PT How could the Jedi have outplayed Palpatine and thwart his plan?

Well I doubt the jedi could do anything once that order 66 was planted into the minds of the stormtroopers Anakin was in a position to kill Palpatine but chose not to the next three movies what have had fans confused on why the emperor lived films are about downfall & redemption.

 

If they had, it will still lead to Darth Maul finding the Jedi and Queen Amidala.

Dooku will force-push the clone troopers out of the way, fry them with his lightning powers, and slice them up with his lightsaber. It isn't presumptious for Yoda to see that he'd risk endangering the clone troopers's lives by bringing them with him (it's the same reason why Qui-Gon and Obi-wan didn't allow Padme and her crew to deal with Darth Maul) which is why Yoda went after Dooku alone.

 

But if the jedi are able to send a ship to take the queen and the rest to safety, they could be gone once Maul gets there. Or Maul now has to deal with 4-5 Jedi instead of two. Also, the TF have in effect declared war on the republic by invading and conquering Naboo. Isn't it important to warn the republic about this? Maybe the TF has plans to attack other worlds.
In AotC Obi-Wan sends a message to warn the republic about Dooku and the TF's plans but he must have known that his transmission could be traced and he might get caught.

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First, Yoda is there so if Dooku wastes his power on the clones, Yoda can take him down. Also this is war, the lives of the clones are already endangered. They are soldiers, this is what they have been bred to do.
Second, stopping Dooku was top priority for Yoda so he could have a bunch of troops just outside, ready to shoot down any ship that tries to leave or simply blast the opening to prevent any ships from leaving.
Third, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan had orders to deal with Maul and they knew that Padme and her crew had other things to deal with. So I don't see it as them not allowing Padme and co to deal with Maul, they just say that they'll handle it. And Padme can go and do her thing. Padme can't spare soldiers to deal with Maul but Yoda could certainly have brought 20-30 clones and a couple of gunships with him.

By for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Give Anakin counseling

 

Yes, but they appeared to track the ship anyway by a Naboo transmission to the ship. At least by contacting the Jedi Temple on a 913 emergency transmission directly to the Temple, not via Republic/Holonet channels, they could have had backup on the way too.

But a combined attack by Jedi and trooper support against Dooku, or a combined attack by Naboo guards and Jedi against Maul, might have had a positive outcome?

Dooku struggled against Yoda. And the troopers could have sealed the entrance or simply entered behind Yoda and fired at and disabled Dooku's vessel. Remember, if Dooku cannot escape Geonosis, the war ends there (at least from the Jedi perspective), so why not take urgent action to apprehend him? There were spare units available. Not every single clone was involved in the main assault. E.g. the Forward command centre - Commander Gree. The gunship that brought Yoda there in the first place had a platoon of troopers under his command.

I mean, Amidala managed to muster troops from a far corner of the field of battle. You are telling me that Master Yoda, the wisest Jedi in the entire Order, and perhaps in Galactic history, who was at the Forward Command Centre/Command HQ, could not gather troops together to accompany him on the transport he requested?

It seems too convenient. Even Obi Wan and Anakin were taking troopers with them. How did those troopers get blasted from the sky? We actually see one or two make it onto the platform before the scene of the gunship getting shot to pieces and the remaining crewman falling to their deaths.

 

Enticing him with some delicious Hostess products ;D

 

That's what I meant as well. I don't see why they can transmit for help in AOTC and send a direct 913 emergency transmission to the Jedi Temple in ROTS, but not contact the Temple in TPM. The Jedi Order could have sent them a ship and additional Jedi protectors. Even if the Jedi and their entourage were not gone by the time Maul got there, Maul would as you say have to deal with multiple Jedi and the Sith reveal themselves too early. That is assuming that the Sith can even trace Jedi transmissions on Jedi frequencies. Obi Wan transmits on what appears to be the Holonet in AOTC. If they used the Jedi beacon, then it is highly unlikely the TF could have intercepted such communications since we have not seen the CIS do this in ROTS. They seem only capable of monitoring Republic/Holonet transmissions.

Exactly. Yoda vs. Dooku, Dooku has to flee. Yoda + clones vs. Dooku? How is Dooku going to beat that? And the clone troopers could merely form a perimeter around the hangar bay or otherwise disable Dooku's ship or its hyperdrive. Then Dooku would find it immensely difficult to escape even if he somehow got lucky and bested Yoda or distracted him as he ended up doing in AOTC.

Stopping Dooku and preventing him from escaping was a top priority for the Jedi and the Republic once the CIS had revealed themselves. This is why Obi Wan seems to tell Anakin if they capture him they can end this war here and now in the gunship. Even Padme managed to muster clone troops on the far corner of the battlefield. Yoda was at the forward command centre with troops directly under his command. Why did he only request a ship for himself and not take reinforcements? Precisely, Yoda could have taken a few platoons, one to guard the entrance, another to disable Dooku's vessel and another to back him up to arrest Dooku.

In the Naboo case from TPM, I think it is because the two groups have different agendas. The Jedi are there to find the mysterious attacker and protect the Queen. The Queen is there to retake her planet. She does not yet know of the hidden hand helping the TF at this point. Otherwise, she would have no doubt had her guards help the Jedi.

However, not sure whether one Jedi should have stayed with the Naboo to protect the Queen if that was their mandate. This again makes one wonder why the Jedi Order did not send more Jedi or take more action. They do not seem to require Senate approval to conduct investigations or dispatch Jedi far and wide at the time of AOTC before Geonosis. After all Obi Wan goes across the Galaxy without constant Senate approval. How is it that the Jedi Order, which was not as overstretched as it was by the time of AOTC, not send more Jedi out at the time of TPM to investigate the reemergence of a lethal enemy? Had more Jedi gone, even separately to conduct their own mission and hence not interfering with whatever was happening between the Naboo and the TF, but merely watching out for Maul, then there would have been more Jedi present.

Stopping Dooku and preventing him from escaping was a top priority for the Jedi and the Republic once the CIS had revealed themselves. This is why Obi Wan seems to tell Anakin if they capture him they can end this war here and now in the gunship. Even Padme managed to muster clone troops on the far corner of the battlefield. Yoda was at the forward command centre with troops directly under his command. Why did he only request a ship for himself and not take reinforcements? Yoda could have taken a few platoons, one to guard the entrance, another to disable Dooku's vessel and another to back him up to arrest Dooku.

If Dooku struggled against just Yoda and had to resort to cowardly tactics of threatening the injured Jedi to distract the Jedi Master, then how would he have fared versus Yoda and clone reinforcements? Dooku would not have been able to attack the clones on his own without Yoda coming to their aid. He wouldn't just stand there and watch Dooku "fry them with his lightning".

The main mission at that point was the prevent the CIS leadership from escaping. Dooku was the movement's key man. Yoda could have had a small taskforce surround the place he sensed Dooku was at.

 

I don't think the Jedi had any options and just had to play the delt hand.

 

Dooku may have already sensed Obi-wan's presence before Obi-wan went back to his ship. He probably sent the geonosian guard to find Obi-wan which is why we see that guard spying on Obi-wan from the rocky mountains so Obi-wan was going to be caught no matter what happens. Also, how can the Jedi warn the Republic about the Trade Federation's invasion of Naboo if they're not suppose to be involved in the first place? Remember, the TPM opening scroll states that Chancellor Valorum sent 2 Jedi to Naboo "secretly" which means that nobody in the senate knows what he did and the Jedi cannot come forward and report what they've witnessed on Naboo without getting Valorum in trouble with the senate. If they do, any evidence they have will become inadmissible and Valorum gets kicked out of office (which already happened in the movie). Lastly, Darth Maul has been trained by PalpSidious, the man who fought 4-5 Jedi singlehandedly and if he can do it, so can Maul.

20-30 clones cannot handle a Sith lord anymore than 20-30 battle droids can handle a Jedi knight no matter who they are, how fully trained they are, or what situation it is. Even if the clones tried to block any passage ways, Dooku will use the force to push the blockade out of the way and when Padme and co. encountered Darth Maul on Naboo, they look spooked. They don't know whether to gun him down or not and that's when Qui-Gon told them that he and Obi-wan will handle Maul.

As I told Samuel, Dooku already sensed Obi-wan's presence long before he was about to make a transmission hence, why the geonosian guard was spying on Obi-wan and why Obi-wan got ambushed by a droideka. In ROTS, most of the Jedi order are being killed off all over the galaxy and neither PalpSidious nor Vadakin are even aware that Obi-wan and Yoda survived to send out that emergency transmission. Lastly, Obi-wan told Queen Amidala to not send transmissions of any kind which means that any transmission can be traced by the Trade Federation (or in this case, Darth Maul). It'll be like planting a tracking device on yourself so that your enemies will find you and as I've said already, Maul can handle multiple Jedi just like his master.

Actually, the Jedi do need Senate approval since Obi-wan always says that that the Jedi's allegiance is to the Republic. If the Jedi don't have permission from the senate to investigate crisis on whichever star system, then they cannot be dispatched to those systems whatsoever which is why in the clone wars cartoon, Obi-wan went to Mandalore alone after Darth Maul and the death watch clan have taken over the planet. It is also why the TPM opening scroll states: "While the congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, Supreme Chancellor Valorum secretly dispatched 2 Jedi Knights, the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, to settle the conflict" which means that both Obi-wan and Qui-Gon aren't suppose to be openly involved in the TF's takeover of Naboo. However, if there is an assassination attempt against certain senators like Padme, the Republic will allow the Jedi free reign to investigate who is behind the attack. As for why the Jedi Order didn't send more Jedi to Naboo to find Darth Maul, it's because they don't believe that he's a Sith lord especially after this exchange:

Qui-Gon: He was trained in the Jedi Arts. My only conclusion can be that it was...a Sith lord.
Ki-Adi Mundi: Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennium.
Mace Windu: I do not believe the Sith could've returned without us knowing it.
Yoda: Ahh...Hard to see, the dark side is.
Mace Windu: We will use all of our resources to unravel this mystery. We will discover the identity of your attacker. May the force be with you.

They only address Maul as an attacker, not a Sith lord which means they don't believe that the Sith are back until Qui-Gon is killed.

I get that stopping Dooku from escaping is the Jedi's top priority but he's still not a mere adversary, he's a Sith lord trained in the Jedi Arts. Even if Dooku cannot handle Yoda, he can still handle the clone troopers the same way a Jedi deals with battle droids. None of the clones can deflect force attacks like Yoda can and any blaster fire they make will be deflected back to them (the same way the Inquisitor deflected Ezra's laser balls while fighting Kanan in Rebels). Using cowardly tactics to threaten the injured Jedi maybe the only way Dooku can get Yoda off of his back but no amount of clones will make any difference against Dooku. He'll take out anyone trying to disable his ship or block his escape and Yoda knew this which is why he went alone.

 

Firstly, TPM proves you wrong, after Qui-Gon saw the Droid armies on the TF ship he said "We must warn and CONTACT Chancellor Valorum." So he clearly wanted to contact Valorum and alert him to what was going on.
Second, in case you missed it, this is now war, the TF have attacked and conquered a republic world. That would take precedent over a supposed breach of proceedure. By your logic, if a cop in our world enters a house without a warrant and finds an armed nuclear bomb there, he wouldn't report it as he didn't have a warrant.
Third, we don't know if Dooku sensed Obi-Wan and we don't know if Obi-Wan knew that Dooku had sensed him. And Obi-Wans thinking is what matters here. He sends a signal, knowing it will be intercepted because the message was important. So in TPM, if the message was important, Qui-Gon could have sent one.
Fourth, about Maul. Maul could fight two jedi but he couldn't beat them so he had to separate them.
And he got himself killed in a rather stupid way so Maul is capable but not nothing super.

One mercenary could handle one jedi knight and even kill one jedi master. The clones are copies of that mercenary. So they could deal with a Sith Lord, esp if they were backed up by a powerfull jedi Master.

First, are the jedi convinced that Dooku is a Sith BEFORE Yoda fights him in the hangar?
They don't say that. There Yoda can see Dooku use Force lightning and feel the dark side in him.
So it seems the film imply that Yoda found out that Dooku was a Sith at that time, not before. So no excuse NOT to bring soldiers.
Second, if Dooku tries to engage the clones, Yoda will take him down, if he concentrates on Yoda, the clones can take him down. This is war and the clones are trained for war so to NOT use them is foolish, esp when stopping Dooku was such a priority.
Third, having atwo or three gunship ready to shoot down any fleeing transports also makes sense.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Nevermind.

 

Taking him out is the best solution but man did that go badly for them. He cut through those Jedi like a cutting through tissue paper.

 

Agreed with all these points. I can't understand this Dooku could have blasted the clones argument. Yoda would not have just stood there and watched. The whole point is going to arrest Dooku with at least one Jedi and a company of clones. In addition have multiple gunships surround the place. Have a squad of clones solely concentrate not on Dooku, but disabling his getaway ship.

If Dooku can't escape, he is in big trouble. Whilst I understand Yoda may not have known Dooku had turned to the dark side yet, he sensed something was wrong, he was at the Forward Command Centre with clones under his direct command, yet goes alone. The top priority was stopping Dooku, yet he does not seem to bring any reinforcements with him.

Even Senator Amidala uses such logic. She rallies troops to get to the hangar. In her case, she found it difficult being on a far corner of the field. But Yoda could have mustered troops instantly. I do not understand why he delayed.

Agreed on Qui Gon. He himself states that they must warn Chancellor Valorum. And the Chancellor sends two ambassadors in TPM officially. It is well known to both the TF and the Naboo. Palpatine gives away as much in his holo transmission to the Queen. The only thing that is secret is the fact that the ambassadors are Jedi. This is not illegal in itself. The Chancellor does not seem to require Senate approval to dispatch Jedi. It is only kept secret so as not to give the TF time to prepare for Jedi negotiations. As Gunray and the other TF official realise, the Jedi are there to force a settlement. They had been preparing for some bureacratic committee which could be dealt with using delaying tactics or even bribery.

The urgency and need to contact both the Chancellor and the Jedi Council seem to dissappear once they land on Tatooine. I do not think that Maul could have taken on more Jedi reinforcements. That is even if Qui Gon and the Naboo had still been on Tatooine. If they had called for help, a Jedi ship could have been dispatched to collect them and whisk them away before anyone found them. After all they were on Tatooine in TPM for days. A ship would not take days to reach them by hyperspace. Time is of the essence.

And it is incorrect to say that all communications could be traced. Republic holonet and CIS transmissions were susceptible to being traced or deencrypted with a lot of effort - we see this in ROTS. But even in ROTS, Jedi emergency transmissions cannot be traced or spied upon as they use a Jedi beacon and direct contact via the Temple provided one is within range or has access to a Jedi transmitter. The 913 transmission was used by Obi Wan in ROTS. Why can it not be utilised in TPM?

 

Also some interesting points:

1. Could the Jedi have taken actual possession of the army in AOTC, so it was an army loyal to the Jedi Order rather than the Republic?
2. What would have happened had Mace Windu not been prevented from killing Palpatine? Would the Jedi have taken over and reformed the system and handed it back or stay in control?
3. Why did Yoda not surround Dooku's hangar in AOTC instead of going alone?!
4. Could the CIS leadership have tried to flee their execution in ROTS?

 

The army was for the Republic. The Jedi also serve the Republic. Being loyal to the Jedi is being loyal to the Republic. The clones' biochip was already in place either way, so it would be irrelevant.

The Jedi were never in control. Had Windu killed Palpatine, the senate would continue to be the central power of the Republic and the senators would have to elect a new Chancellor.

Nobody knows. Perhaps he thought he could handle it or maybe the available ships were limited considering the whole battle taking place.

If they knew they were going to be executed and if they had time to do it, why couldn't they?

 

They state their plan is to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition - likely because they had no idea how far the conspiracy went in the current line of succession.

 

1. True, but could Yoda have maybe just decided this is too dangerous and when arriving on Kamino taken delivery for the Jedi Order? Going by the films canon, the order book was there, but the order had to be given, it wasn't automatic. The clones would still have been loyal to a supreme commander and respect the command chain. If that wasn't a Jedi, then they wouldn't attack unless ordered too, after all they followed and respected orders from Jedi Generals.
2. The Jedi did seem to plan to take over as they discuss in ROTS. Most likely themselves and the GAR which they commanded. The clones followed orders from Jedi Generals and unless given an order by a Supreme Commander would continue to. They would follow the command structure. The Senate's powers had already been given to the Chancellor, so they would in effect have no power unless it was given back by Palpatine or whoever deposed him (the Jedi).
3. Given that the primary objective which Yoda stated in a gunship about not letting Dooku escape, one would have thought that a significant number of gunships and troops + Jedi be directed to that hangar to prevent his escape. Who's more important, Dooku or battledroids? At this point, Yoda's commander states the droid army is already in full retreat??
4. Agreed, if they knew. It would have been funny one of them trying to press the door button or call for backup. But such a clever move by Palpatine to remove the last organization that could stand up to him with an army behind them.
5. Please see my original first OP on page 1 , you know you stuff, would be interested in hearing what you think?

 

It would have been interesting to see this play out - how the Jedi take control and utilize the Grand army to maintain order, how it is viewed by the Senate and separately by the poplace, and how they would have concluded the war. Would a Jedi junta have created a more harmonious and prosperous galaxy?

 

Yoda says it would take them to a 'dark place'. It could have caused a further break-up of the Republic if the populace (as we know already distrusted the Jedi) revolted. Ideally the Jedi would have ruled temporarily as a provisional government with the rest of the Senate until a new election could be held (and as we know they don't take very long). They probably would have signed a peace agreement with the Confederacy promising new negotiations for reform (once the Separatists understood the Sith conspiracy). It is likely however that Sidious's fellow conspirators would have commandeered the Droid Army to continue the war (the ones that didn't want peace).

 

I think the Jedi had to take over the Senate to ensure a transition but also clean up the system again. This was hinted at in the film. They realized that they would have to step in and forcibly remove the Supreme Chancellor, but play it carefully as they would be interfering in politics. I think if they were doing this, then they would have to stay in control to maintain order and control the war effort whilst elections were held. Even then a new Chancellor would have to be elected after the war to involve any systems currently unable to vote due to the CIS.

The Jedi would have had to maintain full control of the GAR though whilst powers were being transferred. It would have been difficult, many would view the Jedi with even more suscipion and might see the whole thing as a coup and even an assasination. Others might use it for political ends, which is why they may have had to keep control rather than hold an immediate ballot in an unstable time.

I think the CIS would be weaker without the leadership of the Sith and also their inside information on the Republic. It is possible they would have held out, but likely they would acquiese with weak military leaders and the Jedi being in command. In a way would the Jedi govern better and stay in control when the poplace wants them to remain rather than have corruption take root again, or would the Jedi be corrupted by power?

 

The Jedi would have essentially taken the role of the executive and the government would have gone into caretaker mode. They would elect a new Chancellor, probably sign an Armistice with the Confederacy and then would have gone on the path to reform. They potentially could have only been in control to oversee the election of a new Chancellor. It would have been dangerous because they don't know what would have happened with the rest of the conspiracy - would the Banking Clan have caused an economic collapse, could Mas Ameeda cause a stir by blaming the Jedi, getting elected and then having to be removed making the Jedi look like the bad guys? It probably would have stabilised as long as the population didn't revolt since the Army would have been on the Jedi's side. Would the Senate believe them once they were given back control about Palpatine and would the Jedi have remained with the Republic is another story?

 

Agreed it would have been difficult. But ultimately the Army would have been under the command of the Jedi and I think they would be able to maintain order and control if not outright take over and rule entirely. The perception of the Jedi as the bad guys would have been hard to stop, given that they have just killed a Chancellor and not everyone knows about the Sith (who are an enemy from long long ago), and some dislike the Jedi or have their own political motives. But if they had refused, the Jedi could have just taken over tbh. It may have been a coup, but they had the power of the Force and the GAR at their side, would people have resisted? Some like the Jedi after all, and it is the Jedi who have sacrificed their lives to save Republic citizens. Some might have turned against them though seeing their beloved Palpatine killed.

Would the Jedi have just decided to rule for the good of the galaxy? I don't think until the war was tied up they could just hand over to anyone, unless it was someone of the persona of Padme or Bail Organa. A weak leader would have looked bad and even encouraged the CIS to fight on. Though with the shroud of the dark side lifted, perhaps the influence of Palpatine in Republic and CIS would have waned and the Jedi power of foresight and diplomacy resolve these issues (which were minor compared to Palpatine remaining in high office which he did and ultimately topple the entire Jedi Order and take over everything).

It would be cool to see a story like that, though it could end up in elements of the Republic calling for Windu's arrest and rebelling against a Jedi Junta or maybe the Jedi Council or Order being corrupted and falling to the dark side?

 

They wouldn't have kept control. They would have shifted it over as quickly as possible.

 

But to just anybody? The Senate was corrupt and hardly sympathetic to the Jedi as a whole. And it was hardly able to manage a war effort or investigate Palpatine since he had control of it?

 

They considered that as a plan, but nothing was decided.

The Jedi serve the senate and the leader of the senate is the Chancellor. If the Jedi were to take an army for themselves, not only it would be against their own values as peacekeepers, but it would go against those they serve (the senate).

That's not a "take over" as in 'ruling over the senate', but to police and secure a safe transition of powers to the new Chancellor.

Again, he probably thought he could handle it. Besides, for all he knew, gunships were already following Dooku.

Here:

The Jedi Council has sessions in the Temple, but they don't stay there every hour. And how would they know about the Sith and them "actively do things"? Only the audience knows that.

Qui-Gon can't contact the Council because every transmission they send could be traced by the Trade Federation and thus giveaway their location. Without an hyperdrive, they could get easily captured. That's explained in the movie.

We don't see as much of the Jedi Order in TPM as we see in AotC. Every Jedi is active, none of them is standing by doing nothing. There are only 10000 of them in the whole galaxy.

What exactly is there to suspect in AotC?

They do, but only when they discover evidence that they previously didn't have.

The GAR has saved their lives more than once during the war. There's nothing to suggest they should be weary of the clones.

Because you, as part of the audience, know what Palpatine was up to. There's no way the Jedi could have such an omniscient view of things.

He could, but so could Anakin.

No.

No. Mace's reasons were valid and proven right.