ST How did Snoke seduce Ben Solo?

Which would be a stupid thing for Luke, Han, and Leia to do. When will these Jedi learn how to handle these things? I mean, I guess it ended up working with Ben Kenobi and Luke (Ben lying in order to keep Luke from knowing the truth), but I see that as Luke being extraordinarily strong and willing to overlook the lie.

Wouldn't the best way to handle your child Ben Solo be to simply tell him, when he's old enough, the truth about his grandfather, and that his grandfather was a bad person and did horrible things but then was redeemed to the good side by Uncle Luke?

I wouldn't want my family to keep something like that from me. I'd rather know the truth.

 

Jedi have a problem telling the truth. Sith don't have this problem if it suits them.

 

Leia and Han weren't Jedi, they could have spoken to the guy about anything without thinking about a code of conduct or Jedi norms.

"you think of Han Solo as the father you never had; He would have disappointed you" - Kylo says to Rey.

Han probably wasn't around much to talk about stuff, and Leia was busy with her leadership duties.

 

That's how I've always pictured it happening. It can't be a mere coincidence that he finds the truth about Vader being his grandfather shortly before he decides to turn to the Dark Side. I've always imagined his fall to the Dark Side being that he felt Luke was holding him back from his true potential (the same way Anakin felt Obi-Wan was holding him back) and once he learned the truth about his parentage he felt he could become much more powerful on the Dark Side (with Snoke's encouragement).

A lot of people assumed they were going down the "Han and Leia were neglectful parents and caused him to turn to the Dark Side" route but Pablo's comments about Han and Leia indicate that that's not going to be the backstory.

"A typical example, that for whatever reason I felt the need to get roped in on, is the immediate assumption regarding Kylo's disposition, about Kylo being a villain, is that it's an indictment of Han and Leia as parents I don't believe that. And so I get dragged into that conversation and I realize I need to be careful because I might be taking away someone's speculation about Han and Leia, about everything that happened. But at the same time I feel it's important to say it's not because they're bad parents. Sometimes bad people just happen."

 

I think Han and Leia tried the best they could. Both had large roles of the Rebellion, both were hard working and consumed with making things better. Neither had real insights into the Jedi or their ways. In a real world example, imagine hard-working blue-collar parents who never finished high-school, who struggle just to make ends meet each week, raise a child who they obviously know is a some sort of genius prodigy and could have a better future than theirs. They can't afford the best schools, they can't even relate to him, but they try their best to understand their son as best they can.

In Han and Leia's case, they have a headstrong son who is a bit power hungry and strong in the force in ways they can't even compete with, and send him off to train with Luke and hope for the best. They keep their family's dark past a secret as long as they can, so it doesn't influence him, but it gets out and has disastrous consequences.

 

What a load of old rubbish for a story that is. If this is redemption story, its pathetic? How can anyone have empathy with that story

 

Who said anything about redemption? An explanation for why the future villain went bad is all I'm theorizing about. Knowing how people turn evil, doesn't mean we sympathize or forgive their acts. It just means we understand their motivations, maybe so we don't go on repeating them. And our little blue dot of a planet could use a whole lot more empathy all around - from everyone. Trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes to find out they made their mistakes, is rubbish to you? Jeez.

 

I wonder if Snoke borrowed Ben's mother's gold bikini?

 

I skimmed parts of Bloodline too much but I think I agree w you... I recall that awful Senator woman found the secret when she was going through someone else's stuff. She found a recorded message from Bail intended for Leia informing her who her father was. Her Awfulness did have ties to the First Order, so she could have been advised to make the recording public. Snoke already knew of course (he's known for a long time) and I really agree with the theory he might be a Jedi who survived order 66 (that might be why he knows). But without proof Snoke wouldn't be able to make it public like this.

ETA: the one issue I have w this is that Her Awfulness made it public to hurt Leia specifically and indeed it booted Leia from the Senate because people didn't trust her after they knew Vader was her biological father. Leia's decreased influence in the Senate helped break down the New Republic govt (this helps the budding FO) so the move may have not been as petty as it seemed.

I think Snoke didn't tell Ben about Vader because he knew this would be a bombshell and needed to be dropped on Ben at the right time. Ben already probably doesn't trust his parents (Snoke I'm sure helped there) and then when he learns of this deception, and to find out on the holonet instead of from his parents, I think sent him over the edge. I think it was after that, that he went and found Vader's helmet. Vader became the only true family member, the only one who'd understand him, who wouldn't have deceived him like his parents and Uncle did. Vader can easily fill whatever role Kylo needs someone to fill (since he's dead/a helmet/a product of Kylo's imagination).

Going back in time, I read that Abrams said neglect from his parents turned him to the dark side. And I think he was well provided for (given everything) but his parents are both so busy they didn't give him enough of what he needed most: their time and attention. I think that he craved his father's attention most of all, but maybe Han never had the best relationship with him because Han didn't understand him and his abilities. In comes Snoke, to help him deal with this pain until he is gradually convinced his father is just a loser not worthy of his heartbreak; a disappointment. And I really think Snoke was actually there in their lives, because Leia knows who he was. If he was a Jedi who survived 66, it would win him sympathy more than anything else. Maybe no one saw for a while what kind of person he really was.

Ben is deeply insecure and afraid he isn't enough. The fear of not being enough is I think what turned him. He's not skilled enough with the Force, he's not strong enough, he's not capable enough, he's not lovable enough (or his parents would be in his life more)... just everything is an inadequacy. And the Dark Side is what he *chooses* to fill in for these weaknesses. He doesn't have a solid identity and so he leans on Vader's identity. (This is interesting because I don't think Ben went into the dark blindly; it was way more of a choice than Anakin's fall.)

I'm sure Snoke wants to keep him weak and insecure because then he will remain dependent on Snoke. His need for a father figure makes him easy to manipulate. However, if Snoke "disappoints" Ben, watch out. Unworthy dads get a lightsaber through them.

I'm assuming Ben's political views (which were Centrist > Populist) were largely influenced by Snoke as well and that in his twisted way he thinks the First Order is creating order in the galaxy (he intends to finish what Vader started after all).

ETA: I'm not entirely sure Snoke always knew, but I think he did...

 

probably made him feel like everyone fears him.

 

Now that I think about it, I keep wanting something complex and emotionally tormenting like Anakin's turn. But that really isn't necessary.

"Ben, why do you think the Republic is so "scared" to instill a new leader? To implement a strong military force to govern its territories? It's because they are scared of their inadequacies in the past and in the present. Because of their history of corruption and inability to control their people, they are unable to establish order as the Empire did. Your grandfather knew this and he eliminated what was crippling the galaxy. And do you know what ended their reign? What crumble this Empire?"
"It was his son--my uncle Luke...He sacrificed his life for him"
"LOL, yeah.Just a matter of sentiment. Or was it?If he truly did turn his back on the Empire how are we to know? They say he redeemed himself, Ben. Are we so certain of this? Who spoke his last words and intentions? That's right-- a Jedi. And we trust him to tell what exactly happened.? Are we sure Vader did not kill Sidious solely to take his position as Master. After all, that is the way of the Sith, is it not?"
"........"
"The Jedi believe that this "redemption" was the "will of the Force", and being born of the Force, his life's mission was seen as being completed. *sigh* Ben, the Force does not take a break. Its will is certainly not something that can be halted by a band of terrorist rebels. This is why you feel this conflict just as he did when he was younger. Born gifted in the Force, raised into light, and told the dark side was unnatural. But if it was so unnatural, why would it grow at all? Especially in someone so gifted and wise as him. Even a child born of the Force could not resist the dark side that grew within.The Force was speaking to Vader about its true nature. And now it speaks to you. Where he was "defeated" another was born to finish what he could not quite complete. That is you, Ben. Of the same lineage, the same bloodline. The Force has destined you to finish what he started. Is it not clear?"

*Shortly thereafter, gets knighted "Kylo Ren" and murders an entire school of Jedi students*