How come Ben didn't know that Leia was "the other" ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by ryanof1, Aug 14, 2001.

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  1. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    BigBird, thankfully, moves us in a direction we've not really explored before, namely, the significance of the Ben/Vader duel in ANH. He concludes . . . the real point of his confrontation (secondary to getting Luke & Leia out safely) was to have Luke see his death. He wanted to instill in Luke a sense of hatred and loathing for Vader that could not be removed easily. He knew there was some chance that Luke would learn of his lineage, but even so he needed something which always stick with Luke, reminding him that there was NO good left in Vader.

    In many ways I agree with this assessment. The point of the confrontation was for Luke see his death. He did need something to always stick with Luke.

    But it wasn't hatred for Vader. While I admit that SW2 and SW3 have already been promised to shed more light on Ben's actions in this battle, and that my opinion may have to change to accommodate these new revelations, I've believed from the first time I saw ANH that the point was more oblique. It was an instructive tool. He was trying to show the difference between how the Light and Dark sides work. The Light side is passive, the Dark, aggressive. No, it's not hatred for Vader that Ben was trying to impart. It was the simple question, "Why?" Why would a powerful Jedi simply give up?

    And it's really this question that motivates Luke's passage throughout the trilogy. He would encounter the question again when in the Dagobah cave, and he failed to follow Ben's example. He would face it in the Emperor's Throne Room when he strikes off Vader's hand, only to see the reflection of Vader in himself. Only when he throws down his lightsaber and refuses to fight does he get Ben's point: opposition to the Dark Side must be done according to Light Side principles. And this means recognizing, among other things, that you gain more, sometimes, by refusing to fight than by fighting brilliantly well.

    Now, understand, I'm not saying that Jedi were always trained in this way. I'm not saying the Padawan necessarily has to witness the death of the Master to advance (though it is curious that this is the ONLY paradigm we have at the moment). I'm saying that this lesson was very specific to the Skywalkers. We have to remember that Luke's situation and consequent training was in many ways abnormal. He started late, he had no fellow students, and he had exceptionally difficult goals placed before him. He was expected not only to vanquish the Emperor but to reignite the flame of the Jedi. So I think Ben chose this method of teaching because it would clearly and precisely define the Light Side in a way that Luke would remember and pass on. I think before this seeming last gasp of the Jedi, the training process was probably more subtle. The training process, because it lasted longer, and because there were more candidates, could afford to very precisely deliniate the actions one could take in battle and not violate the Light Side. There was time to teach the intricacy and subtlety involved in, for lack of a better word, passive-aggressive fighting. But with Luke, the point had to be made quickly.

    I think, too, there's a motivation behind Obi-Wan's action that is selfish. I clearly believe the movies are about Ben's redemption as much as Vader's. And I think in the moment of opportunity that Ben sees he has, he believes he's found a way to more effectively make a point that was lost on Luke's father.

    Finally, I think Ben is wordlessly telling Luke precisely what needs to be done to defeat Vader. I think he's saying to Luke, "If you want to win against Vader, you have to turn off your lightsaber." In other words, I think that this ANH sequence proves my point more than yours. I think he's demonstrating how "confront" does not mean "kill."
  2. Moriah Organa of Alderaan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 1999
    star 3
    Obi-Wan sacrificed himself because he was trapped between Vader and five stormtroopers and more reinforcements were on the way. Luke and the others had to leave *now* or they wouldn't get away. Luke would never abandon his teacher alive so.....

    Let's look at the earlier part of the duel. Unlike Luke Ben makes no attempt to appeal to Anakin Skywalker, in fact he refuses to acknowledge Darth Vader ever *was* Anakin Skywalker addressing him solely by his Sith title. Ben isn't just snowing Luke with his 'certain point of view' he truly believes Anakin Skywalker is dead, lost forever, and Darth Vader is no more than his Dark Side animated corpse 'More machine now than man, twisted and evil'.

    And I repeat if Ben and Yoda *don't* mean Luke to kill Darth Vader why don't they tell him so!

  3. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    I couldn't disagree more, Moriah.

    There are six lines between the master and his student. Both of Ben's attempt to make instructional points. He is Anakin's teacher to his last breath, letting his old student know what the consequences of his actions are, but allowing him to make the choice. Ben responds to Vader's claim of being the master by saying Only a master of evil, Darth, and to Vader's characterization of Ben's weakness with You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

    Both of these are didactic responses, intended to make his old student think. IMHO, this scene replayed in Vader's mind when he was trying to decide whether to save Luke in SW6. The similarity between the two duels could not have been lost on him. It wasn't just that Ben was providing an example for Luke to see. He was intentionally goading Vader into doing something unambiguously evil so that Anakin would have a memory of doing something that couldn't be rationalized. (The event could have been rationalized by Vader, but not Anakin.)

    This business of being boxed in by the approaching stormtroopers does, in fact, appear in The Annotated Screenplays [from page 80 Ben has seen the troops charging toward him and realizes that he is trapped] but I don't accept that as anything more than stage direction. [As an aside, I often wonder with Bouzerau's Screenplays whether his italicized descriptions of wholly visual scenes were actually written in the script like that, or if they're merely his written interpretation of the scenes as filmed.]. He's a Jedi Knight, who has clearly demonstrated ease dispensing with the relatively weak-minded stormtroopers. There are only five of them. He's got more than enough skill to stop them through mind control, much less through combat. From what we've seen in TPM, he could easily have done some sort of Force push on them.

    It seems to me terribly dangerous to say that the presence of these stormtroopers significantly affected his strategy. That would unacceptably (and, so far, anti-canonically) reduce the character of Obi-Wan into something approaching a Force novice. A Jedi Master simply wouldn't commit effective suicide because a few stormtroopers have dropped by. Not only that, but the Light Side cannot be more powerful, as it's always described, if a few stormtroopers and a half-robot pose a strategic threat serious enough to justify suicide.

    Ben is a Jedi Master. Not just a Jedi, but a Jedi Master, and the last living member of the Jedi Council. He is, by definition, an extraordinary teacher. He is making a point....to both of his padawan learners. To read anything less than that into his actions is, in many ways, to completely miss the point of the series.

    Likewise, if you have to wonder why they don't tell Luke directly to avoid killing Vader, you miss the central nature of the Jedi educational paradigm. It is not a matter of tests which call for a regurgitation of facts. Force education isn't like a high school history class. It's about practical, lifetime skills which must be so entirely believed that they inform every action of the person. In effect, it's a religious education. The padawan must believe, not know. You can't create belief by telling. You have to demonstrate, show, and, well, lead the student to make his or her own choices. That's why Anakin and Luke don't become Jedi until they actively choose to embrace the Light Side.

    Not only that, but don't forget that Ben and Yoda aren't just trying to defeat the Emperor. They're also interested in the aftermath of the Civil War. They have to rebuild the Jedi. If they just told Luke to do something, and he did it, they'd have an obedient student. They wouldn't have a Jedi Master. By leading Luke to his own choices, Ben really has become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine", because the s
  4. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "The Jedi are peace-keepers, and they do all manner of things."

    Yeah but the Sith are trouble-makers and they won't be bargained with, they can't be reasoned with, and they absolutely will not stop until they get what they want and that their longtime enemies, the Jedi are dead.

    No amount of peace-making skills would do the Jedi any good because they know that the Sith will try to kill them at any chance they get so the Jedi have no choice but to do battle with the Sith or else there's no future for them or the entire universe.

    "Uhhh...man, I must have fallen asleep during this part of the movie. My apologies for not knowing this part of the PT and OT."

    No problem. You can catch all these in ANH and TPM because what I've already mentioned is shown in these movies.

    "Conjecture based on made up evidence. I can prove my point about anything if I use illegitimate sources."

    But as I already mentioned above, no amount of peace-making skills would do the Jedi any good against the Sith because the Jedi already know that the Sith are relentless and they will stop at nothing to make sure the Jedi are dead which is why the Jedi have no choice but to do battle with the Sith because it's either kill or be killed.

    "Did you just answer your question, and did you now know that Obi-wan was seeking redemption?"

    Actually, If you have read the entire post then you know I was referring to Yoda, not Obi-wan but I do know now why Obi-wan was seeking redemption.

    "Ummm...so you are thinking that Ben was looking for redemption now, and that he was using this during the movies? Did you just formulate this opinion, or have you always thought about this during the movies?"

    For your information(which I will say again), I was referring to Yoda, not Obi-wan.

    "I'm not aware that "age" makes one "ready to face his destiny"."

    I meant that Luke proved you don't have to be young or old to be a Jedi.

    "Again, since when does "being old" make you less 'susceptible' to the Dark Side? The Dark Side is within , so it's certainly not going anywhere with age."

    Again, I said that Luke proved that you don't have to be young or old to be a Jedi and that he didn't have to worry about his aunt and uncle just like how Anakin worried about his mother since she's alive and they're dead.

    "Anakin lost his mother by being a Jedi? Hunh?"

    No, that's not what I said.

    I said that since Anakin is free and he chose to go with Qui-Gon to Coruscant to be a Jedi rather than stay with his mom, he will spend eternity without any contact from his mom and that will hurt him emotionally.

    "I said train them as a Jedi, and send them (like they did Luke) out to save the galaxy."

    As I've said before, Yoda (as he said so himself) could only train 1 apprentice and that it was impossible to train more than one.

    "Which movie(s) can I find these in?"

    Try TPM.
  5. Moriah Organa of Alderaan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 1999
    star 3
    There are six lines between the master and his student. Both of Ben's attempt to make instructional points. He is Anakin's teacher to his last breath, letting his old student know what the consequences of his actions are, but allowing him to make the choice. Ben responds to Vader's claim of being the master by saying Only a master of evil, Darth, and to Vader's characterization of Ben's weakness with You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

    My point is he calls him 'Darth' his Sith title, not Anakin. Ben no longer recognizes the creature opposit him as Anakin Skywalker.

    This business of being boxed in by the approaching stormtroopers does, in fact, appear in The Annotated Screenplays [from page 80 Ben has seen the troops charging toward him and realizes that he is trapped] but I don't accept that as anything more than stage direction.

    Which just happens to exactly match the action we see onscreen. The fact is Ben is cut off.

    It seems to me terribly dangerous to say that the presence of these stormtroopers significantly affected his strategy. That would unacceptably (and, so far, anti-canonically) reduce the character of Obi-Wan into something approaching a Force novice. A Jedi Master simply wouldn't commit effective suicide because a few stormtroopers have dropped by. Not only that, but the Light Side cannot be more powerful, as it's always described, if a few stormtroopers and a half-robot pose a strategic threat serious enough to justify suicide.

    Actually I agree with you here. Obi-Wan Kenobi is the greatest Jedi Knight of his age and even after twenty years on Tatooine still quite capable of handling a Sith and any number of Stormtroopers. The problem is he is running out of time. He has to get Luke and the Falcon out of here before reinforcements arrive and the alarm spreads. He has to end the fight *now* and he does.

    Likewise, if you have to wonder why they don't tell Luke directly to avoid killing Vader, you miss the central nature of the Jedi educational paradigm.

    I am not looking for blow by blow instructions of how Luke should handle Vader but a correction of a very serious misconception on their student's part.
    Luke believes his Masters want him to kill Darth Vader, his own father, and tells Ben he can't do it.
    *If* this is not indeed what Ben and Yoda want him to do I would expect Ben to say something like "That is not what we're asking of you." *not* "Then the Emperor has already won." suggesting all is lost *unless* Luke kills Vader.

  6. bigbird Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    In many ways I agree with this assessment. The point of the confrontation was for Luke see his death. He did need something to always stick with Luke.

    Another question this begs is--Did Ben intend for this duel to even happen? If Vader knew Ben was nearby, Ben knew Vader was nearby. Did Ben say he would take out the tractor beam with the intention of confronting Vader? How could he be sure that Luke would be in sight when he allowed Vader to kill him?

    And it's really this question that motivates Luke's passage throughout the trilogy.

    I think you've totally nailed it. I watched the scene again, and I think that if Ben _was_ trying to impart some sense of loathing and hatred in Luke towards Vader (or even the thought that 'Vader cannot be redeemed'), he would have done something different--like say something, or do something which would make it appear as if Vader slew him in a gory manner. I mean, he doesn't really even look like he's killed--he just kinda disappears. For all Luke (and Vader) knew he just pulled a magician's trick.

    So I think you're correct. Ben was trying to show Luke the passive resistance nature of the light side of the Force. The message I suggested (hate for Vader or the thought itself that people are beyond redemption) does not seem to be very in sync with what Jedi should be thinking.

    An interesting question--do the Jedi themselves believe that people are beyond redemption? If the Jedi are supposed to be good/holy/christian, shouldn't one argue that they should keep faith in people? That evil is not a permanent condition?

    He would encounter the question again when in the Dagobah cave, and he failed to follow Ben's example. He would face it in the Emperor's Throne Room when he strikes off Vader's hand, only to see the reflection of Vader in himself.

    Yeah, nice. I like your interpretation much, much more because it does help explain Luke's Jedi transformation at the end--he does finally get it--he has confronted Vader (figuratively and literally) and overcome them by the only real way that is possible; by deciding that choosing not to fight is often the only real way to win certain battles. Plently of mythical and real life (Gandhi) references could be thrown in here...and I like much more the mythical underpinnings of teaching the hero "fight by not fighting" than "impart in the hero a sense of loathing towards the enemy." And it really makes the tree cave scene, with Yoda's comment that he would not need his weapons, that much clearer.

    Only when he throws down his lightsaber and refuses to fight does he get Ben's point: opposition to the Dark Side must be done according to Light Side principles. And this means recognizing, among other things, that you gain more, sometimes, by refusing to fight than by fighting brilliantly well.

    So well put. And it meshes so well--at the pinnacle of the trilogy Luke finally learns what both of his previous tutors had been trying to teach him: In order to defeat the evil within and without, he had to drop his defenses and allow his inner strength to prevail.

    (You could also say that Ben never really trained Luke...until the end of ANH. Sure, he had his token little training on the Falcon, but Ben managed to deposit a huge nugget of mental training in Luke by his last act of courage.

    Hey, as an interesting aside, could we almost postulate that the fade-out trick is something having to do with 'self-sacrifice'? Once Jedi manage to commit an act (or acts) of sacrificing themselves for others that they enter the spiritual plane? Ben did it, Yoda did it (over the years?), and Anakin did it at the end.)

    Now, understand, I'm not saying that Jedi were always trained in this way. I'm not saying the Padawan necessarily has to witness the death of the Master to advance (though it is curious that this is the ONLY paradigm we have at the moment).

    Heh...that is amusing.

    ...more subtle. The training process, because it lasted longer, and because there were more cand
  7. DeVore420 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 1
    I am not looking for blow by blow instructions of how Luke should handle Vader but a correction of a very serious misconception on their student's part.
    Luke believes his Masters want him to kill Darth Vader, his own father, and tells Ben he can't do it.
    *If* this is not indeed what Ben and Yoda want him to do I would expect Ben to say something like "That is not what we're asking of you." *not* "Then the Emperor has already won." suggesting all is lost *unless* Luke kills Vader.


    Wait - I think we're forgetting something here. Yoda and Ben are NOT of the same mind regarding what they want Luke to accomplish, and how they see things.

    I do believe that both of them want to see the defeat of the Emperor and the Empire. But I think they have different ideas as to HOW that can come about, and WHO will participate.

    I think Ben does want Luke to physically kill Vader / Anakin, because of his response about the Emperor already winning if Luke can't do it. I agree that Ben now considers Vader a lost cause, and I speculate that while Ben might have at one time had faith in the good left in Anakin, we'll see in the prequels exactly why Ben seems so antagonistic towards Anakin / Vader.

    Ben sees the defeat of the Empire as coming from the physical destruction of Vader and his Emperor - this is why, even though he knows of Leia, he considers Luke the "last hope" - Leia's in no position to take on Vader and the Emperor, and Vader, to Ben, is totally a lost cause.

    Remember that Ben is portrayed as slightly more rash and given to emotion than the other Jedi we see in TPM. Granted, he's young, but it's reasonable to suggest that there's a side to him that would cause him to lean in this direction regarding the whole deal.

    Conversely, Yoda is 900 years old and any rashness is likely to have left him long ago. He never, ever suggests that Luke physically destroy Vader and in fact reinforces the idea that attacking or using weapons will only lead to the Dark Side. He's wise enough and experienced enough to see that encouraging Luke to actually KILL Vader is VERY risky because Luke could turn to the Dark Side in the process - and in fact, he almost does.

    Yoda knows that to achieve a REAL victory, Vader and the Emperor need to be defeated in a way so that the defeator cannot possibly take their place.

    Yoda sees the defeat of the Empire as coming from the redemption of Anakin through the vanquishing of Vader, rather than his destruction. Thus his missive to Luke to "confront" Vader. Partly it is what Luke needs to do to become a Jedi, but also it is what Vader needs to reawaken Anakin within himself. In this way, Yoda refers to Anakin when he says that "there is another."

    I just think it's dangerous to think of Yoda and Ben as wanting and knowing exactly the same things. It's clear by the "another hope" scene that they are NOT exactly alike in their thoughts, and it's reasonable to suggest that a 60 year old human and a 900 year old WhateverYodaIs would have different thoughts / perspectives on things.

  8. bigbird Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    No amount of peace-making skills would do the Jedi any good because they know that the Sith will try to kill them at any chance they get so the Jedi have no choice but to do battle with the Sith or else there's no future for them or the entire universe.

    Whatever...it's not possible to make a point about a Jedi-Sith conflict since it has not been seen yet. With the current information we have it doesn't make any sense (two Jedi take out almost every Jedi in the universe??), so until this 'War of the Jedi' is seen on film I don't think it valid to use it to argue that all Ben and Yoda were after was to continue some silly clan war.

    "Uhhh...man, I must have fallen asleep during this part of the movie. My apologies for not knowing this part of the PT and OT."

    No problem. You can catch all these in ANH and TPM because what I've already mentioned is shown in these movies.


    Did you read what I quoted from you originally? Here--let me poop it back up here:


    The Sith want to do away with the Jedi because their last encounter with them almost destroyed them completely due to their in-fighting and deceit amongst each other which forced them to become a duo for the next 1000 years.

    When they returned, they took control of the Republic in secrecy, created an elite force known as the Empire, had the "chosen one" Anakin Skywalker as one of them, and took control of the entire universe. Once they had enough power, they managed to destroy all but 1 Jedi.

    It's possible you have the EU and OT jumbled in your head, because none of this is fact. Some if it can be inferred from the information we have in TPM and ANH, but none of this is certainly how it happens exactly...yet.

    But as I already mentioned above, no amount of peace-making skills would do the Jedi any good against the Sith because the Jedi already know that the Sith are relentless and they will stop at nothing to make sure the Jedi are dead which is why the Jedi have no choice but to do battle with the Sith because it's either kill or be killed.

    So you are saying that there is nothing, short of death, which is effective in any confrontation? Read Skeptical's post about Ben's death--I'm not sure you understand what the Light Side of the Force is about. The way you are talking, both Jedi and Sith end up appearing as Dark Side minions--both of them battling just to kill each other. I simply cannot accept that's the way the Jedi are, based on everything that was shown to us about the Jedi in the four movies.

    Actually, If you have read the entire post then you know I was referring to Yoda, not Obi-wan but I do know now why Obi-wan was seeking redemption.

    For your information(which I will say again), I was referring to Yoda, not Obi-wan.


    Oh, crap, my bad. Sorry about that--you said 'he' numerous times so I assumed you were talking about Ben, and his need for redemption.

    But now that I realize you were actually talking about Yoda, I'm really gonna need some clarification. I see nowhere that Yoda expresses any remorse for the way that Vader turned out; which is understandable, because he didn't have any part in training him. Why are you saying that Yoda is seeking redemption?

    "I'm not aware that "age" makes one "ready to face his destiny"."

    I meant that Luke proved you don't have to be young or old to be a Jedi.


    Ah...then why didn't you say that? :)


    "Again, since when does "being old" make you less 'susceptible' to the Dark Side? The Dark Side is within , so it's certainly not going anywhere with age."

    Again, I said that Luke proved that you don't have to be young or old to be a Jedi and that he didn't have to worry about his aunt and uncle just like how Anakin worried about his mother since she's alive and they're dead.


    You're losing me...what does worrying about one's relatives have to do with age or 'dark side susceptibility'?

    I said that since Anakin is free and he chose to go with Qui-Gon to Coruscant to be a
  9. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "It's not possible to make a point about a Jedi-Sith conflict since it has not been seen yet. With the current information we have it doesn't make sense(two Jedi take out almost every Jedi???), so until this "war of the Jedi" is seen on film I don't think it's valid to use it to argue that all Ben and Yoda were after was to continue this silly clan war."

    If you were paying close attention, then you'd know that the whole Jedi-Sith conflict has already been shown in all 4 movies.

    The whole '2 Sith taking out almost every Jedi' is mentioned by Obi-wan and if he was lying, then we would have seen other Jedi besides him and Yoda who survived the purge.

    2 Jedi taking on a Sith lord.
    A geriatric Jedi taking on a bionic Sith lord.
    and
    A half-trained Jedi(and the last one for that matter) taking on 2 Sith lords who happen to be the same bionic Sith lord and his prunefaced master.

    The whole Jedi-Sith conflict has been referenced throughout TPM:

    Qui-Gon: He was trained in the Jedi arts. My only conclusion can be that it was....a Sith lord.
    Ki-Adi Mundi:Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.
    Mace Windu: I do not believed the Sith could've returned without us knowing it.

    Sidious: Move against the Jedi first.
    Darth Maul: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi, at last we will have revenge.

    It is already indicated that we'll see more of this Jedi-Sith conflict in the next 2 films due to what we know about it in the OT and they just might be showing a backstory to how this whole thing started in the final film so it is valid to point out that this "silly clan war" is what Yoda and Obi-wan are out for in hopes of eliminating Vader and the Emperor.

    "Did you read what I quoted from you originally?"

    Yes I did. So?

    "It's possible you have the EU and the OT jumbled in your head, because none of it is fact."

    Oh really?

    The Sith taking over the republic in secrecy is a fact because we already know that Palpatine is the Emperor and that he's masquerading under the identity of Darth Sidious. It is already indicated that he's now the new Supreme Chancellor

    Who do you think created the Empire? That's right, it was the Emperor himself.

    Anakin Skywalker becoming a Sith is a fact because it is already mentioned in the OT and will occur in Episode 3.

    The Sith killing almost every Jedi is a fact because throughout the OT, the only Jedi that are seen is Obi-wan and Yoda.

    The Sith taking over the galaxy is a fact because this is already shown throughout the OT.

    The Sith's near self-destruction and becoming a pair is fact because Lucas has said this repeatedly and it is mentioned in TPM( which I stated above).

    "So you are saying that there is nothing, short of death, which is effective in any confrontation? Read Skeptical's post about Ben's death--I'm not sure you understand what the Light Side of the Force is about. The way you are talking, both Jedi and Sith end up appearing as Dark Side minions--both of them battling just to kill each other. I simply cannot accept that's the way the Jedi are, based on everything that was shown to us about the Jedi in the four films."

    Too bad because if you had paid close attention, then you would have seen the duels between Jedi and Sith that have taken place in all 4 films and in each duel, the Jedi are forced to fight because the Sith are trying to kill them.

    I know exactly what the light side of the force is about and I have seen the Jedi use their peace-making skills and every time they use these skills, they wind up getting shot at, being chased, and are forced to fight a Dark Side force-user.

    For example:

    -Qui-Gon and Obi-wan trying to negotiate with the Trade Federation but it never took place because Qui and Obi are being gassed, shot at by droid armies, and were forced to cut them into pieces.

    -Luke being bullied by 2 outlaws and Obi-wan trying to reason with them by buying them a drink and you know what happens? The outlaws threw Luke aside and tried to gun down Obi-wan but Obi-wan drew out his lightsaber and ch
  10. DeVore420 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2001
    star 1
    PMT99:

    In case you didn't notice, this is the Classic Trilogy forum. This particular thread has indeed covered a lot of ground, but it's rooted in interpreting the OT.

    I believe it is against forum rules to post spoilers in this forum, and you are doing this REPEATEDLY.

    If you want to argue your points, don't use spoilers - or else post your spoiler comments in the appropriate forum. Others have been kind enough to refrain from mentioning spoilers, and speculation is noted as such. Please play along.

    If you were paying close attention, then you'd know that the whole Jedi-Sith conflict has already been shown in all 4 movies.

    Wrong. The term "Sith" is completely unmentioned in any of the OT films. It was _only_ explicitly shown in TPM.

    The whole '2 Sith taking out almost every Jedi' is mentioned by Obi-wan and if he was lying, then we would have seen other Jedi besides him and Yoda who survived the purge.

    Again, wrong. Ben says that Darth Vader and the Emperor hunted down and killed all of the Jedi. Again, there is no mention of the term "Sith" in the OT.

    It is already indicated that we'll see more of this Jedi-Sith conflict in the next 2 films due to what we know about it in the OT

    Wrong. I suspect we'll se more about the Jedi-Sith conflict in the next two films, but this is because it is established in TPM. There's nothing in the OT to indicate that there's a struggle between the Jedi and the Sith. The term "Sith" is not mentioned in the OT.

    so it is valid to point out that this "silly clan war" is what Yoda and Obi-wan are out for in hopes of eliminating Vader and the Emperor.

    Wrong. You've missed the point of the entire saga. Factoring in TPM, what Yoda wants is for balance to be brought back to the Force. The Jedi-Sith struggle is secondary to that - this prophecy is made quite clear in TPM.

    Anakin Skywalker becoming a Sith is a fact because it is already mentioned in the OT and will occur in Episode 3.

    Wrong. Anakin Skywalker's "turn to evil" is mentioned in the OT. The term "Sith" is not mentioned in the OT.

    You're also posting spoilers with this comment.

    The Sith killing almost every Jedi is a fact because throughout the OT, the only Jedi that are seen is Obi-wan and Yoda.

    Wrong. The fact that we only see Obi-wan and Yoda cannot be proof that all of the other Jedi are gone. You're using flawed logic again. The fact that Ben SAYS that most of the Jedi were exterminated in the OT is the proof that there are no Jedi left - the fact that we only see Obi-wan and Yoda is NOT.

    The Sith taking over the galaxy is a fact because this is already shown throughout the OT.

    This is starting to sound like a broken record, but.... wrong again. The Empire is shown to be attempting to control more and more. But we certainly don't see them "take over the galaxy" in the OT.

    Too bad because if you had paid close attention, then you would have seen the duels between Jedi and Sith that have taken place in all 4 films and in each duel, the Jedi are forced to fight because the Sith are trying to kill them.

    Wrong. Maybe YOU should start paying attention. In the OT we do not see the "Sith" (since "Sith" is never mentioned in the OT) trying to kill any Jedi - what we DO see is that Darth Vader attempts to CONVERT, not KILL Luke.

    You're also doubly wrong, because in the case of the Luke-Vader duel on Bespin, Luke came to take on Vader, not the other way around.

    I know exactly what the light side of the force is about

    Wrong. You think the Light Side and the Dark Side are the same - that users on both sides can go out and attack people at will if they want to. You've completely missed the entire point of the saga, which is that the Light Side is HARD to follow, and it requires that you choose NOT to fight. Luke made the choice to stay with the Light Side when he threw down his saber in ROTJ and refused to fight. And this is ultimately what saved everything.
  11. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Devore-

    I don't know where you get the idea that I'm using spoilers to prove my arguments because I haven't and the whole bit about the Sith killing every Jedi except Yoda and Obi-wan is not a spoiler because it is already mentioned in the OT and if YOU had paid attention, then you would have come to this statement made by Yoda:

    "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi you will be"

    This statement proves that Yoda and Ben were the only ones to survive and that Luke will be the last one when Yoda dies.

    "The term "Sith" is completely unmentionable in the OT"

    Just because the word Sith is not mentioned in the OT doesn't mean that the Sith don't exist. They didn't mention the prophecy, who the other Jedi were, Luke's grandma, Jar Jar, or Qui-Gon but that didn't mean that they don't exist.

    Besides, Lucas has covered the word Sith in the OT scripts.

    "There's nothing in the OT to indicate that there is a struggle between the Jedi and the Sith."

    That's because the Jedi aren't around anymore to even have a struggle with the Sith and besides, there are indications that Yoda and Ben wanted Vader and the Emperor eliminated and it's showcased in every dialogue they say to Luke.

    "What Yoda wants is for balance to be brought in the force. The Jedi-Sith struggle is secondary to that-this prophecy is made quite clear in TPM."

    I'm sorry but Yoda gave no mention of wanting the prophecy fulfilled in the OT because from what is shown in TPM, Yoda isn't too keen on the idea of this prophecy and plus, he makes a suggestion about a fully trained Jedi can conquer Vader and the Emperor while he's stopping Luke from taking off so the only thing he wants is Vader and the Emperor eliminated.

    "The fact that we only see Obi-wan and Yoda cannot be proof that all the other Jedi are gone."

    You are so wrong because again, Yoda has said to Luke before he died, "When gone am I, the last of the Jedi you will be" which indicates that Luke will be the last Jedi once Yoda dies and the fact that there was no other Jedi present in the OT besides Yoda and Obi-wan is proof that all the Jedi are dead.

    "In the OT, we do not see the Sith trying to kill the Jedi."

    You are so blind as a bat.

    ANH-Vader kills Obi-wan and nearly kills Luke in the Battle of Yavin.

    ROTJ-Vader almost kills Luke again when he throws his lightsaber at him and the Emperor came close to killing Luke when he was frying him with force lightning.

    "Luke came in to take on Vader, not the other way around."

    Wrong. He came to save his friends only to be forced to fight Vader.

    "You've completely missed the entire point of the Saga, which is that the Light Side is HARD to follow, and it requires that you choose NOT to fight."

    It's you who doesn't get the point because you rely too much on ROTJ and the cave scene. There was another message to this saga which is that fighting is a last resort when your opponents leave you no other choice and I've pointed this out with my list in my last post.

    No where in any of my posts did I say that the Light Side likes to attack at will, I said that the Light Side have no choice but to do battle with the Dark Side because as defenders of the galaxy, they must protect it by doing battle with the Dark Side and if you can't understand that, then I'm afraid you are the one who doesn't understand the REAL point of the saga.
  12. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    Moirah has responded with a lot of interesting points on the "ANH duel tangent".

    Some quick thoughts:

    I agree that Ben does not call Vader "Anakin". He calls him "Darth". But this is hardly surprising. He is talking to Darth at least as much as he is trying to reach Anakin. What's he supposed to do? Call him "Darth Anakin"? I don't think it has any bearing whatever on the question of whether Ben believes Anakin redeemable. I think you also have to interpret this for what it most clearly was: a plot device. Ben couldn't have referred to Vader as "Anakin" in SW4, otherwise the surprise would've been blown. While I think it would've been wiser to have had Ben not refer to him by any name, I don't think his referral to "Darth" speaks at all to whether he felt Anakin redeemable. It's my guess that SW3 might be able to shed some light on this.

    As for your other major point, which seeks to portray Ben's death as the conclusion of obviously superior Imperial strategy, I'm a little lost. On the one hand, you admit that Obi Wan could handle the stormtroopers, and on the other you seem to be saying that he couldn't--or at least not in a timely fashion. I'm not sure how you can have it both ways, especially given that Luke dispenses with the stormtrooper threat with one shot. It seems a stretch to suggest that Ben didn't have the wherewithal to slide into the hangar and lock the door with his lightsaber, whereas Luke accomplished the same goal with basically a "lucky shot".

    Ben's actions, then, are not consistent with someone who was unable to save himself, but rather someone who was unwilling to do so. Indeed, it seems clear to me that he knew what he had to do from almost the first glimpse of the Death Star. When the Falcon is getting pulled into the docking bay, he admonishes Han, You can't win. But there are alternatives to fighting. Later, when he and Luke part company for the final time, he says Your destiny lies along a different path from mine. The Force will be with you....always. Both these lines, but especially the latter one, seem to suggest that Ben's made up his mind already. He knows he's not makin' it off the Death Star.

  13. DarthPinkTaco Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 2
    This thread really has alot going for it, even though the answer is: He did.
  14. DarthSkeptical Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2001
    star 3
    BigBird almost throws them out as asides, but the questions he asks are fascinating, almost worthy of a thread unto themselves. Let's take them one by one.

    Did Ben intend for this duel to even happen? I think the answer here is probably "no", or, at best, "not in this way". His original purpose was merely to accompany R2 to Alderaan. He displayed no prescience about Alderaan's destruction. He didn't expect that they would encounter a Death Star, nor did he seem to even know what a Death Star was. It seems, therefore, unlikely to me that this specific duel, occurring in the way that it did, was his plan all the way back on Tatooine. However, I think he could well have considered something like it for years. He might've been looking for an opportunity to present itself. But that's speculation. What seems more supportable from the script is that he seems to have formulated his plan very soon after he discovered the existence of the Death Star. I think by the time the Falcon was tractored into the landing bay, he had a good idea of what he was going to do. Why else would he said to Han You can't win. But there are alternatives to fighting and then essentially said goodbye to Luke with Your destiny lies along a different path from mine. The Force will be with you...always.

    Did Ben say he would take out the tractor beam with the intention of confronting Vader? I think the answer here is a fairly unambiguous "yes". Again I would cite Ben's "farewell" line, above. But I would also bring in Vader's assessment of Ben's intent when he tells Tarkin, Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone..

    How could he be sure that Luke would be in sight when he allowed Vader to kill him? This one's a little trickier. I'm not sure whether he could be sure Luke would be in sight. He could, it seems to me, only make it likely. He was clearly trying to get to the Falcon, because that was the nature of the mission: put out the tractor then return to the ship. I think he could have correctly assessed that Vader would naturally go to the Falcon and await Ben's return. This would have been a sensible course of action. And, I think it likely, too, that Ben could've sensed Vader's location and moved in response to this knowledge. (Alternately, I think it would've been within Ben's capacity to have encountered Vader elsewhere, and then moved the fight within sight of the ship.) So getting himself into place wasn't beyond his power. Defending himself until Luke could've arrived also wasn't beyond his power. What Ben couldn't have had much control over, it seems to me, was assuring that Luke would've been successful in his mission.
  15. bigbird Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    If you were paying close attention, then you'd know that the whole Jedi-Sith conflict has already been shown in all 4 movies.


    Um, no, I've seen a struggle between two forces (the Empire and the Rebellion), one side of which has in its group of 'leaders' the Sith. Sure, there has been conflict betwixt the Jedi and Sith, but nothing I would have expected considering they are on the opposite sides in a conflict.

    TPM shows us that the Sith are seeking revenge for something. I'll watch TPM again if you like, but I don't see any evidence of some Autobots vs. Decepticons situation, like you continue to make it out to be.

    The whole '2 Sith taking out almost every Jedi' is mentioned by Obi-wan and if he was lying, then we would have seen other Jedi besides him and Yoda who survived the purge.


    Here's the line you're referring to:

    Ben: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights.

    I'm well aware of that line. I'm also aware of what it says--he helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. Tell me--if this is some personal grudge match that, as you say, spans the entire saga, why in the world would Vader be 'helping' the Empire to kill the Jedi? In every scene in the OT we see Vader 'doing things by himself'--he always wants to personally take care of Force-related stuff.

    If this 'conflict' is as prevalent as you say it is, Ben would have said "Vader hunted down and killed all the Jedi." Vader would not have been acting like a bounty hunter.

    Who do you think created the Empire? That's right, it was the Emperor himself.

    I don't see any proof for this statement? Has this happened yet, or been referenced in the films? I'm not arguing that it seems likely to be the case, but it is not a fact yet.

    Anakin Skywalker becoming a Sith is a fact because it is already mentioned in the OT and will occur in Episode 3.

    Agreed. This has been stated, so it is a fact, though we have not seen it yet.

    The Sith killing almost every Jedi is a fact because throughout the OT, the only Jedi that are seen is Obi-wan and Yoda.

    Addressed above and later on.

    The Sith taking over the galaxy is a fact because this is already shown throughout the OT.

    Well, it's actually the Empire that takes over large portions of the galaxy.

    The Sith's near self-destruction and becoming a pair is fact because Lucas has said this repeatedly and it is mentioned in TPM( which I stated above).

    This isn't exactly what you stated before. I'll admit I don't know TPM by heart yet--could you quote, specifically, where it says:

    The Sith want to do away with the Jedi because their last encounter with them almost destroyed them completely due to their in-fighting and deceit amongst each other which forced them to become a duo for the next 1000 years.

    I skimmed the text of the movie but didn't see anything like that, but it could just be for a lack of looking.

    Every peace-making skill the Jedi use have only made things worse because they winded up getting shot at, being chased, and forced to fight a dark-side force user hellbent on killing them so no, I'm not making them Dark Side minions because we have already seen them fighting each other even if the Jedi doesn't use the Dark Side to fight.

    I'm not going to suggest that their methods are very effective, because by everything we've seen in the films they certainly are not :) And all the good examples you list only serve to reinforce that.

    But I think the defining moment comes at the climax of the movie, when Luke throws down his weapon. He finally figures out that fighting is not the answer if you want to remain an agent of good. It's probably the biggest message that the movie tries to get across.

    "Why are you saying that Yoda is seeking redemption?"

    Because after what we saw in TPM, I think Yoda felt guilty because he didn't do
  16. bigbird Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    I certainly wouldn't want to remain to close to the topic at hand :)

    Did Ben intend for this duel to even happen?...However, I think he could well have considered something like it for years. He might've been looking for an opportunity to present itself. But that's speculation.

    Pretty wild speculation, too ;)

    What seems more supportable from the script is that he seems to have formulated his plan very soon after he discovered the existence of the Death Star. I think by the time the Falcon was tractored into the landing bay, he had a good idea of what he was going to do. Why else would he said to Han You can't win. But there are alternatives to fighting and then essentially said goodbye to Luke with Your destiny lies along a different path from mine. The Force will be with you...always.

    That's along the lines I was thinking. Ben said he would go do the tractor beam by himself...not because he had a heap of knowledge about disabling tractor beams on giant battle stations, but because he knew he was bound to run into Vader at some point (and it would be good to keep Luke at a distance, should that happen.)

    Did Ben say he would take out the tractor beam with the intention of confronting Vader? I think the answer here is a fairly unambiguous "yes". Again I would cite Ben's "farewell" line, above. But I would also bring in Vader's assessment of Ben's intent when he tells Tarkin, Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone..

    And that speaks reams of Vader's ability to sense the mind of his old master, or how set Ben was in his ways--I think it was the latter, though. Vader can sense Ben's presence, and what he's intending to _do_. He doesn't detect that Ben is thinking about shutting off the reactor and getting Luke and Han out of there--no, Ben is broadcasting "Come get me, you mechanical bastard."

    How could he be sure that Luke would be in sight when he allowed Vader to kill him? This one's a little trickier.

    Indeed. When watching the scene, though, they don't initially start out in front of the Falcon, but rather a short distance away. I can't tell if Ben tries to dance the battle that way, but they do end up getting in view of the Falcon. It's possible Ben could detect Luke's presence (?) the whole time, and knew when Luke was getting close to the Falcon...however, Ben does look over his shoulder to make sure Luke is watching before he lets Vader kill him. So...I dunno.

    have correctly assessed that Vader would naturally go to the Falcon and await Ben's return. This would have been a sensible course of action. And, I think it likely, too, that Ben could've sensed Vader's location and moved in response to this knowledge.

    Right--I think Ben was broadcasting loudly enough for Vader to come meet him somewhere, or he sensed Vader's presence, or both. How Ben knows his away around the station is another matter :)

  17. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "I don't see any evidence of some Autobots vs. Decepticons situation, like you continue to make it out to be."

    There is and I will show you with a few quotes:

    Darth Sidious: Move against the Jedi first.

    Ki-Adi Mundi: Draw out the Queen's attacker(Maul)

    Qui-Gon and Obi-wan finds Maul and they couldn't reason with him because they knew what his intentions were due to their last encounter with him which is why they were forced to fight him.

    Obi-wan: I don't think you boys can help. I must go alone.

    Darth Vader: Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.

    Obi-wan deactivates the tractor beam and is heading back to Luke and the others but is confronted by Vader armed with an already-ignited lightsaber and Obi-wan is forced to fight him.

    Yoda: You must confront Vader. Then and only then a Jedi you will be and confront him you will.

    Obi-wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.

    Both Ben and Yoda want Luke to fight Vader and, if necessary, the Emperor but Luke didn't want to kill his own father and Ben says with disappointment "Then the Emperor has already won".

    As I've said already, only Luke sees the possibility of Anakin's redemption and Yoda and Obi-wan cannot.

    "If this 'conflict is as prevalent as you say it is, Ben would have said, "Vader hunted down and killed all the Jedi". Vader would not have been acting like a bounty hunter."

    I wouldn't say that because Ben could be pulling that "certain POV" crap when he says Vader helped the Empire kill all the Jedi when he knows that noone besides a Sith(which Vader is) has ever come close to killing a Jedi so he could have meant that Vader did service for the Empire by hunting down and killing all the Jedi himself since he is of a match to the Jedi just like any other Sith lord.

    "I'm not arguing that it seems likely to be the case, but it is not a fact yet."

    When the upcoming movies are out, it will be.

    "It's actually the Empire that takes over large portions of the galaxy."

    True but the Sith are in charge of the Empire so they do take over the entire galaxy.

    "Could you quote, specifically, where it says:

    The Sith want to do away with the Jedi because their last encounter with them almost destroyed them completely due to their in-fighting and deceit amongst each other which forced them to become a duo for the next 1000 years."

    I got this from the TPM novelizations, the TPM insider's guide, and the TPM scrapbook and this quote is not exactly a spoiler unless it came from the Episode 2 section.

    "Hunh? Luke was pretty distraught over the deaths of the people he considers them parents."

    That's what I said. If you'd read the entire post, you would have seen the words, " while he was sad about their deaths".

    "Devore was addressing your flawed logic, which stated that because all we saw are Ben and Yoda, that didn't necessarily mean they were the only Jedi left."

    How is this logic flawed? Yoda and Obi-wan are the only ones shown in the OT and if you and Devore believed there were other Jedi, we would have seen them in the movies. Since they already told us what happened to the other Jedi and that they're the only ones left, then they are the only Jedi to survive in the OT until the end when Luke is the only one left.

    "That's fine that Yoda says only a trained Jedi can defeat can defeat the Emperor...because his line after that is "there is another"; his remote hope that Vader will be the one to redeem everything."


    I'm sorry but Yoda said a trained Jedi can defeat BOTH Vader and the Emperor so there's no way he would have any hope for him since he actually made that suggestion and that the other hope he referred to would have to take Luke's place had he failed and that hope is......Leia.

    Oh and before you can go into why Yoda didn't let Luke go to save her on Bespin, it is because he didn't forseen her death in the future but he did forsee that Luke would eventually save her and not go over to the Dark Side when he fought Vader.

    "Actually, you've said it before, and then yo
  18. dolphin Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 1999
    star 4
    Yes, either he didn't know if she was force sensitive or like someone said he didn't think her untrained status could be of any help.
  19. bigbird Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    "I don't see any evidence of some Autobots vs. Decepticons situation, like you continue to make it out to be."

    There is and I will show you with a few quotes:

    Darth Sidious: Move against the Jedi first.

    Oh, yes, certainly. Well why didn't I see that before?

    Oh, maybe it's because that quote has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Taking something out of context and trying to make it mean what you want it to mean is not a legitimate method of proving any point. The full quote is:

    Sidious: Move against the Jedi first...you will then have no difficulty taking the Queen back to Naboo, where she will sign the treaty.

    As in, take out the TWO Jedi first (Ben and Qui-Gon), then Maul can get away with the Queen. It's very clear what Sidious meant in that scene.

    Ki-Adi Mundi: Draw out the Queen's attacker


    Uh, OK. Mundi saying that they should try to discover the identity of the attacker of the Queen is indication of some ongoing clan war between the Sith and Jedi. Right. Tell me, wouldn't it make more sense if they knew that it was a Sith that attacked the Queen? Or maybe it would be more clear if Mundi said "Draw out and slay the Sith that attacked the Queen, because all Sith should be slaughtered since we're at war with them."

    Qui-Gon and Obi-wan finds Maul and they couldn't reason with him because they knew what his intentions were due to their last encounter with him which is why they were forced to fight him.

    You're contradicting yourself. First you're arguing that the Jedi and Sith are always at each other's throats because of some clan war, and now you're saying that Ben and Qui-Gon attacked Maul because of what they learned about him during their previous encounter. Which is it?!?

    Obi-wan: I don't think you boys can help. I must go alone.

    Darth Vader: Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.

    Obi-wan deactivates the tractor beam and is heading back to Luke and the others but is confronted by Vader armed with an already-ignited lightsaber and Obi-wan is forced to fight him.


    What does this have to do with anything? Or are you jumping to some new subject here?

    If you're trying to use this scene to reinforce the clan war argument...this is like saying "Solo fired his blaster at Greedo when Greedo pointed his weapon at Han. This is obviously because there is a centuries old clan war that has existed between human beings and whatever-race-Greedo-is."

    Yoda: You must confront Vader. Then and only then a Jedi you will be and confront him you will.

    Obi-wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.

    Both Ben and Yoda want Luke to fight Vader and, if necessary, the Emperor but Luke didn't want to kill his own father and Ben says with disappointment "Then the Emperor has already won".

    As I've said already, only Luke sees the possibility of Anakin's redemption and Yoda and Obi-wan cannot.


    Are you still working on quotes to reinforce your original statement [clan war]? If you were trying to address something that I stated earlier, then you need to quote it.

    If you are working on your original statement, these prove your point to an even lesser degree. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, assume you're talking about something else, and allow you to clarify.

    "If this 'conflict is as prevalent as you say it is, Ben would have said, "Vader hunted down and killed all the Jedi". Vader would not have been acting like a bounty hunter."

    I wouldn't say that because Ben could be pulling that "certain POV" crap when he says Vader helped the Empire kill all the Jedi when he knows that noone besides a Sith(which Vader is) has ever come close to killing a Jedi so he could have meant that Vader did service for the Empire by hunting down and killing all the Jedi himself since he is of a match to the Jedi just like any other Sith lord.

    That's 79 words without any punctuation, with multiple occurrences of the third person 'he'. Sorry--but I cou
  20. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "That quote has nothing to do with what you are talking about. Taking something out of context and trying to make it mean what you want it to mean is not a legitimate method of proving any point.

    It's very clear what Sidious meant in that scene."

    Oh really?. Tell me einstein, if having a treaty signed is all Sidious wanted, why is he waisting time sending Maul to go after the 2 Jedi instead of the Queen?

    He wouldn't have lost his apprentice all of a sudden if he had just sent him after the Queen and not the Jedi or better yet, not send Maul out at all.

    "Mundi saying that they should try to discover the identity of the attacker of the Queen is indication of some ongoing clan war between the Sith and the Jedi. Right. Tell me, wouldn't it make more sense if they knew that it was a Sith that attacked the Queen? or maybe it would be more clear if Mundi said, "Draw out and slay the Sith that attacked the Queen, because all Sith need to be slaughtered since we're at war with them."

    I've got a better one.

    It would've made a lot more sense if they had just told Qui-Gon and Obi-wan to stay put and let the Queen deal with her own battles if they didn't believe that her attacker was a Sith lord like you are suggesting.

    If they truly believed that the Sith have returned, then they should send Qui-Gon and Obi-wan to draw him out, otherwise why should they bother to do so if they are still under the impression that the Sith are still dead? They needed to be sure if Qui-Gon was correct which is why they sent him and Obi-wan out to find Darth Maul.

    "First your arguing that the Jedi and Sith are at each other's throats because of some clan war, and now you're saying that Ben and Qui-Gon attacked Maul because of what they learned about him during their previous encounter. Which is it?"

    Wouldn't you like to know?

    The "clan war" suggestion was made only to prove why Obi-wan and Yoda wanted Vader and the Emperor eliminated and what the Jedi's relationship with the Sith were like.

    This clan war has already been showcased in the movies but only the Sith believes that there is a clan war but if you still don't believe that, answer these questions:

    Why would Maul and Sidious want revenge on the Jedi?

    Why must every lightsaber duel be between a Jedi and a Sith?

    Why did the Emperor decide to zap Luke with lethal amounts of lightning after Luke deemed himself a Jedi?

    Why is Yoda and Ben that desperate to train Luke as a Jedi if not(as you are suggesting) to have him face Vader and the Emperor?

    Why must the council be that eager to find out whether the Sith are still alive?

    and

    Why did they only sent Qui-Gon and Obi-wan?

    If they knew what Maul was capable of, they could have sent some reinforcements to help Qui-Gon and Obi-wan but NOOOOOOOOOOOO. They've ensured their deaths because by the way Maul fights, there is no doubt that Qui-Gon and Obi-wan were already doomed.

    "What does this have to do with anything?"

    Everything [I had to say that] :D

    Obi-wan already sensed that Vader was onboard the Death Star and he didn't want Han, Luke, and Chewy to go along which is why he went alone. It is indicated right when the stormtroopers passed him, he drew out his weapon before he encountered Vader.

    Vader sensed that Obi-wan was onboard the Death Star when he checked to see if anyone was on the Millenium Falcon. He told this to Tarkin and wanted to go after Obi-wan by himself.

    "Are you still working on quotes to reinforce your original statement [clan war]? If you were trying to address something that I stated earlier, then you need to quote it."

    I have been quoting it but you keep missing the targets. Again, why would Yoda and Ben be that desperate to train Luke as a Jedi?
    The only answer to that question to that would be that they wanted him to face Vader and the Emperor but if not, then you tell me why.

    "Sorry--but I couldn't make any sense of that sentence at all."

    That's the problem, everytime I post something, you don't understand anything and I hate having to repeat m
  21. ecmbobafetts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 1
    I am sick of this stupid debate.

    You guys should start enjoying the movies and not trying to read to much into it. According to old stories when lucas wrote ESB leia wasnt his sister but he put there is another cuz he was going to have lukes long lost twin in ROTJ, but cuz of cutting out the last 3 chapters out and realizing he wanted to go back to the first 3 to tell the story of anakin instead of after jedi he had to wrap alot of lose ends in jedi. Thats y the attack on corrusant never took place and the emperor was on the death star instead. Vader wasnt suspose to die in ROTJ. Stuff like that so what lucas did was bring leia as lukes sister in the writing of ROTJ. When yoda told luke of his sister it now filled the hole created in ESB by saying there is another. which was meant to be a long lost sister which tied into the another line from ESB which he didnt mean it to mean vader was another vader. I dont go by my opinion of things i go by GL and thats what he said in a 80s interview about the remaining 6 chapters.

    Here is the post i left on another topic all most the same but it has spoilers but here it goes

    I have not responded to posts in awhile cuz most ppl are on the mark but some ppls posts on this topic are stupid. First if u read stuff from GL in the 80s obi does know about leia until yoda tells him between ESB and ROTJ. Dont u think if he knew of leia he would pursue her too and tell her to become a jedi. I dont know fully on the birth of them but what i remember from old material is yoda does in fact does protect their mother and ben is off in the clone wars with anakin as he turns to the dark side. In that time they r born and yoda is the one who takes luke to dagobah and leai goes with bail and padme to allderian. Luke is then taken to owen to be raised and obi wans on tatoonie not to look after luke but to hide out from the empire. According to old crap they didnt hide them to raise them as jedi when they were older, But to stop them from becoming jedi as they could be a greater threat to them then the empire. What else i remember is that obi and yoda wanted to reorganize the jedi order but then the empire begain to hunt them down and then it was only yoda and obi left so they had to turn to luke to save the jedi and universe. Thats y obi approaches luke when he does when the empire is at its highest power he figures what do we got to lose. Fear of leia and luke turning to the dark side is the biggst factor why they dont approach leia and tell her and start trainging her. Only after luke shows to yoda and obi that he will never turn to the dark side is when they tell him leia is his sister. I guess he had to prove himself. Thats y yoda and obi wans are always saying to luke i dont want to lose u to the emperor the way i lost vader. This is a big reason y obi doesnt tell luke sooner that vader is his father he wanted luke to build up anger for darth vader cuz if luke finds out later it might be easier for luke to kill vader. If luke knew from the start that vader was his father he might be easier to turn thats y ben hides that from him. In closing this is what it all boils down to

    Leia and luke r hiden because they could be a threat to the remaining jedi not to the emperor
    they can be a threat to the emperor too but it would be easier to convert jedi s that their parents are jedis
    obi doesnt know about leia until between ESB and ROTJ
    Luke proves himself that he will not turn to the dark side and that things have goten worse for the universe he is told of leia cuz he is meant to train her and past it on to their children

    I got more but i will let u guys pick this a part, even though i know i am right cuz i cant remember the GL story but this is from a background story that the fanclub had in 1984
  22. ecmbobafetts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 1
  23. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "I am sick of this stupid debate."

    If you don't like this debate, then get the hell out and quit waisting everyone's time for bringing back this old thread.

    "When Lucas wrote ESB Leia wasn't his sister."

    That's funny.

    When she heard Luke's cries for help while escaping from Bespin seems to suggest that GL did in fact made Leia a sister to Luke.

    "If he knew Leia he would pursue her and tell her to become a jedi."

    He could only use Luke because he's alot more stronger in the force than she is and Leia's only a last resort in case Luke failed in defeating Vader and the Emperor.

    "In that time they r born, Yoda is the only one that takes luke to Dagobah and leai goes with bail and padme to allderian."

    Yoda is NOT the only one.

    Obi-wan is also involved in the hiding of the twins and when Luke is born, he goes only to Tatooine, not Dagobah.

    "According to old crap they didn't hide them to raise them as jedi when they are older, But to stop them from becoming jedi as they could be a greater threat to them than to the Empire."

    How can Luke and Leia be a threat to the Jedi?

    That seems to contradict with Yoda and Obi-wan's beliefs about them being the last hope for the Jedi and by those comments, they wanted to train Luke and Leia by the time they were born but couldn't knowing that theywould trigger a disturbance in the force which would allow the Sith to know where it's coming from.

    They'll realise that there are still some Jedi left which will cause them to send the imperial troops to the very location and execute Yoda, Obi-wan, and the twins.

    "Luke and Leia r hidden because they could be a threat to the remaining jedi not to the emperor."

    Like I said, they would never consider Luke and Leia their last hope if they are a threat to the Jedi.
  24. ecmbobafetts Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 1
    i guess u arent much of a fan if u dont know the back story and i didnt start the debate so relax. What i said is from GL`s mouth if you cant deal with it then dont post replies on debates u dont know nothing about.

    First of all luke and leia have a connection not cuz they r twins but cuz luke has the force. Look from the grave obi-wan talks to luke because hes a jedi. Luke first calls for ben and when ben doesnt answer he calls for leia. Ben didnt answer luke cuz cuz he said he wont help luke. Maybe if a jedi thinks hard enuff he can make some hear him. She doesnt near him until he says "Leia hear me" almost like hes forcing her to hear him.

    as far them being a threat to the jedi as well as the dark side its true, thats what makes it so hard for yoda and ben to train luke. You can have some1 be ur last hope that u might not want to be or be afraid of. Look how much they pound into lukes head about we dont want to lose u to the dark side. As far as converting to the dark side, Anakin was the last one to do it so its not like they say that to every1 they train. The reason they kept saying it to luke is the fact his bloodline has a history of going to the darkside. Where i am sure if they found a possible jedi from across the galaxy not related to vader they wouldnt be so afraid to train him, but with luke and leia they werent sure what would happen. Then as time went by they realized they had no choice and they had to take a chance on luke. Thats why they didnt inform luke or leia they were related cuz if one of them did convert to the darkside cuz how close they the other might follow them to the dark side. Thats y once luke proves himself to yoda and ben after fighting Vader that Vader wont convert him they tell him about leia and Vader. Thats also y yoda says to not unterestimate the power of the emperor or suffer ur fathers fate u will. He wasnt unchanged from fighting Vader but the emperor is harder to say no to.
    I guess u didnt see the cave scene in ESB. This is the most important scene to show what yoda really sees happening to luke. What i mean is luke takes his anger towards Vader in the cave. And this is the most important, when luke cuts the head off and he sees his face inside. Lukes face being in the mask isnt what luke sees happening but what yoda sees happening if luke keeps going about the way he is. I mean luke didnt have on his mind i am going to see my face in vaders mask. He went in with fear and anger towards vader and then yoda stepped in to show him with those feelings this will be the outcome. Look at yodas reaction after he knows what happens. If u read things from GL it is yoda that makes lukes head appear in the mask and that is what yoda is afraid of losing luke. Just cuz u r a jedi master does mean u dont have fears or anger as long as u dont let them control ur actions. Yoda and ben were afraid to train anakin and luke ( ben was against qui-gon training him he only changed his mind after he promised qui-gon) but they didnt let that control them and they did the opposite of their fears.

    But as i said thats y it took them so long to give luke achance cuz they know they were the last hope. Like i said sometimes ur last hope may not be ur first choice but ur only choice. Look ben and yoda were to old and they saw the empire getting more powerful. Thats y they had no choice if luke was the great hope dont u think he would be trained at an earier age ben knew where he was. The reason y is ben and yoda were waiting and hoping some1 else would come to the forfront and destroy the sith but no one was left so they had to take a chance on luke. They also figured if luke fails and is converted they can search out leia, cuz Vader would be dead if luke turned cuz he would take vaders place and the emperor would keep luke instead of leia so that y leia is really the last hope and not luke ( u know the two sith rule) This is y leia and luke didnt know about each other until after luke proved himself. By them not telling luke about leia if luke turned he couldnt use leia like vader used luke to m
  25. Jedi of the West Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 1999
    star 4
    That is a question many of us have wondered all of these years. Hopefully we will get an answer in Ep. III. I also hope they explain how Luke was hidden from Darth Vader and the Emperor by using the name Skywalker.
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