How come Ben didn't know that Leia was "the other" ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by ryanof1, Aug 14, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Leia did play a part in Vader's redemption.

    She was a catalyst that started it all when Vader threaten to turn her to the Dark Side and Luke, getting pissed off over this remark, lashed out all his fury at Vader and defeated him.

    She also drove him to become Anakin Skywalker again when he witness his own son getting fried by the Emperor and he thought in his head, "If I don't do something now to save my son, he will die and the Emperor will soon find my daughter and kill her too. I must not let that happen" so in an instant, Vader redeemed himself when he became Anakin again and saved Luke by throwing the Emperor down the reactor.


    Ahhh, PMT99, the "other argument". This is an excellent, excellent point. And as far as I can see, the only logical way in which Leia can be considered "the other". The oblique reference. It's not that she's the other in a direct sense, but that the thought of her ultimately saves both her brother and her father.

    Still, there are problems with this argument.

    First, it turns "another" into "two others". Clearly, it's Anakin who does the actual work of saving the galaxy. It's Anakin who finally becomes a Jedi Knight, fulfills his destiny, and restores balance to the Force. Leia may be the passive redeemer of the Skywalker family, but it's Anakin who is the active savior of the galaxy here. This isn't too much of a problem, though, because another is not defined as "only one other".

    Second, I believe that the goal of Yoda wasn't just the defeat of the Emperor but the rebirth of the Jedi. Though SW6 hints at the training of Leia, and the EU surely expands upon that possibility, I'm personally not left at the end of SW6 believing that she's going to be a Jedi Knight. I find it much more likely that she'll receive some Force training, but essentially stay where her talents so obviously lie: the political arena. It's speculation, of course, but, then, so is the EU, IMHO.

    Third, I still don't get how she could've been "the other" if Yoda thought her expendable enough to let her die on Bespin. You've made the point, before, that Yoda couldn't see her future and therefore didn't know she was going to die. But if he didn't know she was going to die, he obviously didn't know she wasn't, either. So it was an eventuality he considered, and deemed less important than Luke's training. It's extremely unusual strategy to allow your backup to die. It seems especially odd to me that she could be "the other", even in this passive sense we're discussing, if Yoda's uncertain whether Leia will survive to be that potent catalyst later on.

    Having said all that, though, it's still a strong argument that Leia's "otherness" wasn't about direct confrontation or her Force aptitude. Rather, it was about her role as touchstone, and how that would help Luke overcome the Emperor and eventually become the progenitor of a new Jedi class.

    I must say, though, that while I can see this argument, it's too indirect for my tastes. Nor is it literarily satisfying, since the films ultimately have to do with Anakin, and Obi-Wan's role in training Anakin.
  2. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    I do not honestly understand your 4th point.
    Do you really think Leia has to be Luke's sister to explain that? How about her upbringing in a political home, and the Rebellion itself?


    Here, Björn is speaking of my assertion that Leia's Force-aptitude (by virtue of being a Skywalker) helped her be a better politician. As we learned in TPM, even untrained, Anakin had the power to see things before they happened. Leia, too, displays some of these tendencies to use the Force even though untrained. Clearly, the ability to see things before they happen, or at least sense likelihoods, is a valuable political skill.

    I'm not saying she was probing rival politicians' minds to see how their "thoughts might betray them". I'm just saying that any political debate where there's a question about how a policy might affect future outcomes (and that's just about all of them) would obviously be controlled by someone who'd demonstrated even limited ability to prognosticate accurately. All it would take would be a few instances in which she argued for unpopular idea, only later to be proven right, and she'd be a media star. Yes, her political family helps to some degree, but it's infrequent (George W. Bush excepted, of course) that simple lineage paves the way for political stardom in a democracy. In democracies, you tend to get a bounce out of your relatives, simply because people recognize the name, but you don't get to keep your job and advance unless you're actually talented on your own (again, George W. Bush excepted).
  3. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Björn said almost a page above:

    Siblings have a relationship that you can never break. "What happens to one, will affect the other".
    Anakin restores the universe in a way by reforging politics (or the "real world") and spirituality. Two people, yet one and the same spirit. Quite the opposite to Darth Vader, who had two spirits in one person.
    Luke and Leia is perhaps like melding the body and mind into one.


    DeVore has already noted his appreciation of this notion and I'd like to add my own. This is a dead-on, practically poetic, interpretation of the Luke-Leia symbiosis. Though I'm not sure Björn mean it so, I think it also speaks to why it's more than enough for them just to be siblings. Leia doesn't need to be "another [hope]" to make a great literary point. There's so much that can be gleaned from her only being "another Skywalker".
  4. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    DarthSkeptical-

    That is true but while Luke left to save his friends, Yoda must have already known that not only did Luke not turn to the Dark Side by Vader, he'd also knew that Luke would eventually save Leia, thus he can proceed with his plan to train both twins.

    The problem is by the time Luke came back so he can complete his training, Yoda is already about to die so before his time came, he opted to pass his knowledge to Luke to ensure himself that Leia will be trained in the ways of the Force.

    Bigbird-

    "You're talking about some books which are talking about the "birth of the Sith" which, for all we know, could have happened millions of years ago. Whatever details are contained in these books, Lucas did not put them in the movies, so I don't consider them quotable."

    I was only talking about the TPM novelizations and Lucas might put all the information about the Sith in either the upcoming movie AOTC or in Episode 3.

    "I can't buy into this because the Jedi do not seek "revenge", so having a struggle between them which lasts thousands of years sounds a little silly."

    Your right about the Jedi not seeking revenge because Lucas said the same thing when he changed the title from "Revenge of the Jedi" to "Return of the Jedi" but the struggle I'm talking about is the kind that determines who will control the fate of the galaxy.

    The Jedi want to do away with the Sith because they consider them a threat to the galaxy since the Sith want to bring anarchy and chaos to the universe which is why it is the Jedi's duty as defenders of the galaxy to not let any of this happen to anyone by battling the Sith.

    The Sith want to do away with the Jedi because their last encounter with them almost destroyed them completely due to their in-fighting and deceit amongst each other which forced them to become a duo for the next 1000 years.

    When they returned, they took control of the Republic in secrecy, created an elite force known as the Empire, had the "chosen one" Anakin Skywalker as one of them, and took control of the entire universe. Once they had enough power, they managed to destroy all but 1 Jedi.

    So instead of the Jedi looking for revenge, they are opting to protect their future and by eliminating the Sith, they will have saved the galaxy and ensured themselves that they will be reborn starting with Luke.

    "I see no reason why Yoda would even want to train Luke."

    He wanted to redeem himself because he felt he made too many mistakes with the other Skywalker, Anakin and he didn't want to make the same mistake with Luke which is why he trained him.

    "Why would Yoda even attempt to train him if he saw what happened with the first Skywalker boy?"

    Again, he wanted to redeem himself since he felt he made too many mistakes with Anakin and plus, he already knew that Luke hasn't followed the same path his father went just yet. While Anakin was afraid, Luke wasn't since he was a lot older than his father was when he met Yoda which is why he was ready to face his destiny.

    Luke didn't have anything to lose since the parents he knew (his aunt and uncle) were killed and he was a lot older when it happened so he wasn't as susecptible to the Dark Side unlike Anakin who had 1 thing to lose out of his becoming a Jedi....his mother.

    In the end, Luke succeeded and Anakin failed.

    "Whoaa....you wanna try that again? You must've mistyped something, because it sounds like you were saying that Yoda knew that Luke hadn't been turned by Vader at the end of ESB, and that was influencing his decisions on Dagobah in the middle of ESB."

    Well.....something like that.

    "Uh, did I say train both of them? I said instead."

    Ok. I didn't know what you were talking about.

    "I see no reason why he couldn't train the both of them."

    It's simple, he didn't want either Vader or the Emperor to know that Anakin has more than 1 child or else they'd gone after the both of them and use her either as bait to make Luke turn to the Dark Side or have her be trained as a Sith so that she will get rid of both Vader and Luke
  5. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    PMT99 said: Yoda believes that the Dark Side is an irreversible curse, a prison in which you can never break free, something that consumes you and that you've lost someone to.

    To that, DeVore420 responded: Even though in the movies, we see the exact OPPOSITE of what you just said. You're wrong - Yoda does NOT believe this. If he believed this, then he'd HAVE to be telling Luke, "go kill Vader" and we've already demonstrated, exhaustively, that Yoda is not saying this - in fact, he's saying the opposite. He's saying "do NOT use your weapons, do NOT attack, lest you become as your father."

    Allow me to retort:
    Funny, I thought we saw exactly just what PMT99 stated. Everything Yoda says indicates it. What you have exhaustively demonstrated is that willingness to interpret Yoda's words the other way around can make it sound as if he believes otherwise. Nothing else.

    Yoda does not have to be bloodthirsty in order not to believe in Anakin anymore. I know that I have in my posts sometimes made him look that way, but it was mostly for effect. He throws Luke into the heart of darkness, like a spear, in order to rid the universe of the evils of the "sith". If Vader and the Emperor are killed, so be it. Anakin became a casualty a long time ago, V & E would be the last two.
    My point is, they don't send Luke there to redeem Anakin in the process, that is Luke's own idea.
    I agree, Yoda does say: "Do not use your weapons, use the force for knowledge and defence etc."
    Yoda's anti-aggression message is not in opposition to the part of PMT99's statement you quoted. (Which was originally from a post of my own, making me take the liberty to argue on PMT99's behalf in the first place)

    On a side note - I am pretty confused about how everyone sees the relationship between ObiWan and Yoda. Is there a consensus on the "Anakin-is-the-hope" side that Yoda and Ben have the same agenda, and the same opinions?
    I for one think that they do, but ObiWan does not know everything Yoda knows. That is how I would answer the specific question in the topic. Either that, or a simple mind-slip. :)
  6. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    bigbird objects to an argument supporting the notion of a Jedi-Sith struggle:
    A novelazation usually involves including more stuff than what is actually in the movies. I've never read these books, and since it sounds like they are describing events WAY before the trilogy (birth of the Sith), I don't consider them relevant to the discussion.

    If you had gone back and read my whole point, you no doubt would have noticed that the novelization was merely supporting evidence, icing of the cake. While I personally regard novelizations as admissable evidence when not conflicting with the movies, I respect your opposite opinion. But I think it is of more in the interests of the discussion to address the actual arguments, rather than to single out a supporting piece of evidence.

    bigbird later addresses the issue:
    I can't buy into this because the Jedi do not seek 'revenge', so having a 'struggle' between them which lasts thousands of years sounds a little silly.
    I think the more simplistic explanation is that Yoda and Ben want the Sith out of power because they are helping the Empire terrorize the galaxy.


    I honestly think it is a bit silly too, but the Sith were brought on-board in TPM. I then began to see the Jedi and the Sith as two religious factions, each opposing the other. speculation: neither one being completely sound.

    You make a good point about them perhaps wanting the sith simply out of power.
    If there is no battle of ideology between them, the Jedi-Sith struggle would be no different than the political struggle for power.
    If you believe, like I do, that Yoda and ObiWan are motivated by fighting the Sith and not redeeming Anakin - there has to be a spiritual dimension to the conflict, or the Rebellion could have solved everything themselves. Those who believe otherwise do not face this particular problem.

    bigbird again:
    why the hell is Yoda trying to train Luke?[...]Vader (according to Ben) became a Jedi, and then turned. Luke has hardly had any training at all--it's almost certain that he'll be seduced by the darkside.[...]Unless yoda secretly knew that Anakin didn't turn out that bad (there was still good in him), so Yoda was counting on the underlying good in Luke also prevailing.

    These quotes in no way do your reasoning justice, I would repost your entire post if it wouldn't have been impractical. You made some very good points, I think, even though I do not agree with your dismissal of Luke.
    Luke IS not Anakin, other than by his genetic heritage. Anakin did not raise Luke, we cannot take for granted that they react the same, or become the same.
    Anakin can hardly be said to "not have turned out that bad", and I believe that the inner goodness of Luke already prevailed at Bespin. Yes, I see clear streaks of the dark side in him in ROTJ, but he has not turned. Vader tried to seduce him, but Luke stayed strong.

    Luke has been TRAINED (the skills) to be a Jedi. But he is not a Jedi yet--he must confront Vader, the dark side of himself. Then, only then, will he be a true Jedi. That is the vital task ahead of him--to come to terms with the evil within himself, which he will do by facing Anakin Skywalker.

    I honestly wonder what exactly made Obi-Wan a Jedi in TPM. The movie says nothing explicit, the novelization speaks of his courage, skills and strength of will, as well as striking down a Sith in battle. Perhaps this will be significant in the future movies?

  7. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    Well, this is a fine kettle of fish, you've gotten us into, ain't it?

    That's right, and I am darned proud of it too. :)

    DarthSkeptical refers to my bringing in the Sister-hood plot, and specifically the love story, into the discussion. I admit the accusation of "deus ex machina" was a mistake, since there truly are things to gain from Leia being Luke's sister, regardless of whether she was Yoda's other hope or not.

    However -
    So making him her sibling is the only complete closure of that possibility, outside of death.

    How complete do you have to get? We are only talking about closure as far as the movie goes right? If Han and Leia were married, that would be enough for me (provided that Luke wouldn't be standing behind a curtain like some Stefano DiMera, looking grim). There would have to be some "blessing" scene, where Luke expresses that he does not desire Leia anymore. If actual words would be too mushy, celibacy would do perfectly.

    But I don't think Lucas is positing a celibate Jedi order. He's made the Force too much of a genetic thing for that.

    Perhaps, but we don't know that, especially not back in 1982 where we currently are since we are talking plot design for ROTJ. We are talking about SW as it could have been, right?

    And yes, romance is in the cards for Anakin, but he is hardly the standard Jedi, now is he? Come to think of it, it actually makes a lot of sense if the Jedi are supposed to be celibate. Another reason for Anakin to turn away from the Jedi, because he wants Padme. Another reason for the Jedi to shut him out, because of his illegitimate children. And here is some more of that poetic symmetry stuff:

    When Anakin gets "destroyed", when he turns away from the Jedi way, he leaves 3 things behind, as consequences of his fall from grace. Luke, Leia, and Darth Vader. They all 3 in a way become his illegitimate offspring. No wonder the Emperor felt threatened. His prince had 2 siblings who both could claim the throne. A classic dilemma among monarchies.
    How nicely it ends, when Anakin's good offspring, the good part of his fall, conquers over his evil offspring, the evil part of his fall.

    what serious student really can devote time to both his studies and romance,

    You have obviously never been on my campus... :D

    , and have both pursued equally well?

    Oh... [face_blush]

    Well, I see your point. It is all about an alternative StarWars anyway, right? Perhaps a new thread would be in order if we want to go in detail on whether the Jedi are supposed to be celibate or not?

    Stefano DiMera - a bad-guy on the day-time drama show: "Days of our lives"
  8. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    DarthSkeptical wants me to clarify where my opinion differs from his.
    You make it seem like we're disagreeing but actually I think we're saying much the same thing.

    Yes, perhaps you are right. I am sorry if it seemed like I was shamelessly stealing your point. I do not think the deaths of V & E are their goal. Where we differ is, I think, what we think they expect Darth Vader to do when being confronted.

    I do not think they expect Anakin to return.
    I do not think their goal is to redeem Anakin, because I think they already counted him out.
    I think Luke redeemed Anakin despite ObiWan and Yoda telling him otherwise.
    I think Yoda and Ben wants the light to outshine the dark. They want a warrior of the light to conquer the dark, and its users. If V & E thereby are destroyed, so be it. It happened before, it can happen again.

    As for backing things up:
    I take what Ben and Yoda say literally. I think Luke's experience at Bespin helped him redeem Anakin, as well as helping Anakin being redeemed. Yoda was never telling him the truth about Vader. It's debatable whether Yoda wanted Luke to know the truth in the first place. Anakin brings balance, does Yoda want balance?
    -------------------
    If Yoda meant Anakin by "another", does that mean that he considers Anakin a hope by himself? Spontaneous auto-redemption?
    Perhaps I am colored by my assumptions, but doesn't Yoda mean someone else, aside from the hope ObiWan mentioned?

    -He is our last hope [for balance]
    -No, there is another [another one besides Luke]

    If noone considers Anakin auto-redeemable (I like that word :)), and they fear Luke will be lost at Bespin, then they have to have meant someone else, who could bring back Anakin. Leia.
  9. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    jade_angel points to an error in one of my previous posts by stating:
    You make a good point, but Yoda also stated that Luke was reckless and was much like his father. He wouldn't train someone that he knew could end up just like Darth Vader. So no, Luke was not safe in Yoda's POV, he only trained Luke because the boy was right there and had the potential to become even worse if Vader had caught him.

    You are right, Luke wasn't a safe bet, I meant the fact that Luke was a bet out of harm's way, unlike Leia. Luke was safely on Dagobah where noone was trying to kill him. Sorry about the confusion.
    EDIT: Actually, after reading your post again a few times, I am not sure if I understood it correctly. Perhaps you can clarify if I got it wrong? END EDIT.

    She then continues:If Yoda's uncertain about Leia's fate and knows that they could possibly die he wouldn't really be stating about other hopes when he knows they could die. They can't gain another when the other is dead.

    They can, if "another" is interpreted as "one different from the first", and not "one more".
    Besides, that argument goes for Anakin as well, doesn't it? If Luke ends up dead, or worse, turned. How then, is Anakin another hope, provided he can't turn himself without "help"?



  10. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    DarthSkeptical compliments my sense of poetic drama by saying: This is a dead-on, practically poetic, interpretation of the Luke-Leia symbiosis. Though I'm not sure Björn mean it so, I think it also speaks to why it's more than enough for them just to be siblings. Leia doesn't need to be "another [hope]" to make a great literary point. There's so much that can be gleaned from her only being "another Skywalker".

    That was actually exactly what I meant. I take everything back, that I said about it being there for no reason, except for being the "other hope". Now, will you stop pinning me down for it? :)
  11. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
  12. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    If noone considers Anakin auto-redeemable (I like that word ), and they fear Luke will be lost at Bespin, then they have to have meant someone else, who could bring back Anakin. Leia.

    One tiny little flaw in that, Björn. They also fear Leia will be lost at Bespin--or at the very least say that Yoda "can't see" her future.

    Another flaw: the "if" clause. While a lot of what you say makes sense, I still don't get where you see a specific reference to Yoda and/or Ben saying that Anakin is irredeemable. If you can show me a line that could be plausibly interpreted as conclusively negative towards Anakin's salvation, I'd be grateful.
  13. darth-skycrawler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2001
    star 2
    The other hope is Leia not because she has a chance of beating Vader but because she could redeem him. Luke was not more pwoerful than Kenobi or Yoda. Yoda himself could not beat Anakin so Luke stood no chance. Leia does not need training therefore then to turn Anakin back since the simple fact that she is his daughter is enough.

    Lucas has said now that Anakin is the most powerful force user in the galaxy and that Luke was a halftrained boy. This in it self shows Luke had little chance of beating Vader. His job as the prequels will show us is too redeeem the chosen one. We do not yet know the whole prophecy maybe it says the chosen one will turn for a period of time. This maybe why they did not want to train Anakin and this would then proove that Yoda had full belive in the prophecy since it was going exactly as foretold.
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "Lucas has said now that Anakin is the most powerful force-user in the galaxy and that Luke was a halftrained boy. This in itself shows Luke had little chance of beating Vader."

    That's funny. In ROTJ, we see that Luke was able to beat Vader despite that his powers aren't stronger than Vader's.

    DarthSkeptical-

    I'll do the honors for Bjorn.

    Luke: There is still good in him.
    Obi-wan: He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil.

    Yoda: Only a fully trained Jedi knight with the Force as his ally would conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did, you would become an agent of evil.

    Obi-wan: I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader.

    Yoda: Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will.

    Obi-wan: A young jedi named Darth Vader was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil. Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force.

    Yoda: Beware. Anger, Fear, Aggression-the Dark Side of the Force are they....quick to join you when you fight. If once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny-consume you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice.

    Obi-wan: Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader, when that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed.

    Yoda: Strong is Vader, mind what you have learned, save you it can.

    Obi-wan: To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born.

    I think these are all the quotes to suggest that Yoda and Obi-wan believed that Anakin is irredeemable an as Bjorn pointed, all the business about wanting him redeemed is all Luke's idea.
  15. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Again, PMT99, I'm looking for direct statements. As has been discussed earlier, none of the lines you quote deny the possibility of Anakin's salvation.
  16. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Not true because these lines already indicate how Yoda and Obi-wan felt about Anakin when he turned to the Dark Side and became Vader.

    Only Luke was able to see the possibility of Anakin's salvation, you're just switching it with Yoda and Obi-wan's opinions about Anakin.
  17. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    With respect, you're making a very direct statement (to paraphrase, "Yoda and Ben felt he could not be saved"), and you can't point to a single line which is as emphatic as your own statement. As you've noted, Luke's intentions are made absolutely clear on several occasions. Yet, even given the possibility of dissuading him, at no point does either Yoda or Ben flat-out reject Luke's philosophy. Rather, throughout the entire original trilogy, they sidestep Luke's assertion. They never attempt to correct Luke at any point. There is no evidence whatsoever anywhere in the OT that Ben and Yoda actually disagree with Luke.

    The situation is analagous to a real life example. Imagine you're a student with a chronic problem in math. You announce to your teacher that you're going to take statistics next semester. She might very well say, "You're going to have to work very hard. Statistics is all about word problems." This doesn't mean your teacher believes you will fail. It means only that she's interested in informing you of the difficulties you will face.
  18. Moriah Organa of Alderaan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 1999
    star 3
    All the arguments that Yoda and Ben did not intend Luke to kill Darth Vader founder on one simple exchange.

    Luke: I can't kill my own father.

    Ben: Then the Emperor has already won.

    If his Teachers intend Luke to turn Vader back into Anakin *WHY DOESN'T BEN SAY SO???* Why doesn't he correct Luke's very dangerous misconception about their intentions? Obviously because Luke has it right. His teachers *do* want and expect him to kill Darth Vader and why would they want this *unless* they believed Vader was irredeemable?
  19. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    DarthSkeptical objects to my suggesting that Leia is the only one besides Luke to bring Anakin back, therefore she must be the other hope: One tiny little flaw in that, Björn. They also fear Leia will be lost at Bespin--or at the very least say that Yoda "can't see" her future.

    You sidestepped the other issue - please clarify whether you think Yoda thinks Anakin can redeem himself without any help from anyone else, or not.

    As for not seeing Leia's fate - Yoda also saw the possibility of Luke helping Leia, but ending up lost himself. I think it is plausible that Yoda referred to the rescued Leia as the other hope. Especially if Anakin is not expected to come back without help.

    DarthSkeptical then tries to throw us back a few pages, by demanding clearer evidence: While a lot of what you say makes sense, I still don't get where you see a specific reference to Yoda and/or Ben saying that Anakin is irredeemable. If you can show me a line that could be plausibly interpreted as conclusively negative towards Anakin's salvation, I'd be grateful.

    I would also be grateful if they had spoken more openly, but that is just not how it is.
    I admire PMT99's relentless quoting as seen in his reply on my behalf (thank you), but I think DarthSkeptical is right about one thing: You won't find a specific reference to Anakin being impossible to bring back, as in Yoda and Ben saying it out loud. What you will find, is that they think going to the dark side is a one-way street, and Anakin was destroyed. You have to draw the conclusions yourself.

    Can you find any evidence yourself, that Yoda and ObiWan does believe in Anakin? And we are of course talking about the direct statements you yourself requested.

    If an analogy is to be of actual use, not only a tool of propaganda, it has to be fair, and encompass all the significant issues.
    Imagine you're a student with a chronic problem in math. You announce to your teacher that you're going to take statistics next semester. She might very well say, "You're going to have to work very hard. Statistics is all about word problems."

    Fair enough, but you forget to mention that the teacher also says "Statistics are impossible to understand, if you have a chronic math problem. You will be kicked out of school for trying it". Furthermore - Without your teacher's permission, you go to summer camp where you have a hard time, but you eventually learn that statistics is not so hard after all, that you do have a shot. When you come back to your teacher, she considers it unfortunate that you went and discovered it. Are we really to believe that the Teacher wanted you to take the statistics class all along?
  20. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    Excellent point, Moriah
  21. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Well, I don't know if it's an excellent point, Moirah, but it's certainly a good one. Still, it's an idea we've already encountered in this thread and discussed at some length.

    To reiterate the main thrust of the argument, can't and won't aren't synonyms. One suggests inability. The other indicates unwillingness. What Ben and Yoda are trying to do is ensure that he has the ability to kill his father, but not the willingness to do so. So Ben's hardly instructing Luke to kill his father. He's just saying that if he hasn't got the ability to kill his father--even defensively--then the game's up.

    It's like when you sign up for military service and your commanders tell you that you must be prepared to die for your country. No one would take that as a direct order to go and get yourself killed. Rather, they're saying, if you're not prepared to die, if you're not willing to give this endeavor your last breath of air, then the other side will conquer you.

    DeVore put a different spin on my mostly grammatical argument by saying that Ben was speaking metaphorically anyway. The mission Ben's sending Luke on hasn't got as much to do with actually facing Vader himself as it does with facing his own potential to become another Vader. Yoda and Ben are essentially giving Luke a make-up exam on his Dagobah cave test.
  22. bigbird Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    The Jedi want to do away with the Sith because they consider them a threat to the galaxy since the Sith want to bring anarchy and chaos to the universe which is why it is the Jedi's duty as defenders of the galaxy to not let any of this happen to anyone by battling the Sith.

    Again, I think you are seeing the movies from the wrong perspective. You're seeing them as an Autobots vs. Decepticons type situation, where the evil-doers must always be destroyed, and that's all the Autobots do all day (searching the galaxy for the Decepticons.) The Jedi are peace-keepers, and they do all manner of things.

    Also, note that the Empire is exactly the opposite of 'anarchy and chaos'. I'm sure it's no coincidence that the Empire's structure is not unlike that of the Third Reich; the Empire is about bringing order to the galaxy, and removing all of those silly, disparate Republics (or blowing them up) :)

    The Sith want to do away with the Jedi because their last encounter with them almost destroyed them completely due to their in-fighting and deceit amongst each other which forced them to become a duo for the next 1000 years.

    When they returned, they took control of the Republic in secrecy, created an elite force known as the Empire, had the "chosen one" Anakin Skywalker as one of them, and took control of the entire universe. Once they had enough power, they managed to destroy all but 1 Jedi.


    Uhhh...man, I must have fallen asleep during this part of the movie. My apologies for not knowing this part of the PT and OT.


    So instead of the Jedi looking for revenge, they are opting to protect their future and by eliminating the Sith, they will have saved the galaxy and ensured themselves that they will be reborn starting with Luke.


    Conjecture based on made up evidence. I can prove my point about anything if I use illegitimate sources.

    He wanted to redeem himself because he felt he made too many mistakes with the other Skywalker, Anakin and he didn't want to make the same mistake with Luke which is why he trained him.

    Um, a few posts back you said:

    One more thing, why does Obi-wan need redemption anyway? He's not the one who's responsible for the deaths of all the Jedi, the downfall of the Republic, or the ruination of the universe.

    Did you answer your own question, and you now know that ObiWan was seeking redemption?

    Again, he wanted to redeem himself since he felt he made too many mistakes with Anakin and plus, he already knew that Luke hasn't followed the same path his father went just yet. While Anakin was afraid, Luke wasn't since he was a lot older than his father was when he met Yoda which is why he was ready to face his destiny.

    Um...so you are thinking that Ben was looking for redemption now, and that he was using this during the movies? Did you just formulate this opinion, or have you always thought this about the movies? I'm not attacking you or anything--just noticing that you seem to have changed opinions on something, and are now using it as justification for stuff. That's fine--it just proves that the Jedi Mind tricks are working on you :p

    I'm now thinking that Anakin started to train Luke because, like Bjorn said, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush (that's the expression over here in the States.) Ben had Luke sitting next to him, so he decided that he needed someone to come along with him...and Leia looked a little busy, anyway (being captured by Vader and all.)

    since he was a lot older than his father was when he met Yoda which is why he was ready to face his destiny.

    I'm not sure that comment makes any sense. I'm not aware that 'age' makes one 'ready for their destiny'. Yoda has stressed, twice, that being indoctrinated very young is essential for Jedi.

    lot older when it happened so he wasn't as susecptible to the Dark Side unlike Anakin who had 1 thing to lose out of his becoming a Jedi....his mother.

    Again, since when does 'being old' make you less 'susceptible' to the Dark Side?
  23. bigbird Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    Though I had been convinced otherwise at first, I'm going to argue with you, Skeptical, that Ben believes that Anakin is capable of redemption. Here's a list of reasons:

    "Obi-Wan once thought as you did."
    "...when that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed."

    Vader knows that Ben no longer believes in him. You noted before that this was Vader's opinion on the matter, and not Ben's. True, but one would think that if Vader said something like this, he is more than likely referring to a particular time when Ben told him "I thought there was good in you, Anakin--now I know there is not."

    I think Ben believes that Anakin is gone, and that is why he seems to suggest, repeatedly, that Luke should attack Vader. Yoda does not seem as adamant about Luke confronting Darth Vader--I think he speaks more figuratively.

    (Er, I had some more reasons, but this is the only other one I can think of ATM...sorry, early, brain not on yet.)

    The second reason that I'm pretty convinced that Ben wants Luke to kill Vader is his death.

    In ANH ObiWan does a short song and dance with Vader, and after he sees that Luke is getting to safety (and Luke is watching), he allows Vader to slay him. Why? Simple: To show Luke how evil Vader is.

    Ben could have fought for quite some time with Vader, possibly even winning the upper hand in the duel. Sure, it's not likely, but if he knows he is going to perish, he might as well give the fight of his life--hell, maybe he'll even give Vader a nasty wound that'll cripple him in some way. You just have to figure if Ben was already so hell-bent on having Vader destroyed that he would have given him a good fight, right?

    No, the real point of his confrontation (secondary to getting Luke & Leia out safely) was to have Luke see his death. He wanted to instill in Luke a sense of hatred and loathing for Vader that could not be removed easily. He knew there was some chance that Luke would learn of his lineage, but even so he needed something which always stick with Luke, reminding him that there was NO good left in Vader.

    If Ben entertained any thoughts about Vader's redemption he would not have taken the drastic measure that he did.

    I think this scene is really the most convincing to me--I see no way how it can be explained away. It's a big deal in the movies; it's not as trivial as interpreting the significance of one random line, ya know? :)

    --
    Also, you've noted that Ben is always aware of making the distinction (in his dialogue) between Anakin and Vader. I'm not sure it really matters--I think they are one in the same person to Ben.

    Yoda, at least in one line, does not make that distinction obvious, either:

    Luke: "Yoda, is Darth Vader my father?"
    Yoda: "Your father he is."

    No 'Anakin Skywalker is your father', no 'Darth Vader is not your father, but Anakin Skywalker was.' No, Yoda says, quite clearly, "Darth Vader is your father." I do believe this is his only quote where he blurs the distinction between the two, but I thought it worth mention.

    [of course, I still maintain that Yoda uses Vader as a construct for the evil within all people. Makes you wonder what terms the masters used to use in order to teach about the evil within :)]
  24. Y-S-N-H-C-B Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2001
    Ben knew because as Luke goes to leave Dagobah in his x-wing Ben says to Yoda " that boy is our last hope" to which Yoda replies "No there is another". I believe Yoda told Ben at that time.
  25. Bjorn75 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    I'm sorry if this was discussed earlier DarthSkeptical, but if the point was dismissed using the argument you propose here, I say there are grounds for a retrial.

    I offer an alternative analogy that contains the point Moriah was making:
    Your commanding officer, in the midst of battle, are instructing you how to take out an enemy command tent.

    CO: "You must blow up the enemy tent using this hand grenade!"
    You: "But I can't walk in there and blow myself up!"

    What would the CO say in this situation?
    1. "You idiot! That's not what I meant. You throw it!"
    or
    2. "Then the enemy has already won..."

    Ok, back to Star Wars.
    Luke's reply signifies that he thinks killing Darth Vader is what ObiWan has in mind. ObiWans reply in turn signifies that Luke indeed was right in thinking so. Other interpretations are valid of course, but IMHO that is stretching things a bit.

    EDIT: I just read the script, and ObiWan is pretty open about him urging Luke to "face and destroy" Vader. Feel free to dismiss this in case you don't accept the script as valid. END EDIT
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.