main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST How Could Ep7 Top Empire?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by ObiSpamBaloney, Nov 5, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ObiSpamBaloney

    ObiSpamBaloney Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2014
  2. JediKnightWax

    JediKnightWax Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    With a cherry.
     
    Darkslayer, Redimet, DiMiT and 7 others like this.
  3. DidIAskWhatWasCanon

    DidIAskWhatWasCanon Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2014
    I don't know: can *you* film the Empire State Building any better than Warhol did? http://nymag.com/nymetro/arts/art/10422/
     
  4. Primetime_Jedi

    Primetime_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2000
    I like this thread idea. For me, what made Empire Strikes Back great was a stellar combination of these elements:

    - fantastic action sequences & music
    - banter between Han & Leia
    - interesting mysticism with Yoda and Luke
    - climactic confrontation with Vader
    - willingness to put characters through pain

    The "I am your father" moment is only a side benefit, IMO. The movie is awesome regardless.

    So with Episode VII, it needs to hit these points for the most part, and add a couple more if possible. Of course, the characters and their "stage in life" will be different.

    With Daniels saying VII could top Empire, it's clearly to pump up the fans. The movie's far from finished. He would have had to read the entire script, which may not have happened. But maybe for a SW veteran of his magnitude they let him.
     
  5. D.A. McCoy

    D.A. McCoy Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2014
    I think it would be very hard to top Empire, but I don't think it has much to do with the movie itself. Don't get me wrong, I think it's the best of the films and it's hard to imagine Ep. 7 being better, but I do believe it's possible. What I don't think is possible is it actually topping Empire in people's minds. Look at all of the circumstances with Empire: One of the first sequels to be better than the original, the twist with the I'm your father thing, the improved effects, it's place at the "start" of the 80's and it's place in people's childhoods, etc. Empire came out and proved a lot of things about sequels wrong, and it became the most beloved SW film to many fans. I think we're in different circumstances now with Episode VII. We've seen a lot of good sequels, effects aren't that exciting anymore since we've "seen it all before", and we're in different places in our lives than when Empire was released. I think some skepticism over the Disney acquisition still is coming into play against VII as well. On the other hand, though, the reception to the PT might counter act that positively. Either way, though, I think Empire is looked at so fondly not just for its cinematic quality but also for it's place in many people's childhoods. I bet kids who see Episode VII as their first Star Wars film will prefer it or the ST to all the others for the same reason.
     
  6. JediKnightWax

    JediKnightWax Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 21, 2014
    Bring the mystery back into star wars.
     
  7. Luminous Beings Are We

    Luminous Beings Are We Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    If this movie is really good and it generally improves with VIII and IX, we may one day see Empire toppled as far as holding that #1 spot in most fans' hearts. We may still love it best, but the coming generation will have reason enough to put their own first.

    What if one or more of the PT films had been good enough to seriously topple Empire? I would've loved to have seen that. May Empire and the other 5 films inspire Disney to further greatness! :D
     
    Dak Oolron likes this.
  8. Luukeskywalker

    Luukeskywalker Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 1999
    To some of us, ESB was never the pinnacle of Star Wars to begin with.

    For me, Return of the Jedi was always my favorite Star Wars movie....until Revenge of the Sith came out.

    For me, it's going to be, will Episode VII be able to top ROTS?
     
  9. Jcuk

    Jcuk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2013
    It'll only take a half decent script and some competent direction to surpass any of the prequels IMO. To surpass ESB it's going to have to be something truly special.
     
  10. plaidphoenix

    plaidphoenix Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2013
    The better question is, can Episode VII top the Christmas Special?
     
  11. stellarmagic01

    stellarmagic01 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Wow, you set the bar low.
     
    Dak Oolron likes this.
  12. D'an

    D'an Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Simple: it only has to become a world wide cultural phenomenon full of iconic sequences and unforgettable dialog pleasing to critics & fans of multiple generations. It has to spawn a new wave of toys and action figures and alter the course of cinematic direction. It has to be considered JJ Abrams' crowning achievement. It has to elevate Daisy & Boyega to such iconic status that they'll have a hard time landing any other roles. It has to inspire impressionable minds to the point that clubs and websites are created in its honor.

    No pressure...
     
    Eternal_Jedi, Dak Oolron and Jcuk like this.
  13. Luminous Beings Are We

    Luminous Beings Are We Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    YODA: No. Episode VII will be the NEW Christmas Special.
     
  14. Allana_Rey

    Allana_Rey Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I think what makes Empire so great is the big revelation at the end. So maybe by doing another big revelation.
     
    forzaskywalker likes this.
  15. acroyear7

    acroyear7 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Have you even watched ESB? If you have then you should be able to answer the question yourself.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  16. D.A. McCoy

    D.A. McCoy Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Here's perhaps the hardest thing Episode VII has against it. When V was released, nobody expected it and it made people question, deny, embrace, or just think about it. It was also during a time where plot twists like that weren't as common in franchise films as they are now. Now, if Episode VII pulls a twist too, it's not going to be looked at on its own merit, but rather it will be compared to Empire and will also probably be "expected" because of this.
    I think that element of it, along with the general dislike of the PT and wanting this to "bring back Star Wars" is tough for VII. I think for many, if Episode VII isn't great it will be the equivalent of Episode VII being bad. Less of a chance of that with people like us who like Star Wars enough to join a forum, but still, it's probably a good idea to keep expectations in check when hearing cast members say things like this. I'm going to walk into Episode VII ready to feel happy with something TPM-quality. (In my case, least favorite, not great, but it's still a Star Wars movie and I'll walk out happy it was made, at least). If it goes beyond that, then I'm going to be able to enjoy it even more.
     
  17. plaidphoenix

    plaidphoenix Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2013
    I set the bar high. The Christmas Special aired only once 25 years ago and people are still talking about it.
     
  18. ArchStanton1862

    ArchStanton1862 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2014
    I think that for all of us ESB will probably have a permanent place in our hearts just for sheer nostalgia value. But I'm certainly ready for something on the same scale. What ESB did so well was sell a more organized vision of resistance and mission than ANH. It had a sense of comradery and group mission that really sold the idea of the Rebellion. The mystic stuff was new and interesting and the increased presence of the enemy gave a sense of threat lacking in ANH or any of the other movies really. The love story was compelling and fun to watch, the characters charming as ever, and the action scenes were just fun to watch.

    But a problem comes when you try and use this model to create a new ESB. ESB told us exactly the story we wanted to see, even if we didn't know it. It showed us the Rebels on the run. It showed us a serious struggle for survival. It showed us that our leads were not infallible. Now some of these things only work in a second film. For example, we had all of ANH to grow close to Luke and his rather carefree heroics. To see his heroism turn into a reckless self-confidence was quite shocking, and as natural as it felt to his character progression it wasn't possible to show this until you've already formed an opinion of him in the first film. And of course the big twist wouldn't have been as big a deal if it had come at the end of ANH. Some other aspects only work in films set during the Rebellion era. Now we don't know all the details of the ST background but it seems fair to say that the Rebellion will be a legitimate government now, and quite probably one that's even more powerful than what's left of the Empire. The boyish exuberance of the resistance is done and what's left is a more gritty determination to survive. So being a part of an organization under attack by overwhelming odds isn't going to happen. I'm sure they'll be outnumbered, but we're more likely to see them serving in a much smaller group on their own. The feeling of a common struggle cannot be replaced without seriously distorting the ST's setting.

    Basically what I'm saying is that the best way to make it as good as ESB is to not try to make it ESB. Some elements should certainly be there, like the witty dialogue, the romance, and the sense of danger, but it needs to be its own beast and tell the story it wants to tell. As long as the film can sell its world and story as well as ESB did it should be a huge success. It doesn't need a big shocking twist or a darker premise to succeed. Those would just be distractions unless they flowed naturally from the story. Because there are a lot more stories to be told in that universe than just variations on the same one.
     
  19. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Exactly.

    That's fine for you. I would say that considering how excellent those levels were in the prequels that more than likely VII won't be able to touch it no matter what it does since for you ESB is at a mythic pinnacle.

    It can't do that though because it's already been done. It's part of one. The toys are already coming. It can't alter cinematic direction as the prequels did that already for the foreseeable future. All the films are pleasing to multiple generations so that's already happened as well.

    What's more this is going to be ultimately just one of a number of films every year. There will be little time for them to breath. It's no longer the personal vision of one man over 6 films made over 30 years but one that will have 30 films churned out over 30 years or more if they can manage it.

    I always find it so odd placing so much importance on dialog for Star Wars. I really do.

    Like it's some drama.
     
    Andy Wylde likes this.
  20. Dak Oolron

    Dak Oolron Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2014
    Considering the release date, good call... ;)
     
  21. Luminous Beings Are We

    Luminous Beings Are We Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    ^ This guy knows what's up.
     
    Dak Oolron likes this.
  22. Victorian Time Traveler

    Victorian Time Traveler Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    The only way VII can top ESB is if there's a huge game changer of "I am your father" proportions. And if all the rumors are true, it sounds like that's exactly what we're getting.
     
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  23. plaidphoenix

    plaidphoenix Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2013
    I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
     
  24. SomeoneSomewhere

    SomeoneSomewhere Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2014
    Personally, I'll be okay with something that tops ROTS without losing the "Star Wars" feel. That alone would probably put it in the top half of the Star Wars movies.

    As for a good twist... ****, Luke turning to the darkside is literally one of the few twists they have left. I really hate that possibility.
     
  25. ArchStanton1862

    ArchStanton1862 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2014
    There are quite a few plot twists they could do, but it's very hard to do them on your first new movie in thirty years. They need time to establish the norm before they can change it unexpectedly. Sequels are the place for them really.
     
    Revious Nugo and Bennihana like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.