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PT How could the Jedi have outplayed Palpatine and thwart his plan?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DarthTalonx, Nov 12, 2014.

  1. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2001
    That is nice and all, but you can't just raise an army on a whim. The Seperatists had a huge droid army that was ready to fight, the Republic had pretty much nothing. The clones had been in military training their entire life, they had the skill and the equipment to take on the droids, while training and equiping ordinary citizens would have taken a very long time - which the Republic didn't have - and led to bad losses both in terms of space and manpower while the army wouldn't have been quite ready. Sure, they could have refused the army, but it was "apparently" created by a Jedi to "protect the Republic". You cannot refuse to use something just because it might not be 100% ideal, only to lose everything you swore to protect. That is like refusing to cut off a finger, thus causing the whole body to die. Using the clones may perhaps be inhumane, but letting the Republic fall into the hands of tyrants is a whole lot worse than that, as it is inhumane to both the citizens of the Republic and the clones (which already exist anyway, thus not using them makes things worse for the ordinary citizens and the clones).

    Now, later on things might be a bit different. Once you have made sure you won't get overrun, you might actually be able to train troops normally. This might be the sensible thing to do, but the clones already had the advantage of being a relatively cohesive group of ideal soldiers that was a whole lot easier to lead than a bunch of completely different people. Just take a look at how difficult it is for nations usign different languages to fight alongside each other. Heck, even nations using the same languages have problems with that. Now increase that problem tenfold by using all the different species in the SW-universe.
     
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  2. redlightning

    redlightning Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2014
    They could have easily had the clone army destroyed and created a conscripted army to battle the droids. It could have simply been like the stormtrooper ranks for the Empire.

    Although if Palpatine were smart he would simply have created the army, invaded the Republic with it, and used it to conquer from the outside with greater ease than all that he did.
     
  3. Gamiel

    Gamiel Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    How do you suggest they would do that?
     
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  4. redlightning

    redlightning Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 1, 2014
    Mass termination through chips or a humane tactic like lethal injection for the billions they cloned. They are property of the Republic after all now people.
     
  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    If the Jedi had killed billions of clones in AOTC, who hadn't yet done anything, I think even anakinfansince1983 would have said "yes, the Jedi do deserve to die"
     
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  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I'd actually say "Who in the actual **** wrote the Jedi so out of character that they are unrecognizable?"

    But IU your comment would make sense.
     
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  7. hairymuggle

    hairymuggle Jedi Knight star 2

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    Apr 28, 2014
    Let's not give TCW/Rebels team any ideas....
     
  8. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I was going to add that a scenario in which the Jedi euthanized the clones in AOTC would actually make TCW character assassination of the Jedi look tame, but you covered it.
     
  9. The Sith Camp

    The Sith Camp Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2015

    Well if you think about it - then again the time of Palpatine - he was then the current generation of the Baneite Sith - the Phantom Menaces - and the lineage of Darth Bane - and I mean unless you're expecting a massive horde of thousands and thousands of arrogant, violent and angry Massassi/Sith Hybrid warriors of the Ancient Sith times on Korriban and a DIRECT BATTLE with the Republic ... compared to simply just the 'always two there was ... no more ... no less' set by Darth Bane as the Sith Grand Scheme of 1000 years and the fact the Sith were 'adapting for 1000 years' and well face it - they weren't meant to make their presence known ... given how Darth Plagueis remarked that he and Palpatine are 'architects of the future - not animals nor butchers!' unlike Ancient Sith Lords - well some whom were like that and mob-mentality minded and violent and selfish (well even by Sith standards)

    Plus the fact how Darth Plagueis one way or another did train Palpatine to a high standard and he surely would have had back-up plans in a sense ... although IF Anakin was killed or really screwed up he may have had a fairly severe setback ...

    As with Master Yoda killing Palpatine? Well - its up to him to restore the Jedi Order and bring Peace back to the 'potential Chaos!'

    On a side note - odd how Mace Windu may not have been able to apply Tutaminis when subject to a full raw barrage of Sith Lightning eh? Plus well - Palpatine is practically probably the only one who was BEYOND HELP and REDEMPTION considering at 17 he already murdered House Palpatine in COLD COLD BLOOD ...
     
  10. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Well, unfortunately, the existence of the OT forced certain events in the PT. Biggest reason, IMHO. But to your points:

    1. In TPM, why do the Jedi do nothing about Naboo? They can't just show up at the Senate and go, "hey, guys and gals, we got us some video of the TF being meanies." The Senate has to call witnesses, and it is made clear in the movie itself that any action was to be deferred to a committee to examine if Padme's charge against the TF was valid. Why can't Qui Gon contact the Council like how Obi Wan does from Kamino in AOTC when they are on Tatooine? All communications were blocked...presumably the Jedi's comlinks (their ship was destroyed) didn't have the reach, hence the Jedi wanting to go down to the planet.

    2. In AOTC, how come the Jedi Order seems to take a more active role in investigating suspicious activity, whereas in TPM they don't? Your full question seems to be why doesn't Yoda pull several clone companies to accompany him when he follows Obi-Wan and Anakin. Overconfidence? Not sure what trouble the 2 Jedi are in, so doesn't want to pull resources? (As for TPM, the movie ended right after the battle for Naboo - I would presume any investigation would follow the movie's end.)

    3. Between AOTC and ROTS, do they not investigate how the Clone Army came into being and who it ultimately answers to? Presumably: we do not see what they did. Many are convinced they sat on their hands; many are not. Presumably the investigation is ongoing and so far without success (though one EU book showed them closing in).
    .
    4. In ROTS, why do the Jedi play into Palpatine's hands and sideline Anakin completely? Presumably if the OT hadn't already been made... Because Mace hurried into action with the attitude the best defense is a good offense. (It would be better for Yoda, Mace and Obi Wan guide him to becoming a Master by taking him with them on missions and instructing him on patience and letting go.) Presumably, that was part of all of Anakin's missions with Obi-Wan up to this point and it hadn't worked.

    5. Could Mace have informed the rest of the Order, or at least the rest of the Jedi Council, or anyone for that matter that Palpatine was the Sith Lord? You got me there: I agree.

    6. Wouldn't it have been better to take Anakin with the arrest team? In hindsight, indeed, yes. Although I'm not sure it would have made any difference. If Palps had murdered the Jedi posse as in the movie, and Anakin witnessed it, would it have caused Anakin to question anything Palps said? It may have played out much the same.
     
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  11. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Yes the clones were a highly disciplined and totally obedient force (owing to them being genetically created creatures). In a sense they were as loyal as battle droids as it was coded in the genes. They were unswervingly loyal and sound like the perfect creation for the future Imperial army tbh. The only difference is that they can think more creatively to achieve their orders or objectives unlike the droids. They cannot however, willfully choose or think how to disobey orders. The clones were loyal to their Jedi Generals throughout the war, but ultimately their allegiance (as determined by their training) was to the Commander in Chief of the Republic (the highest authority in the command chain) and so they simply regarded Order 66 as another order to carry out, which they did.

    It would be cool if they had kept the majority of the Imperial army as Clones. Maybe different templates, but this would explain the absolute loyalty to the Emperor (the commander in chief). Imperial Academies would recruit the best from around the galaxy and train them to be officers who would replace the Jedi Generals as Imperial Officers and also to train Imperial Navy officers and starship captains. There is a great scene at the end of AOTC which hints at how the clone troopers become the Imperial army at the assembly area.

    I think the clones were produced by the Kaminoan creators as such: Growth acceleration to grow an adult (18 to twenties) clone in half the time (9 to 12 years). Notice in ROTS, some of the clones are younger than others, probably owing to the need to get as many on the frontlines as quickly as possible, so they were rushed out when of age. A combination of flash training and then physical programs and leadership skills to the selected few commanders. On top of this, strict discipline was enforced. Part of this was genetic - in AOTC, it is mentioned that they are genetically modified to be totally obedient individuals. In a sense they are battle droids, but are able to think creatively how to achieve the given objective or order. They do not however think independently to disobey an order. They do not have that free will. Those clones that did, were either terminated during the training program or a small number were separated and brought up as ARC commanders or Clone Commandos. In addition, the Clone Troopers growth acceleration was intact, or at least according to Star Wars The Rise of Darth Vader. Palpatine notes to an audience that the existing troopers in the Imperial army are aging at their rate. They would eventually be removed from service and I guess they would pass away.

    That is why to maintain strength during the Clone Wars, constantly units (probably millions in each) were being cloned and produced for the GAR. Over time, some would age and pass away if they did not die on the battlefront and they would be replaced by newer clones. I guess they needed more and more troops, so they relaxed the rules on what age they start putting them on the battlefield. That scene in ROTS before Obi Wan departs shows clones of differing ages.

    I would prefer if the Imperial army was primarily clones as well as that would be the ultimate power of Palpatine (as he had at the end of the Clone Wars so few would challenge him). The unswerving loyalty of the majority of the army as they were clone troopers. Granted the clones may not be from the same template, but most troopers might be clones. The Imperial Academies would train and promote regular people across the galaxy to fill the ranks of officers of Stormtrooper units to lead their mean (replacing Jedi Generals) as well as starship captains and the Imperial Navy. Though it seems they went down the recruitment path, but that could be it was hard to cast for similar actors to put in Stormtrooper uniforms and lack of CGI.
     
  12. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    1. But the Jedi (Qui Gon and Obi Wan) were dispatched as official ambassadors of the Chancellor. This was known by both the TF at the start of the film as well as the Naboo. It wasn't a secret. Could they not have been witnesses to the TF action? There is a funny HISHE clip showing this and that makes sense!! I mean the fact they were Jedi would add weight to the testimony as well. In terms of the communication, maybe your point about them being out of range is correct. Otherwise, there seems to be no reason the Jedi cannot use their own communication device which appears to be a separate secure frequency (e.g. the 913 distress Obi Wan sends in ROTS is not monitored by either the CIS or general Republic Holonet, instead using the Jedi Temple's own beacon).

    2. It's just that the Jedi appear to have their hands more overstretched in AOTC, yet investigate the attack on Padme and the Council has regular discussions with the Republic hierachy on how to deal with the crisis. In TPM, the Jedi appear to be far less busy, but don't really focus resources on the most difficult crisis of Naboo except to send two Jedi. Even when the said Jedi return back to Coruscant, after having encountered difficulty with the TF, they still only send the same two back with no more backup. In terms of Yoda's actions in AOTC, they don't really make sense. In the gunship after rescuing the Jedi from the arena, he clearly states that "Allowed to escape Dooku must not, or rally more systems to his call he will", displaying the critical importance of capturing or killing Dooku. When Yoda senses that Obi Wan and Anakin are in trouble, he is at the Forward Command Centre where there are still clones available. He is told by his Commander that the droid army is also in full retreat. Yet he chooses not to take any backup? It would have been cool to see him take clones and Dooku's first force attack is repelled by Yoda, but cuts off the clone backup who then start to cut through the rock. These clones are finally able to break through when Padme arrives.

    3. I agree. I guess this must be the case, though I wonder whether the Jedi realized that the clones would then be loyal to the commander in chief when they were told of Palpatine's identity. Should it not have been a priority to legally take on that role to control the GAR or to ensure Palpatine could no longer give orders?

    4. Agreed on Mace, time was of the essence. But, even a passing Padawan or Anakin could be told to immediately contact the rest of the Council to inform them of this startling revelation. As it was, no one knew. Even if Jedi survived Order 66, they were none the wiser of the information. And if Mace chose to go, could Anakin not have been taken thus trumping Palpatine's political game by being transparent? In the end Palpatine, though bested, was a master opportunist and quickly upon seeing Anakin arrive, portrayed it as an assasination.

    5. Agreed. A message should have been ordered to be sent to the rest of the Jedi Council. Maybe not Senators at this point, since you don't know who you can trust and the Jedi have no choice but to take over.

    6. It would have been harder for Palpatine to do that though, since at that point, Anakin would probably see Palpatine for who he was, rather than some helpless victim. You see that he did seem to regret what happened to Windu and did not expect that Palpatine would do that.
     
  13. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005
    The Republic ship was destroyed, hence the two Jedi wishing to get down to Naboo to contact the Council - they had just lost their communications. Approx at this same time, Palps faded out while speaking to the Queen; the communications on Naboo were disrupted.

    When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan rescued the Queen's party, Qui-Gon stated he needed to contact (whomever, Council or the Chancellor, I don't remember) and Sio Bibble told him all communications were knocked out.

    The only possible means of communication was the Naboo ship when they were busy trying to escape: they may have been too focused on escape then and perhaps communications were knocked out/affected when the shield generator was harmed. Remember, Artoo only partially restored it, allowing them to escape but not to get to Coruscant.

    We are not given any hint if the Jedi had comlinks that could reach the Council (or be hacked) on Tatooine, and they were afraid a link would be traced if they used the ship - okay, I guess I just shot down the ships communication might have been out and they did receive a communication.

    Again, as to testifying, it could be that 100% of the Senators knew about the Jedi. The issue is that a motion was made and accepted to defer to a committee. Presumably, if it followed the American style, the committee would first be appointed, an agenda argued over, a list of witnesses drawn up, and the hearing would commence. What did happen was Valorum was given a vote of no confidence, candidates came forward and a new Chancellor was selected, presumably over the course of a few days.

    The committee, presumably, never sat as events overtook everyone.

    We agree that Mace made a mistake in not passing word to the rest of the Council - presumably he figured since he brought 1/2 the Council with him, he had a quorum. He greatly errored.
     
  14. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Agreed on Windu, but what of point 1 about Qui Gon and Obi Wan appearing with the Naboo delegation as their witness (since Padme was used by Palpatine in that kinda way).

    What of point 2, especially Yoda taking clones to the hangar?
     
  15. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005
    Point 1: Even if the 2 Jedi were with Padme, they wouldn't have been allowed to testify at that time. I don't see that as a pertinent plot point.

    Point 2: I don't have answers to everything. I don't remember if Yoda was reacting more to Obi-Wan's and Anakin's argument or not - at the time he left, did he even realize the two were after Dooku? Obi-Wan had already told Anakin the two of them could handle it, so I rather doubt - but do not or do not remember - what Yoda's knowledge was or when he acquired it.
     
  16. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    It's just that Yoda seemed to sense what had happened and requested a ship from his Clone Commander. But didn't go with a gunship full of troopers to arrest someone who he had described earlier as one they could not permit to escape?
     
  17. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005
    From what I remember (could be wrong) he sensed the argument (Anakin wanting to divert to save Padme) and Obi-Wan wanting to go on (to capture Dooku). I'm not sure he had any idea beyond that.
     
  18. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2013
    There was very little that the Jedi could have done that wouldn't have come across as looking like treason to the eyes of the Republic. He had military and political control of the Galaxy, which put the Jedi in a real bind. Outright arresting Palpatine and holding him captive or killing him as the Jedi planned to do, while strategically the best plan, would have also looked bad on the surface. The majority of the Galaxy only saw a humble, elderly, beloved Chancellor, and at the end of the Clone Wars, the savior of the Galaxy. Most people who weren't Jedi could not have sensed that Palpatine was anything more than a simple human.
     
  19. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014

    Heck, even the Jedi couldn't sense who he really was. It took Anakin telling them, and that was what Palpatine was counting on.
     
  20. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Actually you make a point yes. But nevertheless, why did Yoda choose to go alone? He was at the forward command centre where there were clones with him. The droid army was in full retreat (as told to him by his own clone commander). I understand that Yoda is extremely powerful, but in his own words, Dooku could not be allowed to escape, why take the chance?

    Absolutely true. Palpatine had a very very clever plan. His legal control was the trump card. What could Windu have done? Should he have taken Anakin then, or at least instructed anyone to inform the rest of the Jedi Council? As it was, it seemed that most Jedi, even those who survived, were unaware of Palpatine's true identity.

    Should Windu have told someone to inform the rest of the Council? Should he have taken Anakin with him?
     
  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the ROTS novelization, he tells Yoda.
     
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  22. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    Yes good point. Only problem is that makes it look worse. Because then would they not inform the rest of the Council? It seems that even in the novel, most Jedi are completely unaware of the discovery, and certainly in the follow up Rise of Darth Vader novel, Order 66 survivors don't know what just happened.
     
  23. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    In the newcanon Kanan comic, Depa (who was on the Council in the newcanon novel Dark Disciple) is pretty shocked by the clones turning on them - and there's no hints of her having just been told that Palpatine is about to be arrested.

    The Council may be mostly in the field, and not as easily contacted as Yoda (who wasn't actually in the front line the way several other Masters were).

    The aforesaid novelization suggests that Yoda has gone to Kashyyyk specifically to bait the Sith Lord into the open by not being there - his hope is that with only Mace there, and the war nearly over, the Sith will reveal themselves.
     
  24. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005
    Which, of course, Iron_lord, is what happened (Sith lured into the open).

    To dARTh Talonx, since we the audience know that Anakin IS the Chosen One foreseen to destroy the Sith (presumably so, in order to bring Balance), Mace should have brought Anakin, yes. I suspect that is the answer you've been fishing for here as you've brought it up repeatedly. Same with the Council et al - yes, he should have. In universe Mace made a horrible mistake.

    In universe, Mace had to make decisions that would not affect the OT, and so many decisions are not the best ones.

    As to Yoda bringing clones with him, EVEN if he did not believe Dooku was fleeing the battle, I'm sure what would have happened was that Dooku would have had a far larger escort which would have taken out the clones, leading to the exact same outcome.
     
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  25. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    Deepa Billaboppa?