How did Palpatine become so powerful?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Vaan_Karrde, Jan 8, 2006.

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  1. Vaan_Karrde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2005
    star 1
    Darth Sidious manages to hold his own against Master Yoda, and when he has the chance Yoda escapes and realizes he cannot best him.

    I found it interesting and shocking that a sith, with a limited human life-span, who was trained in secrecy was more powerful than a jedi who has almost a millennia of experience within the Jedi Order.

    There are three factors, IMHO, that could probably justify this outcome:

    1. The Dark Side offers more potent short-term power, Palpatine just recently let his long charade of a kind hearted and meek senator fall, and finally has the chance to tap into his full power.
    2. Perhaps Sidious was right, and Yoda was blinded by his arrogance or overconfidence like Mace Windu and the rest of the Jedi.
    3. Yoda might have been losing his skill in old age, he did lose to Count Dooku (sort of), although this one seemed less likely after having witnessed his abilities in the Clone Wars mini-series, events that didn't happen too long before.
  2. snap-hiss Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2001
    star 5
    1) Dooku did not defeat Yoda, he ran.
    2) The dark side is not stronger, though it can make an individual stronger, though as you said only for the short term.

    !snap
  3. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Lucas says the dark side is more powerful in the AOTC Commentary. The Emperor's power comes from being a Master of the dark side.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    More than likely, Sidious has more of a connection to the Force than Yoda does. Combined with the fact that the Force is out of balance and there you go. Yoda also realizes in the novelization that he just doesn't have it. No matter how hard he tries, he cannot overpower Sidious. He can only last as long as he did. Palpatine has a vast reserves of hate which makes it easier for him to do things with the Force.
  5. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    1. The Dark Side offers more potent short-term power, Palpatine just recently let his long charade of a kind hearted and meek senator fall, and finally has the chance to tap into his full power.

    i think the dark is side is more for the life here and now and not concerned with the afterlife.

    2. Perhaps Sidious was right, and Yoda was blinded by his arrogance or overconfidence like Mace Windu and the rest of the Jedi.

    he was right. but i would say that, wouldn't i?
    in the end sid is out of touch with reality and simply assumes that luke will be swayed easily. just like yoda rested on his overconfidence/arrogance in the PT.

    3. Yoda might have been losing his skill in old age, he did lose to Count Dooku (sort of), although this one seemed less likely after having witnessed his abilities in the Clone Wars mini-series, events that didn't happen too long before.

    i think the skills get better with age.


    well, anyway, the dark side and light side aren't just opposites, they seem to have different qualities altogether. so sid is more powerful in this world whereas the jedi more sort of aim at transcendence maybe?
  6. Darth-Natas Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Good stuff here posted! I don?t see much out of line with my own take on things in the movies as well. I agree with darth_frared that skills do get better with age, but also agree with Vaan_Karrde as to where he was going with Yoda?s age. Yoda?s mastery of the force is maxed out?so is Sidious?s. They are equal only because of this VV.
    Which I completely agree with. Yoda surely has a much higher midchlorian count than Sidious, but Sidious?s mastery of the dark side gives him an edge that makes them equal. The only reason that battle scene between the two of them in Ep.III didn?t go more in Yoda?s favor was because of his physical ailmenst from being so old. Granted, Sidious is up there too, but Yoda is relatively a super senior citizen?even in ROTS.
    I do really disagree with this assessment; not only is Yoda older, and at least as much a Jedi master as Sidious is a Sith master, but Yoda also has a substantially higher midchlorian count surely. I honestly don?t think the whole force being out of balance argument really holds any sway on Yoda?s ability to use it?other than his powers of divination.
  7. ticopuma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2005
    star 5
    Yoda did not lose against Dooku. Dooku ran away from him.

    And Yoda and Sidious are equal in force power. ITs just that the dark side gives Sidious the edge over Yoda.
  8. poker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2005
    star 3
    I see them as equals.

    But the timing was on Sidious side. The force was out of balance and Sidious had the advantage. Anakin's turn, the slaughter, Order 66... Dark dark dark...
  9. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    You keep saying Yoda has a higher midiclorian count, but how do you know that? For all you know Sidious has like 2 less midiclorians then Anakin. And Yoda may be older, but hes a completely different species, Sidious is old in human years and Yoda is old in whatever species he is...so equal.
  10. JASTERSLEGACEYV2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2005
    star 1
    aahh finally, anyway...
    the darkside has an unlimited potental of power, unlike the "light side" wich only wins through sheer numbers and, um, yeah sheer numbers.
    yoda was weak in his old age but he was always weak compared to the old sith masters, and yoda is the head honcho there, now i mean really how can any1 say that the light side as indeviduals r stronger, jango can kill the average jedi on his own, and even the one who was the chosen 1 did'nt get individual lessons because they were so over crowded. with numbers comes disorder and "power" but not true powers as indiviuals, it was like the sherman tanks in world war 2, they were nothing comepared 2 the tiger and panzer tanks, but in a group of 3 they could defeat 1, thats what it's like with the jedi, and thats y yoda lost, it's not due 2 paplatines obously suprior power, it's because of the jedi incompatance and weakness that yoda's skills decreased.
  11. Obi-Wan-1000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 4
    [face_thinking] [face_idea] I think Palpatine's power got stronger because the force was getting out of balance, Thats why the jedi could not sense anything, And there was Anakin turning to the dark side, And there was order 66, I think all of those things made Palpatine stronger.But that is my opinion.:-B
  12. anakin101 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2006
    well if you read books it says that palpatine found a highly potent kyber crystal that boosted his power incredibly with the force, that combined with the fact that palpatine had one of the greatest sith masters of all time to teach him the ways of the dark side shows you why he became soo powerful.
  13. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    From viewing just ROTS and not reading the novel, when the Clones show up, it seemed to me that Yoda was starting to win. The crazy smirk was wiped off Palpy's face when Yoda starts shooting the Senate pods right back at him. In fact, Yoda is able to hold off Palpy's lightning and push the pods right back at Palpy. So from what I saw in the film, Yoda was winning.
  14. Bend_Ovi_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Is the Kyber crystal considered cannon?
  15. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    I don't think so. I think it's EU.
  16. Vaan_Karrde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2005
    star 1
    Actually, the Kyber crystal is a George Lucas invention, and can be found in place of the Force in earlier drafts of the film's script. I think that if there is any EU that Lucas appreciates and acknowledges, it's the Kyber crystal. I believe Splinter of the Mind's Eye was going to be a sequel to A New Hope as the book itself, and has an introduction by George Lucas. :)

    But I think all this debate about what is EU and what is canon is pointless. It's silly how fans isolate and dismiss installments to Star Wars like this, who does that?
  17. The_Chibi_Kiriyama Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2005
    star 1
    The ones whose heads hurt every time someone comes up with an EU reference since the EU has a humongous extended plot, like me. The Kyber Crystal is the subject of a lot of fandom, and even made its way into The Phantom Re-Edit. Like Lucas said in a documentary on the Trilogy DVD box set, it was an unused concept for an unused script.

    As for the debate? I think he had plenty of Wheaties in the morning. [face_mischief] Just kidding, but I bet the occasional bowl of Wheaties would have helped his pasty complexion. I think, rather, that he was just taught by Plaugeis how to harness that hatred in the form of lightsaber combat and Force Lightning. He was already advanced in age when he showed up in The Phantom Menace; it's not farfetched to believe he spent a lot of time learning the Sith way of fighting before he killed Plagueis and took Maul as his apprentice. That's about as much as I can infer from the films.
  18. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    As per LucasFilm, if it's not in the films, novels, radio plays and other LucasFilm sources directly tied to the films, then it's not canon.

    While it's always fun to play around in the SW universe, it's also important to make a distinction between what is canon and what is fan fiction otherwise the stories can take directions that Lucas had no intention of supporting. [face_peace]
  19. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
    Not to make this a canon debat, but its slightly different than that.

    According to the canon ranking system in The Holocron (read: LFL), just about all of the EU is canon, except for certain things like Infinities, some Tales, etc. However, the EU is rated as C-canon, which means that the films (G-canon) win out whenever there is a contradiction.


    None of the Star Wars novels, guides, RPG stuff, etc. are fan-fiction, because they are endorsed by LFL. Lucas himself OKs some of the major plot points in the novels (for example, he edited a list of potential Force Powers to be seen in the Tales of the Jedi comic series, and almost certainly was involved in the decision to allow Chewie to die.)

    :)
  20. Vaan_Karrde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2005
    star 1
    That's very interesting.

    Do you have a reference for that (about Chewie's death)? I believe you, but I've always wonder what Lucas's take on such a huge EU event was, can you post a commentary or something?
  21. Magical_Maestro Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2005
    star 1
    Simple. Palpatine knew the power of Plagueis and is ancient. He's had hundreds of years of experience using the Dark Side, and is subsequently extremely powerful, just as the numero uno Jedi Yoda has had hundreds of years training with the Lightside. And given what we know about the force, it's very unlikely a human, save Vader if he hadn't gotten injured, could have developed the abilities that Sidious possessed over the course of an average lifespan. So the ancient theory is really the only one that holds water in this regard. Plus, it also explains why his face is so withered and deformed considering he's been using the Dark Side almost the entirety of his unaturally long life.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    First, the Kaibur Crystal was on Mimbam. Palpatine didn't have it. So anyone who says that he had one, doesn't know his ass from his elbow. Palpatine did have a cache of artificial, red crystals that he used for his Lightsabers and gave to all his Apprentices. I'm almost 99% certain Palpatine did not have a Kaibur crystal on him when he fought Yoda.

    Second, it is possible that with the Force out of balance, the two Jedi Master's powers dwindle. Note that Obi-wan no longer has confidence in his ability to fight the battles and Vader claims that his powers are weak. With the Dark Side being the dominate force in the galaxy, it is quite possible that Yoda's is seriously outmatched because of it.

    Third, Chewbacca's death was approved by Lucas after he said no to killing Luke off in "Vector Prime". But he doesn't read the books, so it doesn't matter to him one way or another.

    Fourth, the canon debate needs to be taken to the Literature forum.
  23. Magical_Maestro Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2005
    star 1

    [face_laugh]
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Might've been a bit harsh and for that I'm sorry. But my point still stands. BTW, Palpatine's not anicent. He has the normal lifespan of a human in the GFFA. Which seems to stretch well in the hundreds. The current line from Lucasbooks is that social security would kick in at 120. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek, but you get the point. According to the timeline, he's only 63 in ROTS.
  25. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2003
    star 6
    >>>Do you have a reference for that (about Chewie's death)? I believe you, but I've always wonder what Lucas's take on such a huge EU event was, can you post a commentary or something? <<<

    :( I don't have an exact reference, but what I've heard about the SW book writing process here at TF.N and other places, George has to sign off on certain major plot events. (For example, authors can't just go and kill Han/Luke/Leia whenever they feel like it, and I'm pretty sure that Chewie was no different.) He also has set some things off-limits for writers (Yoda's origin, and possibly Palpatine's origin.)

    Another example is that Tim Zahn was originially going to have a clone of Obi-wan in the Thrawn Trilogy, but Lucas nixed the idea. He also had considerable input into the RotS novel (he did a line-by-line edit, or so I've heard.)
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