CT How did Leia remember her mother at all?

I still say that THIS is the most logical answer to this question, 2 minutes and 28 seconds into the video is the most logical answer, to me. She was a person of some prominence. There WERE pictures of her, moving pictures at that! From that, one could deduce things such as she is very beautiful and very sad. Especially any pictures of her as Queen Amidala.

 

well it is said that girls mature quicker than boys,

perhaps the force matures faster in females than it does in new born males

seriously

I honestly don't see this as a plot hole. More of an interesting detail. The force works differently in different people.

Wasn't it Agen Kola in the ROTS novel that was a master at telepathy? perhaps it's the same with Leia.

Honestly out of all supposed plot holes in the saga, there are numerous ways to bypass this particular one.

 

I do think it incredible how many act like the Force must manifest the same in everybody. Why? For me Sensitivity is in the vein of Talents and no one is wholly alike.

 

exactly my thinking CA.

Say it was Leia out in the desert with Ben instead of Luke, she might have had images and feelings of her Aunt and Uncle being blown up before she actually got there to witness it. We just don't know.

 

sexism? seriously?

 

Ummm... I assume this is relating to the statement about girls maturing faster than boys? As far as I know they do on average, but it's probably in the best interests of the thread to leave the gender issues right here.

 

Anakinfan: ok well....no comment what-so-ever to the first bit of your post, so moving on to your next points:

there is an indication, sort of...ESB when Luke is calling out to her when escaping Bespin. Loose example I know, but far from "no indication"

but you see, you only choose to see this as a plot hole, I can think of a number of reasons why the scene works, you can't...so fair enough,.

 

Agreed.

"The story changed a bit as we went along. Some parts don't quite gel together as well as they could, but just go with it."

I'd be happy with something like that.

 

@darth-sinister

Force Visions are NOT random, the films show a quite clear pattern in how they work.

Luke gets visions of Han and Leia, they are people he knows and are close to.
Anakin gets visions of Shmi and then Padme, again two people he knows and is very close to.

Vader wanted to capture the MF badly and once he did, he started to torture Han and maybe Leia.
He did this KNOWING that Luke would sense it and come to him. Yoda and Obi-Wan also realize this.
So the films are very clear, a Force user will sense pain and suffering from those he/she is close to or get visions about it.
Vader exploited this by hurting Han and Leia. He would only do this if he knew that Luke would sense it.
This also would explain why the Jedi want to take in potential Jedi so young, before they have any ties with their parents. Because if they know their parents and still care about them, if something were to happen to them, they could get visions and be messed up.
So the films prove you wrong.

Luke did NOT get a vision of Cpt Needa dying. Why? Because he didn't know him.
Luke also didn't get a force vision of Owen and Beru dying. Why? Because he wasn't trained yet.
Luke didn't sense the destruction of Alderaan but Obi-Wan did. Why? Again Luke wasn't trained.

So the films are quite clear, closeness is a factor in who gets force visions and of what.
So all Jedi would not get the same visions because they are not close to the same people.
Obi-Wan never met Shmi and thus he gets no visions of her in pain. Obi-Wan knows Padme but isn't as close to her and Anakin is, again this explains why he doesn't get visions of her dying.

Training is likewise a factor, Obi-Wan senses the destruction of Alderaan, Luke does not. Reason? One is trained, the other is not. Luke is strong in the Force but that is not enough.

As for Anakin's "Dream" in TPM, that didn't happen so not proof of anything and don't bother with the novel or other EU.
I don't give credit to things not in the films because they are not IN the films.

So Luke and Leia then.
Both are equally close to Padme in that she is their mother and they spent about as much time together. Which isn't much and neither of them really knows Padme. Luke is trained but never got any visions of her or his father.
For Leia to do that even without training is not supported by the films and runs counter to what they have been establishing. If you still want to claim that get visions because she is force sensitive and a child of Padme then that applies equally to Luke and you then need to explain why he doesn't get any visions.
And no, saying "It's random" isn't an answer. That is just an admission that you are making this up as you go along.

Bottom-line, Force visions are not random, the films show this and your reasoning for why Leia gets visions and Luke doesn't, is inconsistent, full of holes and fails utterly as an explanation.

Other comments, Leia being a telepath. In ESB it is Luke who reaches out TO her and speaks in her mind. Luke is the telepath here, not Leia. "Leia, hear me." This is what Luke says. So this doesn't show her as being a telepath or else everyone who has heard a telepath speaking in their minds is a telepath themselves. Nor does it really indicate that she is Force sensitive as Force sensitivity hasn't been established as a requirement to be able to hear a force users pseakign in your mind.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

what.

this is a warning for your many off-topic posts.

 

Why? Why does it make sense? Why is it important?

Sexism had nothing to do with it. It was the simple fact that he wanted one of the children to have some memory of her. Basically it was only done originally to make reference to her.

"The part that I had never really developed is the death of Luke and Leia's mother. I had a back story for her in earlier drafts, but it basically didn't survive. When I got to JEDI, I wanted one of the kids to have some kind of memory of her because she will be a key figure in the new episodes I'm writing. But I really debated on whether or not Leia should remember her."

--George Lucas, Star Wars-The Return Of The Jedi: Annotated Screenplay, 1997

In the end, that's all it came down to. The novelization did have a detailed accounting of Luke having a vague memory, but when he got to the PT, he decided to push back their ages to newborns and then he decided that Padme would die. As to Leia being a telepath, well, she certainly could feel Luke calling to her on Cloud City and later, she could feel that he was alive when the Death Star II blew. So she has the Force with her. Just like Luke could bulls-eye Womp Rats that were hidden in holes that were similar to the Death Star's exhaust port. Just like her father could race pods without needing four arms, or segmented eyes. And just like her father could see the future in his dreams.

And someone a long time ago had visions of the Chosen One that didn't exist yet. Ezra Bridger didn't know Senator Gall Trayvis, but he still had a vision of him. And Obi-wan was close to Padme.

OBI-WAN: "I know you both too well. I can see you two are in love. Padme, I’m worried about him."

OBI-WAN: "We’re all friends, I care about both of you . . ."

I didn't deny that.

And Anakin didn't have any training when he saw himself as a Jedi and saw that his mother would die one day.

And Ahsoka had visions of Padme being shot by Aurra Sing, while Anakin and Obi-wan didn't.

That's not sensing the future. That's sensing a disturbance in the Force.

ANAKIN: "I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves… have you come to free us?"


QUI-GON: "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It's a Jedi trait."

That's right there in the film. That was a vision of the future that he had. Lucas introduced something that was going to be part of the story going forward. As to the novelization, I personally don't care what you think of it. But it is valid. Brooks didn't just pull that out of his ass. Lucas already had informed him that Shmi Skywalker would die when Anakin was an adult and that the Tusken Raiders were involved. Anakin comes back to Tatooine in AOTC to rescue his mother and she dies, just as he saw.

Except her father had visions of himself before he was trained in the Jedi Arts. Supported in TPM. In "Rebels: Spark Of Rebellion", Ezra can sense Kanan even though he hasn't been trained in the Jedi Arts.

LUKE: "My father has it. I have it. And... my sister has it. Yes. It's you, Leia."

LEIA: "I know. Somehow... I've always known."


HAN: "I'm sure Luke wasn't on that thing when it blew."

LEIA: "He wasn't. I can feel it."

 

And as I've said, they're not memories. They're visions of the past. It's like watching a re-run. Put it to you another way, just because Luke didn't have them before, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have them later on. Take note that Luke doesn't have any memory of his father at all, yet felt a strong connection to him. Leia also doesn't have any memory of her real father either. Nor did they have visions of him.

 

Who says that it has to do with them being in proximity to each other? Who says that it was when she died? Leia could see Padme when she was alone in her apartment when the Temple was on fire. Or when the ruminations scene took place. It could be when Padme and Anakin were in her bedroom looking at her old photos from her younger years. It could be when she's sitting in the cockpit before Anakin comes out to the landing platform on Mustafar. Physical contact is not a requirement in visions as Ezra's vision in "Vision Of Hope" attested. He never came in contact with Trayvis until the rescue mission.

Well, at the time, he wasn't thinking along those lines. He was going for memories and the novelization suggested that they were at least two when they were separated. The story meeting transcripts where Lucas detailed the backstory for ROTJ, seems to suggest that they weren't that old when Obi-wan comes to the Skywalker home to tell her his suspicions about Anakin and to relocate them to Alderaan.

 

Mod note: I'd suggest leaving it be at this point.

 

Actually, we don't know how old they were. Lucas never settled on it. He never really developed how she died by his own admission. What was written in the novelization was from James Kahn, not George Lucas. That's the bit where Luke starts to think about who the other was.

 

Originally it was conceived that Luke would be taken to Owen & Beru while Leia remained with her mother for a while before she died. (apparently still of "heartbreak")
But that was back when the PT was but a twinkle in Uncle George's eye. He wanted Padme brought up in ROTJ, since she was to be a main player in the (yet unfashioned) PT.

Then comes the PT and it's obvious that ending the movie with Padme hiding out with Bail & his wife -while arguably, a more "faithful" representation of what we are to believe happened by ROTJ dialogue- wouldn't be a satisfactory ending to the movie. We're left with too many questions that couldn't be resolved. Why didn't Vader track down Padme? He was relentless with Luke. How did Padme die? She was a main player in the PT only to die via a footnote between trilogies? Doesn't she deserve more? Wouldn't she actively help the Alliance,rather than waste away over a few years?

The better alternative is to do what he ultimately did, and suggest that Leia's latent Force powers (along with some visual reminders, such as holo-images or whatever.) are how she remembers.

 

Yoda: "Through the Force, things you will see, other places. The future, the past, old friends long gone."

Leia's Force sensitivity is the answer.

(The plot gets 2nd place as the answer)

 

Yeah, we're talking about a series where people with magic powers can literally see through time. She remembers Padme because Force reasons. Not very specifically but she does. Even in the Princess Leia mini, Leia on Naboo saw an image of Padme and did this sort of weird double take where the image seemed to move.

The Force. That's why.