death, at an extreme. But you want to believe that Yoda's instruction to "confront" Vader necessarily and inevitably meant for Luke to kill Vader. And that's just not true. Ben's echoing "You must face Vader" helps amplify the point.

You and I do agree that Yoda and Ben prepared Luke for the possibility of having to kill Anakin in self-defense. But nothing they say suggests, as you do, that they want him to do so.

I would bother to post the entry for confrontation, but it's not used in passages of the script we're debating. Once again, I point out the linguistic and logical error in using the noun form of a verb to define the verb.

Editing information. I should note, out of fairness, that I was in the process of editing this post while PMT99 was posting the one which immediately follows. I didn't, however, change my post in response to anything he said, because his post came while I was editing. I hope this edit didn't affect anything he wanted to say.

 

"The most obvious problem with your conclusion is that Ben never mentions the Sith-it's therefore silly to introduce that term in what you suppose he "meant"."

I don't think so because Ben did mention Vader and Vader is, of course, a Sith lord so there is no problem with my conclusion that the Jedi were in their glory and the Sith came along and dashed it all away when they slaughtered the Jedi.

"How do I know that Anakin is the other hope referred to by Yoda? simple, I wrote a note on my ticket stub to TPM that says, "Anakin is the other!" This conclusively proves that Anakin is the "other" referred to.

I couldn't resist. "

Very Funny.

"I suggest you read bigbird's post above about what's really driving the story of the OT, and then come back when you've got some new ideas."

And you should check out Bjorn's last post where she points out how the TPM novelizations mention the birth of the Sith and the war that followed. It suggest that the Jedi-Sith struggle was the potential agenda for Yoda and Ben wanting Vader and the Emperor destroyed.

Another suggestion for why Yoda never considered Anakin as the other hope is because in TPM, we see Yoda disrespecting Anakin when he was asking him stupid questions about how he felt and if Anakin was afraid. Yoda never wanted Anakin trained at all despite that Qui-Gon believes that he's the chosen one and how he can bring balance to the force.

Even so, Yoda still flat out rejected Anakin because he felt that Ani was too old, had much fear in him, "clouded this boy's future is", and that his training was in grave danger. He never wanted to take the risk but the other council members and Obi-wan forced it upon him.

When Anakin turned to the Dark Side and became Vader, Yoda is now convinced that Anakin is lost forever to the Dark Side because as Bjorn pointed out, Yoda believes that the Dark Side is an irreversible curse, a prison in which you can never break free, something that consumes you and that you've lost someone to.

He's has suggested that throughout the movies when he was training Luke and in his deathbed which is why he and Ben want Vader and the Emperor eliminated and why he considered Leia as the other hope due to her being his sister and that he would have trained her once he finished with Luke but he was about to die soon so he passed his knowledge to Luke so he can assure himself that Leia will be trained as a Jedi.

DarthSkeptical-

I'm not saying that confrontation means death anymore but I am saying that it means to fight and I see you've already gotten the point since you've decided to threaten me.

 

Ugh, please. I was making a joke based on your wacky definition. I haven't at all "gotten your point."

And again, "confrontation" isn't the word we're defining here.

 

Oh, wait a minute. You're retracting your earlier position that Yoda and Ben wanted to kill Vader then?

 

Another suggestion for why Yoda never considered Anakin as the other hope is because in TPM, we see Yoda disrespecting Anakin when he was asking him stupid questions about how he felt and if Anakin was afraid.

Yeah, right. A 900 year old, ultra-wise Jedi Master is being "disrespectful" when he asks a child if he is afraid.

Or perhaps to you, "disrespectful" means "nice." It's probably just under the entry in whatever dictionary you're reading that says "confront" means "fight."

And I take issue with your characterization of that question as "stupid." If this is indeed what you think, that asking Anakin if he is afraid is a stupid thing to do, then you've missed the ENTIRE point of what causes one to fall to the Dark Side.

Yoda believes that the Dark Side is an irreversible curse, a prison in which you can never break free, something that consumes you and that you've lost someone to.

Even though in the movies, we see the exact OPPOSITE of what you just said. You're wrong - Yoda does NOT believe this. If he believed this, then he'd HAVE to be telling Luke, "go kill Vader" and we've already demonstrated, exhaustively, that Yoda is not saying this - in fact, he's saying the opposite. He's saying "do NOT use your weapons, do NOT attack, lest you become as your father."

I'm not saying that confrontation means death anymore but I am saying that it means to fight...

You can say it as many times as you like, but it's still wrong. And as bigbird pointed out a few posts ago, it's very difficult to understand your points when you're using words incorrectly.

 

DarthSkeptical-

No, I'm still going by the idea that Yoda and Ben wanted Vader destroyed.

I'm just conceding the idea that confront means death but to fight.

Devore-

"Yeah right. A 900 year old, ultra-wise Jedi master is being disrespectful when he asks a child if he is afraid.

If this is indeed what you think, that asking Anakin if he is afraid is a stupid thing to do, then you've missed the ENTIRE point of what causes one to fall to the Dark Side."

I know exactly what causes someone to go to the Dark Side just fine, thank you very much.

OK so that wasn't disrespectful but telling him he cannot be trained is and it's all because of the fear he had in him. Anakin thought that all of the Jedi were like Qui-Gon but now he sees that they aren't and he was hurt when they said that.

Qui-Gon was the only one who believed in him and now that he's dead, Anakin is all alone and is starting his path to the Dark Side, even when he has Obi-wan as his master.

"Your wrong-Yoda does NOT believe this."

How do you know? This was never indicated in any of the movies that Yoda believes otherwise and what you are saying isn't ver consistent.

"If he believed this, then he'd have to be telling Luke, "Go kill Vader". and we've already demonstrated, exhaustively, that Yoda is saying the opposite. He's saying, "do NOT use your weapons, do NOT attack, lest you become like your father."

He is saying that a Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack but he never said anything about killing not being the answer in any of the movies and again, it's impossible for you to prove something that was never shown in the movies.

"You can say it as many times as you like, but it's still wrong."

You don't even understand the meaning of the word. If someone like a robber confronts you, that means they are about to attack you but you wouldn't understand that until it's too late.

 

As an aside, it's important to point out that synonym does not mean two words that mean exactly the same thing. It means "one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses." Therefore, confront has a much stronger meaning of "encounter" or "face" than does oppose--which is the only word in the definition of confront that carries even the hint of death about it. You can oppose someone without ever encountering them. Luke was opposed to Vader on Tatooine, for example, but he hadn't confronted him. Likewise, when he confronted Vader, he wasn't really opposed to Anakin.

 

Oh, I agree he wanted Vader destroyed. I don't think he wanted Anakin killed, though. And I agree, too, that they were preparing Luke for a fight.

 

And you should check out Bjorn's last post where she points out how the TPM novelizations mention the birth of the Sith and the war that followed. It suggest that the Jedi-Sith struggle was the potential agenda for Yoda and Ben wanting Vader and the Emperor destroyed.

A novelazation usually involves including more stuff than what is actually in the movies. I've never read these books, and since it sounds like they are describing events WAY before the trilogy (birth of the Sith), I don't consider them relevant to the discussion.

Another suggestion for why Yoda never considered Anakin as the other hope is...
Even so, Yoda still flat out rejected Anakin because he felt that Ani was too old, had much fear in him, "clouded this boy's future is", and that his training was in grave danger. He never wanted to take the risk but the other council members and Obi-wan forced it upon him.

So Ben 'forced' Yoda to train Luke? Anakin was MUCH younger than Luke was, and (from what we see in TPM) not nearly as much of a whiner. Every problem that Yoda had with Anakin he also had with Luke--so if Yoda 'flat out' rejected Anakin and knew, from the first time he saw him, that he could not become a Jedi (which he does, according to Ben), then why the hell is Yoda trying to train Luke? And WHY does Yoda raise Luke's ship from the swamp, which ends up allowing him to leave? If ANYTHING, Yoda should have known (after seeing what happened to Anakin) that Luke was going to be seduced by Vader when he left Bespin.

Vader (according to Ben) became a Jedi, and then turned. Luke has hardly had any training at all--it's almost certain that he'll be seduced by the darkside.

So you say that Yoda never, from the moment he saw Vader until he (yoda) died had any faith in Vader. Why, then, is he putting stock in Luke? And don't give me this "Oh, it's because he's the best hope left." Bullcrap--he KNOWS about Leia. If she's an 'another hope' he would have sent Luke out to fetch her and bring her back so Yoda could train her instead.

Yoda KNOWS that the other hope is Vader, but for obvious reasons Yoda can't just say "Yo, Vader, why not come back to our side?"

I contend that Yoda didn't have much outward faith in either of them--that is, his lines in the movie seem to indicate that he doesn't have faith in them (notice that all of these lines are in front of other people.) I contend that he does have faith in Vader and Luke, and he only shows it by his actions, and things that he says when no one else is around ("No, there is another.")

Think about that--it's vitally important.

Confront:
I'm getting a little tired of this, but

YODA
No more training do you require. Already know
you that which you need.

Yoda sighs, and lies back on his bed.

LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?

YODA (shakes his head)
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You
must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi
will you be. And confront him you will.


Luke has been TRAINED (the skills) to be a Jedi. But he is not a Jedi yet--he must confront Vader, the dark side of himself. Then, only then, will he be a true Jedi. That is the vital task ahead of him--to come to terms with the evil within himself, which he will do by facing Anakin Skywalker.

Yoda doesn't say "In order to become a Jedi you must slay Darth Vader." Wouldn't that be a little silly? If that's how people become Jedi, then it's _really_ a little hard to do that when there are not Sith to slay, aren't there? His language is not even talking about Darth Vader--he's speaking figuratively.

Otherwise the passage would sound kinda silly, wouldn't it?

YODA (shakes his head)
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You
must kill Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi
will you be. And kill him you will.

He doesn't kill Darth Vader, so I guess he never really becomes a Jedi, neh?

 

Yoda doesn't say "In order to become a Jedi you must slay Darth Vader." Wouldn't that be a little silly? If that's how people become Jedi, then it's _really_ a little hard to do that when there are not Sith to slay, aren't there? His language is not even talking about Darth Vader--he's speaking figuratively.

Excellent point, BigBird

 

Quoting Björn, Yes, Luke didn't see what happened during ESB but that is no reason not to consider the problem solved. I believe that Leia knows where her feelings lie at the end of TESB, and she reinforces that belief in ROTJ: "Someone who loves you". Luke on the other hand, embarks on a spiritual journey that takes him away from his more earth-bound feelings. Like a priest, he has an aura of celibacy around him. That is how I meant the love-triangle was already solved. The sister thing didn't add anything that a few lines of dialogue at most could not add.

Well, this is a fine kettle of fish, you've gotten us into, ain't it? We're well and truly off topic now. But far better and more interesting than the Webster Wars I fully admit expanding.

Leia may know her feelings, but she doesn't know Han's future, and therefore doesn't know hers. She's got to wonder whether she can really hope to see Han alive again. Sure, he might've survived the freezing process itself, but the secondary point of the freezing (beyond testing the equipment for Luke's eventual freezing), was to allow a bounty to be redeemed. Han's life is in jeopardy beyond the carbonite, because Jabba might simply kill him once delivered to Tatooine. Sure she's gonna try like hell to save the guy, but if she's unsuccessful who's the most likely person she'll fall in love with next? Luke, of course. I contend that the line "I happen to like nice men" is obliquely referring to Luke. Luke is a viable love interest for her. Luke's clearly interested, and Han's clearly threatened by Luke. So making him her sibling is the only complete closure of that possibility, outside of death. Even Han and Leia getting married doesn't completely settle things.

I agree that the new sense of purpose Luke has does seem to superficially preclude romance. But I don't think Lucas is positing a celibate Jedi order. He's made the Force too much of a genetic thing for that. Clearly, romance is in the cards for Anakin, and (speculation) may even be for Obi-Wan. We'll just have to wait and see SW2 for more clues. And then you get into this whole EU matter of Mara Jade.

I personally don't think that the Jedi would logically be celibate, so, while I agree he may not have had much time for romance during his training--what serious student really can devote time to both his studies and romance, and have both pursued equally well?--I think that once he completed his training, he was more available to love.

 

Björn quotes me here

Well, again, the point is context. Ben says, "That boy was our last hope". Yoda says, "No, there is another." So we're talking here about Ben and Yoda's last hope. We have to assess what, then, were their ambitions. And I think if you believe that it's simply to defeat the Emperor, then really anyone could be that.

then says

I don't think that's how they see it. Yoda says "Only a fully trained Jedi, with the force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor". So it's not a job for just anyone.

Ironic . In a quote about the importance of context, you quote me out of context. The rest of my original post essentially makes the points that you do, except that you conclude by saying, "I am not certain though, that they specifically want and hope for Anakins redemption to be that catharsis. Yoda and Obi-Wan does not know about the DS2, in fact it is debatable whether they know anything at all about the political conflict.

You give no evidence for that conclusion, nor offer an alternative catharsis. So it's just an assertion at this point. Not a wrong one, necessarily, just an unsubstantiated one. Perhaps you could flesh out the differences between what you're saying and what I said, because so far, it looks like you've just truncated my statements in order to put them into your own words. The only difference I see is this little twist at the end about what the nature of your catharsis is.

You make it seem like we're disagreeing but actually I think we're saying much the same thing.

 

PMT99:
Anakin thought that all of the Jedi were like Qui-Gon but now he sees that they aren't and he was hurt when they said that.
Qui-Gon was the only one who believed in him and now that he's dead, Anakin is all alone and is starting his path to the Dark Side, even when he has Obi-wan as his master.

Great point there, I think you're on to something.

And you should check out Bjorn's last post where she points out how the TPM novelizations mention the birth of the Sith and the war that followed.

To whom it may concern - I'm a guy.

 

First Jade Angel, now you too?

You all gotta PM me some pictures of yourselves so I don't confuse myself of which is which.

Alright, back to business.

"Since it sounds like they are describing events WAY before the trilogy (birth of the Sith), I don't consider them relevant to the discussion."

So you're saying you don't consider what transpired in TPM relevant to the OT when we hear Darth Maul talk about how he and Sidious were gonna "have revenge" on the Jedi, how Ki-Adi suggested that the Sith were extinct for a millennium when Qui-Gon mentioned that he was attacked by someone he believed was a Sith lord, and how Yoda and Mace were discussing about which Sith was destroyed by Obi-wan?

I don't think so because what we know so far in TPM suggest that Yoda and Obi-wan did have a Jedi-Sith struggle as their potential agenda to eliminate Vader and the Emperor.

"If Yoda "flat out" rejected" Anakin and knew, from the first time he saw him, that he could not become a Jedi (which he does, according to Ben) then why the hell is Yoda trying to train Luke?"

Because he doesn't have any other choice. He knows that with all the Jedi including Obi-wan dead and that he's about to die of natural causes, there will be noone to challenge Vader and the Emperor, the Jedi will no longer have a future seeing as they are completely extinct, and the universe will continue to suffer under the tyranny, oppression, persecution, and the dictatorship the Sith have brought upon them which is why he had to train Luke in hopes that he will eliminate the Sith which by then the universe wil be free again and that the Jedi will be reborn.

Besides, Ben reminded Yoda about how he was a lot like Luke when he was his age which convinced Yoda to train Luke.

"And why does Yoda raise Luke's ship from the swamp, which ends up allowing him to leave? If ANYTHING, Yoda should have known (after what happened to Anakin) that Luke was going to be seduced by Vader when he left for Bespin."

Not likely because Yoda already knew that Luke hadn't turn yet when Luke came back in ROTJ and as for why Yoda raised Luke's ship? It was to teach Luke a lesson about having faith and that he must believe in himself and the Force.

As indicated right after when the ship was brought out from the swamp:

Luke: I...I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.

"Why, then, is he putting stock in Luke? And don't give me this "Oh, he's the best hope left". Bullcrap-he KNOWS about Leia. If she's the "another hope" he would have sent Luke out to fetch her and bring her back so Yoda could train her instead."

But he said it himself, "An apprentice he already has, impossible to take on a second."
Yoda was still following the code of the old order which is "Only train 1 apprentice and only 1" so he couldn't train two apprentices at once knowing that they will not like having to share the same master and will fight amongst each other which by then causes them to fall to the Dark Side.

It is already evidenced in TPM when Obi-wan didn't like having Qui-Gon taking on another apprentice like Anakin which is why Yoda could only train one of the twins and once that training is complete, he'll train the other.

He never realised that Leia was in any real danger (and indeed she wasn't) which is why he "couldn't see her fate.

"Yoda KNOWS that the other hope is Vader."

Now this is bullcrap. If Yoda did have hopes about Anakin/Vader being the other hope, he would never have talked so much trash about him to Luke or to Obi-wan.

"Yoda doesn't say, "In order to become a Jedi you must slay Darth Vader". Wouldn't that be a little silly? If that's how people become Jedi, then it's_really_a little hard to do that when they are no Sith to slay, aren't there?"

Actually there are some Sith left, only they were hiding throughout the entire millennium and the Jedi doesn't know this since they assumed that the Sith are extinct but in reality, that isn't true.

Yoda also never said, "In order to become a Jedi, you must stand idly while either Vader or the Em

 

Ok, perhaps I'm too late to answer this part of the topic:

Bjorn75
Even though Leia was "another" hope, Luke was their "immediate" (and safe) hope. Yoda and Ben were clearly distressed by Luke's departure, and feared that they would lose him. There's a Swedish saying that goes "Better one bird in your hand than 10 in the woods". From Yoda's point of view, Leia IS expendable because she is an untrained, unsafe bet, whereas Luke is a half-trained, safe one. His cost/benefit analysis makes him want Luke to stay instead of helping his friends.

You make a good point, but Yoda also stated that Luke was reckless and was much like his father. He wouldn't train someone that he knew could end up just like Darth Vader. So no, Luke was not safe in Yoda's POV, he only trained Luke because the boy was right there and had the potential to become even worse if Vader had caught him.


Yoda obviously sees the possibility of Luke rescuing Leia, but ends up lost himself. One way or another. When Yoda says "There is another", he could be referring to the exchange of losing Luke/gaining Leia.

If Yoda's uncertain about Leia's fate and knows that they could possibly die he wouldn't really be stating about other hopes when he knows they could die. They can't gain another when the other is dead.


Another thing I have been thinking about: If Leia is not the other hope - why is Leia Luke's sister in the first place? It significantly diminishes Leia's role in the overlying story-arc. Granted - she did not take as big a part in it as her brother, but at least she had that connection to Anakin. She could have taken his place, if Luke had failed somehow.

If Leia was the other hope then she would have had a bigger part in Vader's redemption or something. But all we get is Princess Leia in a slave bikini and diplomat to the Ewoks. She was made the sister because like you pointed out here:

If she is not the other hope - her being the sister is only a plot device needed for 2 things.
1. Solving the love triangle between Luke-Leia-Han. (Quite needless, since it was fairly solved anyway)
2. A way to make Luke enraged at Vader. (I am sure this could have been done in many other ways.)
3. Explaining how Leia could sense that Luke needed help on Bespin.
My point is that if this is all the sibling-hood is about, I say it is dangerously close to "deus ex machina"

Since you've already made those points I realy don't see the need to elaborate them.

 

Leia did play a part in Vader's redemption.

She was a catalyst that started it all when Vader threaten to turn her to the Dark Side and Luke, getting pissed off over this remark, lashed out all his fury at Vader and defeated him.

She also drove him to become Anakin Skywalker again when he witness his own son getting fried by the Emperor and he thought in his head, "If I don't do something now to save my son, he will die and the Emperor will soon find my daughter and kill her too. I must not let that happen" so in an instant, Vader redeemed himself when he became Anakin again and saved Luke by throwing the Emperor down the reactor.

It's just like what Lucas said in the Episode 2 documentary, "In Episodes 4, 5, & 6, we see Anakin's offspring redeem him and help him bring balance to the Force" so while Leia didn't physically get involved to redeem Vader, the very mention of her is what drove him to become Anakin Skywalker again.

 

So you're saying you don't consider what transpired in TPM relevant to the OT when we

I said nothing of the sort. You're talking about some books which are talking about the 'birth of the Sith' which, for all we know, could have happened millions of years ago. Whatever details are contained in these books, Lucas did not put them in the movies, so I don't consider them quotable.

I don't think so because what we know so far in TPM suggest that Yoda and Obi-wan did have a Jedi-Sith struggle as their potential agenda to eliminate Vader and the Emperor.


I can't buy into this because the Jedi do not seek 'revenge', so having a 'struggle' between them which lasts thousands of years sounds a little silly.

I think the more simplistic explanation is that Yoda and Ben want the Sith out of power because they are helping the Empire terrorize the galaxy.

Because he doesn't have any other choice.

No, he does have another choice if what you say is true--Leia. Leia, when you look at her, is MUCH more qualified to be a Jedi. She's quick-witted, collected, knows a lot about the universe, and is a pivotal character in a huge rebellion against the empire.

Luke is a reckless, impatient farmer that like shooting wamp rats.

I see no reason why Yoda would even want to begin to train Luke. He's obviously not Jedi material, and is quite old.

He knows that with all the Jedi including Obi-wan dead and that he's about to die of natural causes
Right--all the more reason to get Leia to Dagobah so she can be trained.

Besides, Ben reminded Yoda about how he was a lot like Luke when he was his age which convinced Yoda to train Luke.

Right--that's what I was saying. Luke is obviously inferior Jedi material than even Anakin was, so why would Yoda even attempt to train him if he saw what happened with the first Skywalker boy?

Unless yoda secretly knew that Anakin didn't turn out that bad (there was still good in him), so Yoda was counting on the underlying good in Luke also prevailing

Not likely because Yoda already knew that Luke hadn't turn yet when Luke came back in ROTJ

Whoaa...you wanna try that again? You must've mistyped something, because it sounds like you were saying that Yoda knew that Luke hadn't been turned by Vader at the end of ESB, and that was influencing his decisions on Dagobah in the middle of ESB.

and as for why Yoda raised Luke's ship? It was to teach Luke a lesson about having faith and that he must believe in himself and the Force.

As indicated right after when the ship was brought out from the swamp:

Luke: I...I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.


Exactly. Luke displays in this scene, the tree cave scene, and by leaving ("If you leave now, help them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered"), he shows that he doesn't have what it takes to be a Jedi. Three failures in a short period of time. If Leia is the 'another hope', I would imagine she would have done much better than Luke.

Luke out to fetch her and bring her back so Yoda could train her instead."

But he said it himself, "An apprentice he already has, impossible to take on a second."


Uh, did I say train both of them? I said instead.

Yoda was still following the code of the old order which is "Only train 1 apprentice and only 1" so he couldn't train two apprentices at once knowing that they will not like having to share the same master and will fight amongst each other which by then causes them to fall to the Dark Side.

It is already evidenced in TPM when Obi-wan didn't like having Qui-Gon taking on another apprentice like Anakin which is why Yoda could only train one of the twins and once that training is complete, he'll train the other.


Well, that's kinda pitting evidence against yourself. Yes, it was not 'normal' to have more than one apprentice, and before TPM we didn't even know this was allowed. But extreme circumstances (I think Y