PT How could the Jedi have outplayed Palpatine and thwart his plan?

Looking at the Sith plan more broadly, over its entire course, at the tactics they used.

The Sith plan was Machiavellian. Other than omniscience, I think the only way to really outplay and thwart such a plan is to out-Machiavelli it. To do the same thing, but better.

This is something the Jedi could never do, it's not their way, and never would be. That's what makes it the perfect plan. The Jedi were never going to lower themselves to scheming and bribing and currying favor, manipulation and deceit. They did the only thing they could do, stick to their ways (imo, they did indeed stick to the Jedi way til near the very end, despite contrary popular opinion). To do what needed to be done to stop the rising darkness, they'd either have to have magic knowledge they didn't and couldn't have...or they needed to get nasty. In that case, they'd be no better than the Sith, and descend into the dark side themselves. The one time they seemed to get into scheming, so late in the game in ROTS with the spy mission and the (justified) plot to take temporary control of the Senate, they messed it up royally, because they really didn't know how to play that kind of game, and Palpatine had a huge head start. The Jedi's actions at that point are nothing more than a Hail Mary.

If they play the Sith's game, they lose. If they don't play the Sith's game, they lose. That's why it's such a great plan. They're doomed, either way, with dangerous, desperate long shots their only chance for salvation.

 

I don't think anyone is like that.

 

Possibly. Agree with some points. But tbh, I prefer the explanations and canon in the actual movies than Clone Wars. I felt like the last season cheapened Order 66 (an order for an army that was totally obedient genetically, not a chip that could be manipulated) and the clone army's origins. The films made it more intriguing.

In terms of warning the rest of the Order after discovering Palpatine, I guess it was down to having to act quickly, but I think Anakin should have been told to inform the rest if he was to stay at the Temple.

Whilst Windu may have had reservations about taking Anakin owing to his fear clouding his judgement, that does make sense, but he should perhaps have had someone else at the Temple calm him. Otherwise he was once again left out, and resentment and division between the Jedi and him would draw him closer to Palpatine. I thought even Windu realized how close he was earlier in the film.

There is an argument for having taken him as then he would have borne witness to Palpatine's resistance rather than walking in after Palpatine was bested and observing what appeared to be an assasination attempt.

 

Brilliant analysis and so true.

Yes I guess you have a point. I guess the Jedi just got outplayed and started the game too late. The thing was that they had the advantage and slowly lost it until crunch time. And then there vision was so clouded they could not see the action that they had to take until too late. Even then, I think they weren't use to fighting in that way - political maneouvering and taking on the Chancellor. Palpatine's plan was sheer brilliance and cunning.

I think they could have used Anakin better - this was Palpatine's trump card even after Windu bested the Sith Lord. Maybe if he had been taken along or at least told to warn the rest of the Council of his discovery. In addition, Palpatine played the system well. Though he did curry favor and used deceit, he still used the politcal system and got himself into the position of Commander in Chief of the GAR. In that sense he was legitimate and the Jedi were attempting a coup d'etat which if failed would give him every excuse and evidence to declare them traitors. His opportunism was incredibly evil, but succeeded.

The thing is the way they got rid of Palpatine wasn't as organized as how Palpatine got rid of the Jedi. He established order, but a better way for Luke would have been to get into the Imperial system and be the heir. Then the Imperial forces would revert to him and he could reestablish the order and republic if he had not been corrupted of course.

Please no Episode 7 spoilers not even the trailer pls!!!

But yes in the Clone Wars, the Jedi forgot about the politics of it all whilst fighting. I think the Council had indeed become complacent of their established position and forgot to at least connect with the public in some way to protect their image and reputation.

 

But the explanation is the same. The modification was done through the chip (which was biological).

Why did Anakin need to be told that?

He's the one who should calm himself. He's an adult, not a boy.

Assuming Palpatine would behave the same way with Anakin there.

 

But in the movies, it is an executive order given directly by the supreme commander in chief who they are unswervingly loyal to. I don't really like the Clone Wars messing around with that. The clones think independently to achieve their given orders as said on Kamino in AOTC. They are totally obedient and follow the command chain. The Chancellor was above their Jedi officers, so they wouldn't hesitate if given a direct legal order which Order 66 was. I think that was cheapened by the tv version. Not to say that CW didn't have many great episodes though. Some were brilliant. But on screen movie canon should take preference.

I think Anakin had to be handled carefully given he was supposedly the Chosen One though Windu and Yoda appeared to be having doubts about the prophecy and indeed neither at the time knew of Anakin and Padme and Palpatine playing on that. So I suppose Windu did not think Anakin would betray him and the Jedi in the final confrontation.

Very good point, Palpatine may have behaved differently, but at least the Jedi would be completely transparent with Anakin and it would be more difficult for Palpatine to twist and misrepresent their actions as something sinister.

 

Listen to the people watching the movie because to us, it was pretty obvious. He was not clouding our judgement!

 

The Jedi could have killed Palpatine, the Jedi could have removed all their inhibitions and seized control, they leave the republic to rot in its own corruption, Anakin could have been less moronic...I think there were lots of possibilities, but save for the last one I don't see a situation where the Jedi could win. They kill Palpatine, it would be treason and they become traitors; they leave the epublic or withhold information from Palpatine, they become traitors; they stayed to fight and swore allegiance, they still got labelled traitors.
I don't see why the Jedi always shoulder the blame for any and every claim of "corruption" and "stupidity" while the rest of the galaxy goes scot-free. I've yet to see people question Padme's stupidity for overlooking Palpatine and voting him into power, or Naboo for not noticing they have an evil villain in their midst for decades. Or even Anakin, who claimed to be closest to him and was remarkably obtuse throughout his manipulations ("Let me tell you a Sith Legend" - Much later in a different scene - "YOU'RE A SITH?!?!").

 

Yes the let me tell you a Sith legend part seemed slightly suspicious! I'm not sure why they couldn't have presented the Jedi as evidence of the Naboo invasion? Qui Gon and Obi Wan witnessed the entire thing and had been dispatched as official ambassadors of the Chancellor, not to mention the fact that the Jedi were respected so wouldn't that have ended the issue of "there is no proof"?

 

Jedi can't take sides in a diplomatic situation I think. As you say, they're respected (then), so using their power to further the cause for one planet might have been contradictory to their stance as neutral ambassadors.

 

I guess they are the peacekeepers, but in this case, providing evidence was merely that Naboo had been invaded. The Jedi were not taking sides, but could easily submit evidence of bearing witness to droids landing on Naboo. After all, Qui Gon said to Obi Wan that they had to "warn the Naboo and contact Chancellor Valorum". They even retrieve the Queen from her droid escort and escort her to Coruscant. Yet when they get back, they cease to be involved? Are they not witness to the TF presence on Naboo and merely have to say yes that is true and that's it? There's a funny HISHE sketch which shows that.

 

I guess, but without more understanding of the political machinations and stuff in the universe I'm not even sure of how to go about the argument. I can't remember the movie with too much detail, but were they undercover or something? Might have also prevented testimony ("What were you doing there in the first place?!")

 

The Jedi were screwed the second Palpatine got elected Chancellor. Everything he does (as Palpatine) is legal (in a dirty politics way) so the Jedi would have to betray their principles to defeat him - which would negate the win. Either way, the Republic would be in tatters and the Order's integrity compromised. Sith win.

 

I think they were official ambassadors to the Chancellor as noted at the beginning of TPM. I mean Obi Wan seemed to provide evidence of a TF/CIS buildup on Geonosis in AOTC which resulted in a debate in the Senate on a GAR and the emergency powers to Palpatine.

It doesn't seem consistent?

 

Unless the Jedi also got involved in the system/politics and beat Palpatine at his own game. They leave it too late, till the system is completely controlled by Palpatine.

 

I think it was too late by then. The Jedi had their chance when Anakin was a boy.

Perhaps this was all that the Force had intended in order to bring balance.

 

If the Jedi were called to testify, surely they would have. No one called them to testify, and they weren't about to reveal (unnecessarily) that they had just undergone a secret mission that was not approved of by the Senate. Queen Amidala was young and naive, she wasn't expecting things to go the way they did when she spoke at the Senate. She believed that the Chancellor, being her biggest supporter and knowing the truth (that he heard from the Jedi) would surely not let Naboo get brushed aside. However, that is exactly what happened, and before Amidala realizes it, her motion is pushed aside into a committee. It was up to her to bring the evidence and witnesses to the Senate. She obviously didn't feel she needed the Jedi there to bare witness.

Even if she had, it wouldn't have done any good, the Jedi couldn't have changed the political process of pushing those kind of accusations into committees. That is what was wrong with the Republic, the failure to react appropriately, and unending debate.

 

They could have outsmarted Palpatine by not approving to adopt the clone army which had been mysteriously created without their knowledge or authority of the Jedi or Galactic Senate. If they destroyed it, there would have been no army to start the Clone Wars with.

Palpatine could not get emergency powers for the conflict and keep changing the constitution or extend his term. He would have to give up his power without the conflict.

 

Are you suggesting the Jedi "nullify" the Clones - kill them? (your "if they destroyed it"...)

 

Meanwhile, the Republic would be invaded by the Separatists and tyranny would spread throughout it. In other words, they would've failed to uphold their mandate and Sidious would rule either way.

Using the clone army was a necessity.

 

Even if the jedi did decide to not lead the clones so would the Republic still use them, possibly an a much more wasteful way, and the jedi would be called, if not out right declared, traitors who abounded the Republic and all its citizens.

 

I find the use of clones disgusting and inhumane. The Jedi should have been against them. If the Republic wanted a military so much why not defend themselves instead of clones doing it? Ordinary citizens could have enlisted in a military and fought their own war. I don't believe in the ends justify the means thing.
(Don't wish to argue, just want to say my two cents)

 

Well said, SN!