Lit How could the Empire have changed for the better?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Alixen, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Vile as Daala might be about some things- she recognized that Imperial prejudice (and infighting) in the military was a Bad Thing in Darksaber. And took steps to counter it.

    Just because she's bad, doesn't mean she's always incorrect in her perspectives.
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  2. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    Killing Palpatine and having Anakin take over would most likely change for the better. Palpatine KILLED PEOPLE FOR FUN, Anakin would at least really seek peace and prosperity.
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Admittedly, Anakin also killed people for frustration at his rather shavit situation.
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  4. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    Am I the only one who finds a ****on of similarities between Palpatine and Hitler's rise to power? Wondef if this was intentional by Lucas.

    You cannot use that word. And while I'm here -- yes, it was intentional.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Sep 30, 2013
  5. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    They could not enslave people, that's a good start.
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    According to Pellaeon at least- that was one of the things the Remnant stopped doing:

    page 281-282 Vision of the Future:

    "Let me first state what the Empire would want included in any treaty between us," Pellaeon said. "We would want our recent borders confirmed and accepted by Coruscant, with guarantees of free travel and trade between our worlds and those of the New Republic. No harassment; no border skirmishes; no propaganda pressure against us."
    "What about the nonhumans living under Imperial rule?" Sakhisakh demanded. "Are we merely to accept their slavery?"
    Pellaeon shook his head. "The Empire which once enslaved and exploited thinking beings is dead," he told the Noghri. "The human domination of Palpatine long ago became full cooperation between all the beings within our borders."
    "Do all your subjects agree that they're now equals?" Leia asked.
    "Probably not," Pellaeon conceded. "But once we had the security of a peace treaty, any Imperial system wishing to join the New Republic would be offered the chance to do so."
    He lifted his eyebrows. "By the same token, we would expect systems within your borders who wish to rejoin the Empire to also be allowed to make that choice, with the same security and free trade guarantees extended to them."
    Sakhisakh bit out a Noghri curse. "What people would be so foolish as to give you their freedom?" he demanded contemptuously.
    "You might be surprised," Pellaeon said. "Freedom, after all, is a highly relative and subjective thing. And as I say, we're not the Empire you knew."
    The Noghri rumbled under his breath again but remained silent. "Of course, all guarantees of safety would work the other direction as well," Pellaeon said, turning back to Leia. "No attacks by Imperial forces; no provocation; no hired privateers."
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  7. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Actually the British did play a role. The defeat in the Crimean war by the British and French caused huge Serf rebellions and economic problems and was the prime mover of the abolishian of serfdom in Russia.

    Btw this book you might find interesting

    http://www.amazon.com/Libertys-Exil...d=1380560693&sr=1-1&keywords=liberty's exiles
    Last edited by fett 4, Sep 30, 2013
  8. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yeah, I mean -- it's in her interest to make it look good, as she's the founder of the Remnant after all. But Pelly was pretty clear what he was talking about, given that Han and Leia were pretty repulsed by that philosophy -- whereas I'm pretty sure they'd approve of pruning out "the bad aspects."

    Really, the Imperial Remnant just feels a bit like North Korea to me, perhaps without the strange propaganda and leader worship. They're an isolated, economically backwards totalitarian régime that has a vastly oversized military which polishes up all the shinies when foreigners come to visit. They even felt rather isolationist, and probably a rather interesting spin on history too...
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  9. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    Dec 17, 2011
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    Pellaeon: From a garden one learns to cull the weak and unfit to encourage the strong and the vigorous. An inferior bud soon feels the strength of my pinch!

    Han: And you make your plants grow in rows.

    Pellaeon: Each receives its proper allotment of space and sunlight, and no more. That's fair, don't you think?

    Based on that conversation and everything else stated about the Remnant it hardly seems that bad, and i'm inclined to agree with the garden analogy. He specifically notes with the space and sunlight references that every person's basically given the opportunity to perform their task, and if they fail they're simply removed from it. This along with the lack of any type of secret police, frowned upon racism, and the general inclusion of all species in the government still seems like, as I said, much better than the Empire.

    Again, it's not all rainbows and sunshine, so of course Han and Leia aren't going to like it, but its still an improvement. It is still a government that was formed from the much harsher Empire, and will therefore still have some characteristics of it. Few members of the New Republic will ever approve of it.
    Last edited by DarthJenari, Sep 30, 2013
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  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    They didn't seem much like they were talking to someone who commits murder on Social Darwinist principles though- although their disapproval is obvious:

    "Every ruler should have a garden," Pellaeon said. "It's always useful to draw lessons from nature."
    "True." Leia cupped a vast pink blossom and lifted it to her face, inhaled its scent.
    "From a garden one learns to cull the weak and unfit," Pellaeon continued, "and to encourage the strong and vigorous." He held up his thumb and forefinger. "An inferior bud soon feels the strength of my pinch!"
    Leia sighed and straightened, letting the blossom fall from her fingers. She supposed it was too much to hope for that she could stay for long on Bastion without being reminded what the Empire was really about.
    Han gave Pellaeon's pinching hand an appraising look. "And you make your plants grow in rows," he said.
    "Each receives its proper allotment of space and sunlight and no more," Pellaeon said. "That's fair, don't you think?"
    "But plants don't naturally grow in rows," Han pointed out. "This is only possible -" He gave a deliberate glance at the glass arboretum overhead. "- in a highly artificial environment."
    Bravo! Leia thought at her husband. I swear I'll make a diplomat of you yet!
    Pellaeon gave a judicious smile. "You prefer the state of nature then? I think you will find that in a state of nature, the weak are culled in a far more merciless state than you find here."
    Leia took her husband's arm. "Let's say that I prefer a balance," she said. "There should be enough nature so that the plants can thrive by following their natures, if you see what I mean."

    Extrapolating from Pellaeon's statements about gardening to the way he lives his life personally and politically, a really harsh reading of his next statement would be that he's implying he's a rapist:

    "That notion of balance is derived from Jedi philosophy, if I'm not mistaken," Pellaeon said. "But such hybrid beauty as you see here" - he indicated the blossom Leia has just cupped in her hands - "is not a matter of balance, or nature, but a contest of wills. The will of the gardener, and the will of the plant he must coerce into surrendering her treasure."

    which I think would be somewhat of a overextrapolation in this case.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 30, 2013
  11. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Sure, but he says in his first sentence that he draws lessons in ruling from nature, and it's obvious that Han and Pelly's banter has political subtext. It's not just polite small talk. And Leia's "being reminded what the Empire was really about" makes it clear exactly what she thinks of his statements.
  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Indeed.

    It would be interesting if they had gotten the wrong end of the stick entirely about "pruning" especially since in Zahn's original take on the Remnant, Pellaeon does not want it isolationist at all- he is insisting on

    "guarantees of free travel and trade between our worlds and those of the New Republic."

    Daala's version of Pellaeon:

    Gilad served Grand Admiral Thrawn, and the Ruling Council, and for a brief time he once served me. He always did so with merit and with honor. He gave his superiors neither flattery nor scorn, but information and support - and counsel, if they were wise enough to ask for it. He demanded much of his subordinates, above all else that they served the Empire with the same professionalism and pride he brought to everything he did. And by doing so, he gave much to them too. Many of them became honorable men and women because of his teachings.

    And of course for many years he served these proud sectors and these bright stars. Gilad Pellaeon preserved the Empire. More than that, he saved it. He saved it from the territorial lusts of the New Republic and the murderous nihilism of the Yuuzhan Vong, leading from the bridge of Star Destroyers and once from a bacta tank. He saved the Empire from the abuses and prejudice with which an unprincipled few had blackened its name. And he restored the honor and order too many had forgotten the Empire once stood for. Right here, in these gardens, he nurtured what was good and weeded out what was not, until the ideals of the Empire flourished once again.

    I said that he once served me, and that was a great honor. But I am more honored to say that I once served him.

    Rose-tinted, certainly. But the basic point, that all that was worst in the Empire was down to "an unprincipled few" rather than common practice at all levels, seems to be one you like to make a lot.

    And the Fel Empire, which you've said was the closest thing to a "worthy successor" to Palpatine's, honored Pellaeon with the name of its best-known battleships- the Pellaeon-class Star Destroyers.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 30, 2013
  13. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    May 4, 2003
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    It is entirely normal for nations to have internal political reactions to major world events. I wouldn't dispute that, nor is it really necessary to. The point is that the reaction was still entirely an internal. Another country didn't need to invade and force them to change. The Russian people and government came to that on their own. Why wouldn't Indians be capable of the same?


    I've not had occasion to read it, but I'm familiar with the book and its premise. It is worthwhile highlighting how both colonialism had local winners and independence movements had native losers. However, the more important question is to tally the net effect from considering the impact on all people, not just select groups. Overall, was colonialism a benefit or harm to the people who were colonized? I don't think you can realistically say it was the former in the case of India.
  14. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    Regarding the gardening analogy - yes Pellaeon's system is harsh, it's management of diversity via oppression from on high. However, it has to be compared to the alternatives.

    The empire of Palpatine, in this gardeners scenario, had a gardener who randomly sprayed weed killer all over the place in order to keep everything else intimidated.

    The Old and New Republics, by contrast, are akin to a gardener without hands. The result is chaos, and not a peaceful chaos at all - since the plants in this garden are from different environments, so essentially you get a series of invasive exotics expanding through the system again and again causing massive disruption and carnage.
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  15. Robimus Force Ghost

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    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Ah, Daala wasn't all bad [face_love]
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    I think what's considered her vilest act will be heavily dependant on the attitudes of the reader.

    Some will say- attacking a completely harmless settlement on Dantooine.

    Some will say- preparing to massacre 3 trillion Coruscanti by ramming her Star Destroyer into their planet.

    And there's probably lots more even before you get to the Legacy/FoTJ era.
  17. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    I wonder how the Empire would have turned out if the Gentis Coup had been successful, considering it was lead by officers that were agaisnt Imperialization and war.
  18. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    As long as we are talking garden analogies, shouldn't we consider the one from the Yoda comic, where the Spehi king was talking about his garden?


    Cause I think it is a pretty good endorsement of the way the Old Republic handled things and why it was so successful so long.
  19. Ordo N-11 Jedi Master

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    Sep 28, 2013
    star 3

    Don't forget, destroying an entire floating city on Mon Cal. How many people live there? 1 million? 5 million? However many it is, that's a lot of innocent civilians to massacre.
  20. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    How could the Empire have changed for the better?


    Just as it actually did. Its evolution to the Fel Empire is very gradual and realistic, but also remarkable and idealistic. I think it's the best innovation of the entire post-ROTJ EU.