CT How did Leia remember her mother at all?

that is my answer.

 

That Yoda mentions to Luke that one can see the Past and future? Did I miss the scene when Leia says she saw her mother through force visions?

I'm not sure why people still argue this. It's a plot hole. It happens. It happened here.

 

not everything needs to be stated explicitly.

 

So you're liberally applying a position that both cannot be proven and has evidence in ROTJ that contradicts your argument.

 

As far as I understand, the OT, the PT, and TCW are the "immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align."

So as far as I'm concerned, the new canon can never be considered to be on the same level as the movies.

 

goodbye.

 

Yeah, that's my understanding as well, but from what I've read, it doesn't seem like the new EU will be protected in the same way, so one day someone may decide to throw it all in the trash can and start over again.

 

I said if. You know, a hypothetical.

The hell it is. I want an actual reason from you.

And the bias returns. All characters in the show were promoted. Ahsoka is no different from any other character. How is it at the expense of the story?

"Outbound Flight" was always about what happened to C'Boath and the people aboard it. It was that way before the PT came about, when Zahn first started telling the tale. He included Obi-wan and Anakin because it was tying into the PT era and was a nice wink and a nod towards his clone's relationship to Luke in the post ROTJ era. With regards to "The Clone Wars", the show was set up on the heels of "Clone Wars" which focused on not just Obi-wan and Anakin's adventures, but on those of the other Jedi and the Clonetroopers. The second show was mostly focused on Anakin, Obi-wan and Ahsoka, but also on the other Jedi, the senators and the Clonetroopers and Bounty Hunters. Having episodes that focused on Ahsoka, was no different from the EU stories that did the same thing. Like Barriss Offee in "MedStar", Mace Windu in "Shatterpoint", Omega Squad in the "Republic Commando" books, Yoda in "Dark Rendezvous" and Quinlan Vos in most of the "Republic" comics from Dark Horse. Which is no different from Luke and Mara in "Survivor's Quest", Han and Leia in "Tatooine Ghost", Wedge Antilles in the "Rogue Squadron" series and Corran Horn in "I, Jedi" as well as the "Rogue Squadron" books.

Luke says real mother. They both know that Leia was adopted, even before finding out that they were related. Leia remembers Breha Organa quite well and she doesn't fit the description. Not to mention that Lucas himself said that he wanted at least one of them to remember their mother. In the second and third drafts of ANH, Luke's mother was referred to and already dead by the time he leaves the farm to start on his journey. Lucas dropped those references in the fourth draft, but wanted to revisit it in ROTJ.

First off, Anakin had visions of the future without any Jedi training, which is not a requirement in one having visions. This was established in TPM when Anakin mentions his dream of being a Jedi and coming back to free the slaves. The novelization depicts this sequence in the chapter where Anakin takes Threepio with him to the Jawa Sandcrawler to pick up some supplies and winds up with the Nubian hyperdrive unit. On his way back, he stops to help an injured Tusken Raider. Since it was late, he opted to spend the night where he was and while asleep, he foresaw himself as a Jedi coming back to free the slaves. He sees his mother and when he goes to embrace her, she disappears. Then he sees Tusken Raiders surrounding him, which results in his waking up to see the same thing. The Tuskens take off with their wayward charge and Anakin opts to return home. Later on, the morning of the Boonta Eve, Anakin has another dream. This time of Padme leading a huge army into battle. This was also a deleted scene in TPM.

I'm not arguing that the Force gives the visions. Rather, they are the result of what happens when Force sensitives let go of their conscious minds, which seems to happen while asleep or meditating. Luke is meditating when he has his. Ezra is trying block blaster bolts with his Lightsaber and had reached a point where he saw one. Anakin had his while asleep. Ahsoka was asleep as well when they began. My point is that not every Jedi will have one, regardless of emotional connections or not. They are designed to be random and not because Lucas is a poor storyteller, but because that was how he designed it in the first place. Filoni and the EU authors followed suit.

He might have seen Lando and not realized who he was.

Leia doesn't know she's a Jedi. She assumes that what she has are memories, but in reality, they're most likely the result of visions. Yoda states in TESB that a Jedi can see the future and the past. TPM establishes that visions can come while one is asleep.

 

Her remembering her mother through force visions is speculative at best

 

Of course, but also the most likely answer given what's established in-universe.

 

I want an actual reason that he has to have it. Not "just because", which is all "rational and logical" says to me. Give me a reason that it is necessary that he has to have a vision of his mother. Why does it have to be a plot point that he has to have a memory/vision? On top of which I have repeatedly shown that not every Jedi has the same set of visions that someone else does. Hell, we've discussed that about the Sith. Palpatine says that he has foreseen Luke's turn and the destruction of the Alliance, while we know that wasn't true. And the Jedi had seen Luke becoming a Jedi once he has confronted Vader. The Priestesses know that Yoda will train Luke and that he will help save everyone, but the Sith didn't see that. Palpatine doesn't even see Luke as a threat until he's gone to Dagobah.

The whole point of the conversation is that Luke is about to drop some knowledge on Leia about who she is and what he's going to go do, as well as coming to the realization that he doesn't even remember her at all.

 

I've said it before in these "Leia memory" discussions and I'll say it again: the amount of mental gymnastics the audience/fans have to do in order to attempt to make this inconsistency make sense is the exact reason why it's a plot hole. If the story is told right, it shouldn't take so much work. And if Lucas had indeed properly done his job in setting up an explanation for all this, well, then, it wouldn't be such a controversy would it?

How many times has this question been brought up? A lot. Why? Because most people don't get it. Why don't they get it? Because it doesn't make sense.

I love you, SW. But I can still call "plot hole" when I see one.

 

Logic and rational ARE actual reasons.
If you don't want to accept them, that is up to you.

Ex. person A is very tall and you say "Person A eats lots of vegetables and that is why he is tall. Vegetables makes you tall." But then I say "But person B also eats lots of vegetables but he is short. So why isn't person B tall when he eats as much vegetables as person A?" You then say "Oh just because he eats lots of vegetables is no reason why he should be tall."

You see?
You argue "Leia has force visions because of X." But then you turn around and say X is no reason for Luke to get force visions.
You give reasons why Leia has visions but at the same time argue that those very reasons that work for Leia have no reason at all to work for Luke.
So your reasoning isn't consistent. You apply one set of rules for Leia and then ignore them for Luke.

This didn't actually happen so not any proof of Force visons, it could just be Anakin daydreaming.

And all Force users that we know had these visions refer to them as dreams or visions, NOT memories. So there is no established precedent of the Force giving you memories of things.
The Jedi wouldn't need to train, they could juts wait and get visions of another Jedi's training and they would know all they need to know.

Also, Luke was to be kept in the dark about his father. Why bother when he could at any time have a vision that showed him who his father really was? And how could Luke and Leia ever be hidden?
Anakin could get a vision about them and know they were alive.

I highly doubt this.
If Jedi get visions of people in pain, even people they don't know or have never met. How could they ever sleep? They would get bombarded by visions all the time and would probably go mad.
Obi-Wan felt something when Aledraan was destroyed. But that was billions dying.
For the Jedi to sense every death and all the pain in the galaxy would be torment.

[/QUOTE]

And here it is again. You use logic and rational thinking to extrapolate how the Force works.
You use what Yoda said in ESB etc. All in an attempt to prove that Leia got her memories" through the Force. But then you say that the logic your are using are not in any way applicable to Luke and want to know why the reasons you used for Leia should apply to him.

Don't see what a double standard you are using and how inconsistent your argument is?

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Because you're not giving me a reason why it is necessary other than just spouting logic. It's like when Judge Judy says, "Um is not an answer." It isn't.

Then by that rational, every Jedi should have the same visions of the past or future and there is evidence that shows this is not true. That is what you don't get. This isn't making up rules arbitrarily. Force visions are random. They've always been random and they will always be random. What one gets doesn't necessarily mean that the other has to have it.

Be serious. Anakin had dreams of the future as a boy without Jedi training. He came back to Tatooine as a Jedi to free his mother and his mother died from injuries inflicted by Tusken Raiders. Very similar to what he foresaw. There's a reason that Terry Brooks wrote that descriptive a scene in the novelization.

Leia doesn't know that she's a Force user until Luke tells her that she is one. She thinks that they are memories that are images and feelings.

They still need to be able to use the Force beyond visions. That takes actual time and training. Visions are often of the future, showing something that will happen like war, or death. Visions of the past generally show things that a Jedi didn't know about.

That was always a risk, but one that the Jedi were willing to take. Luke might have had a vision of Anakin, but not necessarily of him being put in the suit.

They don't always have visions. They come at random. We've seen that throughout. Though there might have been Jedi who were far too sensitive that kept having visions and went mad. If Luke saw Lando alongside Han and Leia being tortured, then that just means that he saw him there and saw him being choked by Vader. Or he saw Lando in the carbonite chamber while Luke sees Leia's suffering at Han's predicament.

Obi-wan felt Alderaan because it was one massive burst of fear that caused a massive disturbance in the Force. A violation of life that all Jedi would have felt. Yoda, Ezra, Kanan and Ahsoka would have felt it. Same with the Inquisitors. We already know from the teaser trailer for TFA that someone strong in the Force feels an awakening in the Force that affected both sides of the Force. When Ahsoka had her first vision, this is what Yoda said.

YODA: "Troubled you are, Padawan?"

AHSOKA: "Yes, Master Yoda. I've been having dreams."

YODA: "Dreams, you say?"

AHSOKA: "Yes, dreams. Or visions. I don't know. But they're so real."

YODA: "Premonitions. Telling you something they are."

AHSOKA: "I know I reported otherwise, but I believe that Aurra Sing isn't dead. She's still alive, and she's preparing to kill someone close to me."

YODA: "So you begin to see the true power of the Force. Visions they are. Underestimate them, you must not. Meditate to see clearly. More experience you need."

So this isn't that uncommon.

No, because it isn't a requirement that every Jedi has the exact same vision. I didn't say it wasn't applicable to Luke. I'm saying that it doesn't work that way. Even before Lucas changed how their mother died, it was established that not every Jedi had the same visions. What each Jedi and Sith gains are random. It's not a universal turn on the television and watching the same channel. One person has access to one channel, someone else will have another and a third will never see either channel.

Even if Lucas had planned it their mother's death in advance of the PT, well before, that doesn't mean that Luke would have the same vision. Again, Yoda cannot see their fate. Just like Obi-wan couldn't see Qui-gon dying on their trip back to Naboo.

 

But these aren't memories, which is what I keep telling you. They're glimpses into the past through the Force, which is not the same as a memory. Leia thinks that they are memories because she is not trained in the Jedi Arts.

Why it is an issue that Force visions are random? Why is it an issue that one Jedi has a vision and not another? That's like asking why does a tornado hit this house and miss the next one. There is no answer. It is nature and it is random. The Force is nature and it is random. As I've said, from the start, the visions were established as random. Otherwise, Yoda and Obi-wan would have seen what Luke saw. And mind you this is with Kasdan and Kershner involved. Yoda would have said, "See what you see, I do."

There was never a hard and fast rule that said that visions are only for those with personal connections and that everyone has to have one.

 

I'm just trying to understand why it is important that he has a vision of the past. That's all. Because nothing you've said so far sounds like an actual reason other than you want him to have one. Why it is necessary that he has one? Give me a real answer and not because logic. That's not an answer. Why does it rain? Logic. That's not an answer. An answer to why does it rain is to describe the whole process of rainfall. I'm not asking you to change. I'm asking you to explain it beyond logic. If you can't do that, then no one can discuss it.

You say logic. Well, logic dictates that all Jedi can see the future and the past as Yoda instructs Luke. Fair enough. Where does logic say that they have to have the same vision? Where does logic say that that the Force cannot be random?