How did Palpatine become so powerful?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Vaan_Karrde, Jan 8, 2006.

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  1. farrellg Force Ghost

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    Mar 17, 2005
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    Yeah, they know how to do it. Luke doesn't ever use a Force shove. Thus he'd be owned by a Force shove. Especially a king size one that Obi-wan used on Grievous and tried to use on Anakin.

    Luke has used telekinetic powers. He lifted Threepio up in the air, which is the same concept as a Force push. I see no evidence that Luke would be owned by a Force push. Vader wasn't able to defeat him this way. Grievous is a non-Force user, so its a lot easier to Force push him than it is to Force push Luke. This is why Vader Force chokes Imperial officers, but doesn't Force choke Luke or Obi-Wan.

    Lex Luthor isn't scary. Blofeld wasn't scary. Moriarty isn't scary. The Wicked Witch had to be scary, because MGM wanted it to be that way.

    The Emperor already was portrayed as "scary" in ROTJ. That's how the character was envisioned, so the films should continue to make him seem just as frightening.

    No, it's because those films ****. Not because of the scariness. But because they were poor films all around.

    I think that a lack of shock factor contributes to the poor quality of the film. Some people thought that Mark of the Vampire was a good film up until the point where its revealed that the "vampires" are charlatans. In the same way, when people go into a film expecting to see an ultra-powerful villain based on a previous film, they are going to be disappointed if he appears weaker.

    Nope. Who says that he's talking about Palpatine? Maybe he is refering to the Dark Side. The Dark Side owns him. It controls him. Palpatine just gives orders, but it's the Dark Side that makes him do what he does.

    He said: "I must obey my Master." Vader must be referring to the Emperor, since he is Vader's Master. The dark side isn't an animate person, so it can't give Vader direct orders. Vader can only feel tempted to continue using the dark side.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I never gave much thought to it, mostly to avoid hyping it up in my mind. Mainly because I'd let the PT fill me in. I think there were those who thought that Palpatine just came in with the Stormtroopers and just overpowered the Jedi in battle, especially once Anakin became Vader.

    Vader has no clue how well trained Luke is, when they finally face off. He's impressed when Luke proves to be a match for him. Vader doesn't want to kill Luke, so a well timed Force shove is out of the question. Luke does know how to lift someone or something up. But he appears to not know how to use it agaisnt an opponet as demonstrated during the Sail Barge assault. In fact, it isn't until "Dark Empire" in the eu that he finally starts to use it. Vader wouldn't use a Force choke, because it can be countered. That's only logical. But if one doesn't know how to deal with it, they can be taken unaware.

    I wasn't scared when I saw him. I was six. I saw him as just like Skeletor and he wasn't scary either.

    That's called a **** poor film, with a bad plot twist.

    The Force can control your actions, but it can obey your orders. As Lucas said, the Dark Side can take over a Jedi.

    It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and that he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] suggest that although one can?t see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the g
  3. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    frankly, I never gave much thought to it either - it's just this discussion that had me reflecting on what my perception was back then.

    I don't pretend having had any detailed idea on what had happened. But I know that I didn't think the Empire had come to be by overpowering the Jedi by means of one man with a lightsaber or forcelighting. I also know I didn't expect one single man to have orchestrated the whole thing almost single-handedly. If I had any concrete idea at all, it would be more like one man having the support of a considerable number of others.

    It would be interesting to explore how people had thought the Empire to come to be, don't you think?


  4. farrellg Force Ghost

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    Vader doesn't want to kill Luke, so a well timed Force shove is out of the question. Luke does know how to lift someone or something up. But he appears to not know how to use it agaisnt an opponet as demonstrated during the Sail Barge assault. In fact, it isn't until "Dark Empire" in the eu that he finally starts to use it. Vader wouldn't use a Force choke, because it can be countered. That's only logical. But if one doesn't know how to deal with it, they can be taken unaware.

    A force push wouldn't necessarily kill Luke. Vader hurled heavy objects at Luke and cut off his hand, which could be more damaging than a force push.

    If Luke can lift someone up, that's the same thing as a force push. Dooku lifted Obi-Wan up in the air. Maybe Luke didn't feel it was necessary to force push anyone at Jabba's sail barge. If a force choke can be countered, than so can a force push (as Anakin and Obi-Wan demonstrated).

    I wasn't scared when I saw him. I was six. I saw him as just like Skeletor and he wasn't scary either.

    Electrocuting Luke and ordering around Vader didn't make him seem scary? I would have thought so, or at least that he seems scarier if no one sees his lightning blocked.

    Wouldn't the Emperor be different than Skeletor because the latter is always defeated? The Emperor is able to easily overpower the hero.

    It's Palpatine, but it's also the Dark Side that Vader is a servent to. Palpatine is merely the one who inducts a Jedi into being a Sith. But it's the Dark Side that rules Vader. Even if Palpatine is killed, Vader would still be a slave to the Dark Side. It rules him. It controls him. He's only with Palpatine until it's time to kill him. The opportunity comes when Luke shows up.

    We might not have concerte evidence that Vader fears the Emperor. Vader's situation could be similar to an addiction, where the dark side practically dominates his existence. The shackles of the dark side are too strong for Vader to break, or so he thinks.

    Did anyone, after having just seen the OT, actually think he had become Emperor by picking up a lightsaber?

    I always assumed he became Emperor through political means. There are so many Jedi. I never imagined that the Emperor would kill them all himself, especially since I wasn't aware he had fighting skills. I figured that the Emperor might kill some people with lightning, while Vader and his troops would take care of eliminating the majority of his enemies.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I understand what you're saying. I assume you mean audience preception or eu material?

    You saw how hard Obi-wan was thrown against the balcony. Imagine it being done on a human, much less a very inexperienced Jedi like Luke.

    Luke has less than a year's worth of training. Vader has had years of training. Vader knows more about the Force than Luke. Thus he could do all kinds of stuff to Luke. Same with Obi-wan. Luke can levitate objects. That's not a Force push. A Force push/shove is where you send someone/something hurtling in the air. Levitation is just that.

    Nothing Palpatine did was scary to a six year old, like me. This is my point in thinking that everyone shares your worldview. I know that the same could be said of me and what I've said. I can remember seeing the film for the first time and he never once scared me. Neither did Vader for that matter and I was four when I saw ANH.

    Nope. Besides, Palpatine's defeated at the end of ROTJ by nothing more simple as picking him up and throwing him down a hole. Some all powerful being he was.
  6. mandragora Force Ghost

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    May 28, 2005
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    Well, both of it, actually. I could ask my friends for an input on audience perception. I'm not too familiar with the EU and its take on the subject - perhaps you could fill me in?
  7. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    You saw how hard Obi-wan was thrown against the balcony. Imagine it being done on a human, much less a very inexperienced Jedi like Luke.

    Vader might have found an opening to force push Luke in ESB, but Luke was too strong for Vader to overpower him in ROTJ.

    Luke can levitate objects. That's not a Force push. A Force push/shove is where you send someone/something hurtling in the air. Levitation is just that.

    If you levitate someone, you can make them hit the wall. It seems like the same thing as a force push to me.

    The question is whether lightning is more powerful than a force push. It seems like lightning is stronger because only the most Advanced Sith lords can use it. Even Obi-Wan and Anakin could use force pushes as Padawans. The Emperor could use lightning when he's unarmed, but his Jedi opponents are defenseless against him if they don't have a saber.

    Nothing Palpatine did was scary to a six year old, like me. This is my point in thinking that everyone shares your worldview. I know that the same could be said of me and what I've said. I can remember seeing the film for the first time and he never once scared me. Neither did Vader for that matter and I was four when I saw ANH.

    Some people might think he was scary, even if that isn't true for everyone. Not seeing lightning blocked would give the Emperor the same image he had in ROTJ. It seems that people have adjusted their view of the Emperor's powers because of ROTS.

    Nope. Besides, Palpatine's defeated at the end of ROTJ by nothing more simple as picking him up and throwing him down a hole. Some all powerful being he was.

    I think the difference is Skeletor has never overpowered the hero, but the Emperor has. The Emperor is defeated by Vader, but at least he manages to defeat Luke with the blue lightning.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
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    Most of the eu prior to the PT depict roughly what Lucas wrote in his intro to ANH and what James Kahn wrote in the ROTJ novelization, which was loosely based on that. Only a couple of details were off, such as when the Clone Wars ended that some Jedi stood up to the Emperor in the Senate. The date was just a simple error based on old materal, before Lucas said when it took place. The Senate part was based on Lucas' second draft and I think the radio drama of ANH.

    From a fan view point, I'm not sure. I do recall that I think some people thought that there would be a huge fight and overthrowing of the Jedi and Republic. Rather than the Republic becoming the Empire.
  9. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
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    I see. The ANH intro and the ROTJ novelization to a great extent leave it up to the imagination of the audience, I think.

    As to the fan POV: Seems more like one man is taking power by means of brute force, rather than power "is given power by the rest of us, because we are stupid, or afraid, or both." (another B5 quote, forgive me). I admit that most likely my ideas went in the same direction back then. But now I must say I'm a lot happier with story as it turned out to be.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
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    That's why Lucas made statements and comparisons to Hitler, Napoleon, Ceasar and even Nixon. When ROTS was coming out, people were thinking that he was drawing comparisons to George W. Bush and current events. Though Lucas said that it's more along the lines of other leaders and not so much the current leader.
  11. vong333 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2003
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    In a way, that was why the OT was very good. It was a simple good vs. evil story, mirroed in mythology with a mix of japanese. The prequels for some reason try to legitamize the OT. I guess thats why I have had a hard time following it as much as the OT stories.
  12. mandragora Force Ghost

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    May 28, 2005
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    I think he distilled the general process by which a democracy is endangered to turn into a dictatorship, a process that has kept repeating itself throughout history. Though I think none of the leaders mentioned can be "credited" for having orchestrated the process on his own to the extent Palpatine has.

    Perhaps what people (and myself) had imagined back then was something closer to a military coup, kind of what happened quite a few times in some non-western countries. But it seems that this isn't the greatest or at least not the only danger for a modern democracy - the danger that is often overlooked is coming from within, and it's really more about giving power to the people in question than seizing power by means of an act of force on the part of them.
  13. DarthDubya05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    star 4
    now this would make a great Novel or comic book idea, if Lucasarts allowes this to be done.
  14. vote_for_palpatine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 1
    First of all, to the recent question, it makes sense that the Republic would become the Empire - after all, most of the infrastructure (world governments, the Senate) was already in place. Palpatine filled in the gap (the military) to deal with the one body poised to stand in his way - the Jedi.

    As to the leading question, it's obvious to me that genetics play a role. The most powerful Force users depicted in the PT have high midichlorian counts. Combining Palpatine's Force power with his shrewd, calculating mind makes for one of the most effective Force users in the history of the GFFA.

    Who's more powerful? is indeterminate. It seems to me that Palpatine, Yoda, Anakin/Vader, Dooku, and Mace Windu were all roughly equal (give or take 10%), while Maul and Obi-Wan were a little bit behind that group.

    Palpatine prevailed because his ability to control and manipulate people and events could not be countered.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I recall that in the early drafts, Lucas had two different origins for the rise of the Emperor. In the 74 draft, Cos DaShit was elected Emperor and there was the war between the Jedi Bendu and his Sith Knights, which was the Holy War of '06. The Jedi lost and the survivors were forced to go into hiding. In the 75 draft, the Emperor was elected by the Senate. The Jedi discovered that he had used a lot of shady and questionable means to get in office. Just as they rallied against him, Palpatine had many Jedi arrested, tried and executed for treason. Those who escaped went to the Outer Rim to spread the truth about Palpatine and started the Alliance.
  16. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    That's why Lucas made statements and comparisons to Hitler, Napoleon, Ceasar and even Nixon

    The Nixon line from the ROTS commentary baffles me.
    He tried to seek a third term? What?
    Nixon resigned after the beginning of his second term,
    so unless GL is referencing Nixon's stint at the
    end of the 50s as Eisenhower's VP, I have no
    idea what it is he's talking about.
    Any clues?
  17. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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    star 6
    I got the same impression too especially given the fact that Palpatine is freaked out while he's holding onto that bar on his pod and that the only reason Yoda can't pull himself up unlike Sidious is that the pod Yoda falls onto has no bar.

    While the Jedi didn't forget how to fight Force Users there's a difference between what would amount to a no-kill spar and actual combat, as evidenced by the fact that two of Mace's posse go down without even being able to block.

    Jedi don't get married, until Luke's Order that is. Anakin is far from a model Jedi and Mace wasn't killing an unarmed prisoner because as evidenced by the fact that he was shooting lightning from his fingers, as Sith Lord is never unarmed.

    Yoda's statement about the Dark Side is true in that the Dark Side is stronger in the sense of being able to kill someone with your will but the Light Side is stronger in that it can give you immortality. On this issue it depends on your definition of stronger. The fact that the Light Side won in the end would also be enough for some people to declare it stronger.

    It also shows nothing of the Emperor's strength as Luke realized that he was treading the edge of the Dark Side and was ready to die instead of falling.

  18. farrellg Force Ghost

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    Yoda's statement about the Dark Side is true in that the Dark Side is stronger in the sense of being able to kill someone with your will but the Light Side is stronger in that it can give you immortality. On this issue it depends on your definition of stronger. The fact that the Light Side won in the end would also be enough for some people to declare it stronger.

    When Lucas and the Emperor talk about power, they are referring to the powers of destruction. This is why Lucas says that the dark side is stronger. It gives the user more lethal powers, such as force lightning.

    It also shows nothing of the Emperor's strength as Luke realized that he was treading the edge of the Dark Side and was ready to die instead of falling.

    I think it shows the Emperor's strength because he was able to completely overpower Luke with the Force. Luke was defenseless against the power of the dark side.

    A fully trained Jedi can do quite a bit without his saber including the fact that in the novelization Luke blocked the Emperor's lightning briefly before being overpowered, so given that a Padawan even though he's the son of the Chosen One can block the powers of the Emperor(assuming you bring the novelizations into it) says that the Dark Side's not as powerful as it is when the Force is out of balance.

    The novels rank below the films in canon. If something described in a novel is contradicted by the film, obviously the film stands. Luke didn't block any lightning in the movie, so that part of the novel has been invalidated.

    Do you assume that Luke knew lightning could be blocked with a saber or with the Force even though he wasn't able to do it in the movie? If this is the case, then the ROTJ novel might be able to shed some light on how effective the dark side was supposed to be in the OT. You might have a point about the Emperor's powers possibly being blocked.

    Vader's also in emotional slavery because the Emperor can shut his suit off at anytime via Force Lightning. Vader also seemed resigned to be the Emperor's apprentice until he met Luke and also seemed to basically assume that either Luke or the Emperor would kill him.

    There however is also the idea of the Dark Side controlling you that I still think makes sense given how hard it is to turn one back even when they're struggling with the morality of it. I also thought that Vader was addicted to the Dark Side.


    This gave me the impression that Vader fears the Emperor. You bring up a good point about the dark side controlling Vader. It does seem similar to an addiction. This is why Vader feels so much conflict, but can't let go of the dark side right away. He thinks that its "too late" for him to listen to Luke and change his ways.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I think that prior to the Watergate scandel blowing up like it did, Nixon wanted to run for a third term. And his platform would've been using the war in Vietnam to do that. But because of the political pressure and scandel, he backed away from that notion. Had he continued on without any problems, he might've gotten things changed so that he could stay in office a third term. It should be noted that in a few fictional tales, Nixon never gets in trouble and has remained in office longer than he should. Writer Alan Moore would use this in "Watchmen".
  20. JediCouncilMaster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 2005
    star 6
    It's one of those things where a story needs a Protagonist and an Antagonist. The ultimate "bad guy" and the ultimate "good guy."
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