How did the Empire build up between ANH-ESB?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Osto, Jan 8, 2000.

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  1. Osto Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1999
    Sorry all, this thread went corrupt and I had to delete it, but I copied it before I axed it... let the "discussion" continue

    Why some people disliked TMP: IMHO
    Go-Mer-Tonic
    Jedi Knight posted 01-07-2000 12:50 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It is not so hard to understand people liking some films in a series.
    I loved Alien and Aliens, but could pretty much care less about the third and fouth chapters. And don't even get me started on the Batman series decline after the second Tim Burton directed film.

    Anyway, I was worried that I may feel the same way about TPM. Turns out it was better than I could have even hoped for.

    To me, there are four major groups of people who didn't like it:

    1) People who cannot stand the "kiddie" or "cute" elements.

    These poor people are jaded by life and can no longer enjoy the simple pleasures the rest of us have no problem with. They have decided to separate themselves from that part of them that would not mind taking a swing in the park. They do this to prove to the world how grown up they are. It is a statement of responsibility. I am not saying that they are bad or anything, just that they will have less and less fun as they continue down this dark and depressing path. They didn't like the Ewoks, and now they have a bone to pick with Jar-Jar's fart and poop jokes.

    2) People who did not understand the actual plot of the film.

    These people, fed on horrible SW wannabes like ID4, expect to be able to comprehend everything in one cost effective veiwing. As we know, The Phantom Menace is about a phantom plot. The whole "Sidious=Palpatine is taking over the senate" scenario was totally overshadowed by the superficial battle for Naboo. These poor people will go on and on about how it would have been obvious if it was made well enough. They blame Lucas for the editing, and wonder why every little bit is not spelled out for them and hit over their head. I am not saying these people are wrong, just that they will inevitiably miss out on the incredible depth of this masterfully crafted plot. They simply refuse to try to comprehend it. Many of the early bad reviews fit this category. Go ahead and dig one of them up, and compare their arguments to what was really going on in the film, and you will see they just didn't understand the plot in any way. David Brin is a perfect example. He actually was under the impression that Maul was sent to kill Amidala! He went on and on about how little sense that makes, and how Lucas couldn't write himself out of a paper bag, when he was completely wrong. Maul was sent to retreive Amidala so that she would sign the treaty. After hundreds of fans sent him email about these mistakes he made, he actually took the time to write a follow up article that stood by his original remarks, while citing the "rabid star wars fans" of being delusional in their attempt to enjoy the film.

    3) People who wanted a rehash of the classic trilogy.

    These are the people who wondered where Han and Chewie were. They couldn't understand why Amidala wasn't sassy like Leia. They missed Boba Fett. Again, these are valid desires, but the thing is, Lucas has a story he is trying to tell. He is not just making these movies in an attempt to recreate the formulas of the original trilgoy. At least not narratively speaking. We have a bunch of new characters to get into, and it is arguable that future generations who see the films in order will wonder where the Jar-Jar equivilent is in the classic trilgoy.

    4) People who wanted sequels, not prequels.

    They wanted more exitement than ROTJ. They don't understand that because this is the first part, Lucas has to build up the final prequel episode. Lucas has said that he purposely held back this time to create room for a growing crechendo of intensity. I can understand why people feel this way, but when this saga is complete, it will be the most balanced, well paced series of films ever created. Future generations who get the amazing pleasure of watching these things in proper or
  2. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    I agree with Go-Mer-Tonics points. A lot of people/fans are just plain afraid to be kids, to be around kids, to watch kids on the screen and they are determined to live a miserable life. Darth Warrick appears to be one of them and I wonder if he ever read my thread "Three Cheers for Jedi Master Matt OR The Cross-generational Appeal of TPM." Some of it was written directly to him. I also think that TPM suffers from the same syndrome from which any sequel/prequel suffers: preconceived notions. It will always lose because people/so-called fans can always say either "It was too much like the original" OR "It wasn't enough like the original." And JediGaladriel was right about people being fed too much bleak/dreary cyberpunk SF/Matrix crap stuff and then demanding that Star Wars be like that. Having said that I'll repeat what I've said before when I say that I really think Ep. 3 will be the best of all six movies.
  3. Sabe Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 9, 1999
    Darth Scooby: I think Quaff is remotely funny.

    Well, no, in truth, I think he is very funny. You know, this discussion has been going on for soooo long that we would all go crazy if we were taking it entirely seriously.
    Not that I think that the topic is not interesting: there have been great discussions with subtle insights on TPM born from bashers/gushers wars. See the "Empathy Factor", for example... Forum7/HTML/003035.html Forum7/HTML/003035.html

    Quaff, can you post some other links here? Not of Bashers threads in particular, but of "conflictual" threads where the discussion was polite, tolerant and interesting... (Polite most of the time, at least.)
  4. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Darth Scooby,

    Greetings and Salutations! I aplogize for not going into great detail about my difficulties with TPM. However, I did refer readers to the "empathy factor" thread mentioned above. I spent a lot of time and thought on that thread trying to express some of my reasons for being disappointed with parts of the movie, and trying to come to terms with my feelings. I really didn't want to take the time and energy to rehash it all over again when it was readily available. If it had been an old thread from weeks back, I might have re-posted my views, but it was right there on page 2 (now page 1).

    I sometimes wonder: Don't Quaff and Go-Mer get tired of saying the same thing over and over ad nauseum? Not that it isn't interesting to read... I just don't have the time or the patience to keep restating my views I guess.

    MTFBWY
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg I really think Quaff's stuff is funny. I just want to hear why he was let down.

    I would like to be able to say, here is another reason: Quaff's

    Quaff, you are getting upset because I am trying to find out why some people were so let down.

    This is also good for the Bashers, because this way, your feelings are heard, and better yet, understood byt people like Lucas, who obviously liked what he did in TPM.

    Who knows maybe Lucas will listen to your complaints.

    I am not trying to say, see, you guys are wrong for not liking TPM. I am not trying to say your thinking on the matter is flawed.

    I am just saying some things that are important to you, do not bother me in the slightest.

    If you don not want to discuss these things, then why are you here?

  6. BroacLanders Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 1999
    You forgot to metnion the people who dont like slapstick humor or fake, cartoony, CGI charecters.
  7. Darth Warrick Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 1
    Rather than start a counter-thread I'd like like to point out the categories that I think some (most) of the TPM supporters at this forum fall into. This list comes from countless discussions with "Gushers" and listening to their personal reasons for liking the film. It is by no means all incluisive so feel free to add:

    1) Mindless Lucas-Loving Sycophants This group of fans are more infatuated with the man than his creations and you can easily identify them whenever you catch someone arguing that "Howard The Duck" was "really a great film."

    2) The Beancounters This group of TPM fans can be easily identified by their insistence is really a great movie because of it's Box Office gross. They usually whither-up and fade away when faced with the very effective "Titanic" counter-argument.

    3) The Title-Crawlers The most non-discerning of TPM apologists these fans would basically accept anything if it was preceeded by the traditional Star Wars title crawl combined with John Williams stirring music. If pressed to find fault with the film they can ususally only resort to Obi's hair switching sides between scenes and only then with great personal trepidation for being critical of the flick on any level.

    4) The Forty Timers These fans proclaim TPM the best because they've seen it forty times. Usually the only other films they saw last year were "Blair Witch" and "The Matrix" but no matter- they're qualified to judge what the best film of last year was.

    5) The The Bugs-Bunnyites These fans are characterized by the complaint that TPM was too "real" and there weren't enough jokes involving Jar Jar and flatuation. Just throw a belching critter into a film and they're in heaven.

    I could just go on and on...
  8. Quaff-Down Gin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 1999
    star 4
    WE NOW REJOIN THE PSYCHO-ANALYSIS OF THE CENTURY!!!!!!

    Go-Mer: "Now Quaff, why don't you just state for everyone here the problems you had with TPM (which, I might add, I have heard a thousand times and said they were insignificant)."

    Quaff: "Why don't you list the problems I had with the film?"

    Go-Mer: "Why would I want to do that? They are your ideas."

    Quaff: "Because you already know what they are. I've stated them a hundred times."

    Go-Mer: "Look, we're trying to categorize you here, but how can I break down your post line-by-line when you don't give me anything to work with."

    Quaff: "I've given you plenty to work with. What do you think we've been doing the last six months?"

    Go-Mer: "You don't 'get it'."

    Quaff: "Get what?"

    Go-Mer: "Get what I'm trying to do."

    Quaff: "Which is?"

    Go-Mer: "To find out why you hated TPM."

    Quaff: "I don't hate it."

    Go-Mer: "I mean why you didn't like it."

    Quaff: "I liked some of it."

    Go-Mer: "Why you didn't care for some aspects of it, OK?"

    Quaff: "Yep."

    Go-Mer: "So what did you not care for?"

    Quaff: "Is that gramatically correct?"

    Go-Mer: "I don't know."

    Quaff: "Oh well. Go-Mer, I've already told you more times than I can count."

    Go-Mer: "Wouldn't you consider doing it one last time for ol' times sake?"

    Quaff: "Not gonna happen. Frankly, I'm tired of your dissection of everyone's posts who have any sort of a disagreement with any aspect of TPM. You don't do it to the Gushers. Why do you do it to everyone else? I know. Because it humiliates them. Do you realize that there is a difference between 1) disagreeing with a person's post and stating your disagreement of the overall idea of that post, and 2) dissecting every line of a person's thread and shooting down every word they say. Basically you are telling them that not only is the overall idea of their post 'insignificant' or 'wrong', you are telling them basically that everything they say, every word is worthless. That sucks. I'm not gonna waste my time rehashing and feeding you info you already know so you can do it to me again. I know your views on TPM so well that I could write your posts for you, and vice versa, so I'll let you do it."

    Go-Mer: "But if I tell you what I really think I'll just throw you into group 1,2,3 or 4, or all of them."

    Quaff: "You've done it before... "

    Go-Mer: "I still don't understand why you just can't restate your views."

    Quaff: "Look, Go-Mer, regardless of what anyone of us says, even if you create new categories for us, you're still gonna put a negative spin on that category and basically give the impression that it is our fault and that their is something wrong with us. The fact of the matter is, there isn't, but you are so swept up in TPM that you can't even accept that there are people that don't care for alot of TPM that are not jaded and do not have some form of personal deficiencies. Remember, it's all a matter of opinion. It's all a matter of taste."

    Go-Mer: "Then there must be something wrong with your taste."

    Quaff: "Why is that?"

    Go-Mer: "Because you didn't like TPM."

    Quaff: "I like alot of TPM. I was disappointed with the overall result though."

    Go-Mer: "See!"

    TUNE IN LATER FOR THE EXCITING CONTINUATION OF THE PSYCHO-ANALYSIS OF THE CENTURY!!!!!!
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Man my thread was why the server went down? Darn.

    Oh well, since so many people have added other reasons they have or they think others have, it is time to add them to my list.

    Reasons Some People were not blown away by TPM. 2.0

    1) People who cannot stand the "kiddie" or "cute" elements.

    These poor people are jaded by life and can no longer enjoy the simple pleasures the rest of us have no problem with. They have decided to separate themselves from that part of them that would not mind taking a swing in the park. They do this to prove to the world how grown up they are. It is a statement of responsibility. I am not saying that they are bad or anything, just that they will have less and less fun as they continue down this dark and depressing path. They didn't like the Ewoks, and now they have a bone to pick with Jar-Jar's fart and poop jokes. Jedi Galadriel added that some people do not want to share the film with Kids at all. This goes for the film's elements, as well as the idea of sharing a theater with kids. Subnote: Some people are not jaded, but they feel they are above this kind of humor. (is this any better for you Quaff?)

    2) People who did not understand the actual plot of the film.

    These people, fed on horrible SW wannabes like ID4, expect to be able to comprehend everything in one cost effective veiwing. As we know, The Phantom Menace is about a phantom plot. The whole "Sidious=Palpatine is taking over the senate" scenario was totally overshadowed by the superficial battle for Naboo. These poor people will go on and on about how it would have been obvious if it was made well enough. They blame Lucas for the editing, and wonder why every little bit is not spelled out for them and hit over their head. I am not saying these people are wrong, just that they will inevitiably miss out on the incredible depth of this masterfully crafted plot. They simply refuse to try to comprehend it. Many of the early bad reviews fit this category. Go ahead and dig one of them up, and compare their arguments to what was really going on in the film, and you will see they just didn't understand the plot in any way. David Brin is a perfect example. He actually was under the impression that Maul was sent to kill Amidala! He went on and on about how little sense that makes, and how Lucas couldn't write himself out of a paper bag, when he was completely wrong. Maul was sent to retreive Amidala so that she would sign the treaty. After hundreds of fans sent him email about these mistakes he made, he actually took the time to write a follow up article that stood by his original remarks, while citing the "rabid star wars fans" of being delusional in their attempt to enjoy the film.

    3) People who wanted a rehash of the classic trilogy.

    These are the people who wondered where Han and Chewie were. They couldn't understand why Amidala wasn't sassy like Leia. They missed Boba Fett. Again, these are valid desires, but the thing is, Lucas has a story he is trying to tell. He is not just making these movies in an attempt to recreate the formulas of the original trilgoy. At least not narratively speaking. We have a bunch of new characters to get into, and it is arguable that future generations who see the films in order will wonder where the Jar-Jar equivilent is in the classic trilgoy.

    4) People who wanted sequels, not prequels.

    They wanted more exitement than ROTJ. They don't understand that because this is the first part, Lucas has to build up the final prequel episode. Lucas has said that he purposely held back this time to create room for a growing crechendo of intensity. I can understand why people feel this way, but when this saga is complete, it will be the most balanced, well paced series of films ever created. Future generations who get the amazing pleasure of watching these things in proper order will thank George for this approach.

    5) Die-hard fans who thought it should have been different.

    These are probably the most sympathetic of the bunch, because they are truly die-hard fans. They have
  10. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Does it really upset you when I do the line by line responses?

    What is the difference between quoting your points and not quoting your points? I am still going to be commenting on your contribution, and to me, the quote method is great for a variety of reasons.

    1) Anyone reading it can tell who's post I am commenting on, and more specifically, exactly what they said.

    2) It helps me to make sure I am not misreading your post, cause I have it right there as I am writing.

    I guess I could do it the regular way, if it is really making you feel intimidated.

    [This message has been edited by Go-Mer-Tonic (edited 01-08-2000).]
  11. Rebel Scum Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 1999
    star 2
    It's funny seeing the bashers gradually change their minds about TPM.
    Back in May/June they HATED it.Then they just didn't like it,then they just didn't like some of it.Now they just don't care about some of its aspects.



    [This message has been edited by Rebel Scum (edited 01-08-2000).]
  12. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    Do I qualify as a "basher?" Don't know. BASHER sounds so unforgiving and harsh. I am not anti-TPM and I rather resent being labeled as such, especially since there were aspects of the film I enjoyed very much. In fact, most of the posts I've read by the so called "bashers" seemed quite fair minded and thoughtful. The only posters I've read who said they "hated" TPM were trolls who were obviously looking for a reaction. However, I have seen the "bashers" accused of "hating" TPM several times. Of course I haven't been here that long so maybe I missed all the real "basher" diatribe back in May/June.

    Persoanlly, my impressions of TPM really haven't changed that much since I first saw it in June. I will admit that I liked it better the second time I saw it, as I already understood the plot and could concentrate more on the characters, searching for all the subtle emotional undertones (so subtle in some cases that after six viewings I am still unable to "experience" some of those emotionally charged moments the "strong supporters" keep alluding to.)

    *I use "strong supporters" in lieu of "gushers" which I find almost as offensive as "basher."
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg I agree, both of those terms are usually used with contempt.

    I don't mind being called a gusher, and when I say bashers, I am really only talking about the people who think Lucas dropped the ball with TPM.

    I even aknowledge that mistakes were made, but none of them really matter enough to say Lucas dropped the ball.

    In fact, this film has fewer problems than any one of the classic trilogy films.

    When I say problems, I mean special effects that are a tad on the hokey side.

    When it comes to the writing, I cannot find any fault with it. It all sounds fine to me.

    This is a matter of taste, and of course, some disagree with me.

    The biggest complaints are the Yippies, and Exueese me's.

    I know I would not use those words in every day conversation, but I see no reason to say Anakin or Jar-Jar wouldn't.

    Anyway, I do not think there is anything wrong with people who find faults, but when you find enough that it makes you feel let down by the saga, then it is a problem for you. No one wanted to be let down.
  14. Darth Warrick Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 1
    No. 6 to my list (of why some Gushers liked the film)

    The-Never-Really-Got-Star-Wars-In-The-First-Placers

    This group of fan can be characterized by their defense of Menace that centers around belittling the OT while insisting that's REALLY not what they're doing.

    You can identify them by arguments like "There were more problems with the OT than Menace" or "the acting/ directing/ dialog were all just as bad in the OT."

    They convinced themselves Menace was as good as the OT by pretending the OT was just as bad as Menace.
  15. a. block Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 1999
    star 1
    I would like to put in my humble opinion of why some people may have disliked the movie. To start, I would say I was somewhat disappointed in the movie in my initial viewings of the movie. However, when I saw the reissue for the week run in December, I really enjoyed it. I don't know why the change for me.
    I think that the biggest problem is that the movie starts to soon towards some action. It seems that we're starting in the middle of an important event. I think it would have been better to see Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon flying to the Jedi Council from a previous assignment and then they get called to go to the situation to Naboo. During this we could see the interaction of a master and his apprentice. I know that most people don't think that that would be to important (probably only 5-10 minutes on screen), but all great myths usually have a distinct beginning, ala the Bible. That's not to say that I want to see the beginning of the Jedi order or anything like that. I'd just like to learn about what a Jedi is like and what his duties are (what a normal day is) well in advance of anything else.
    The other problem is the loss of the droids as the storytellers. I like that Anakin built 3PO, and keep R2 the main storyteller. I would've liked to see R2 as the first character in the movie and as he interacts with people, the camera then follows the characters, ala Episode IV.
    All of this IMHO.
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Screw it, I can't stop doing the quote by quotes. They are just too much fun to miss out on.

    Darth Warrick This is a great list, but it does have some problems. 1) Mindless Lucas-Loving Sycophants This group of fans are more infatuated with the man than his creations and you can easily identify them whenever you catch someone arguing that "Howard The Duck" was "really a great film."Tatse is relative. I at least aknowledged that those who didn't like the film are not liking it of sound mind and body. It is pretty arrogant to assume that someone of different taste is somehow under some kind of mind control. 2) The Beancounters This group of TPM fans can be easily identified by their insistence is really a great movie because of it's Box Office gross. They usually whither-up and fade away when faced with the very effective "Titanic" counter-argument.Titanic was more successful than TPM. Why do you think it was a bad movie? I loved it. Not because it was sucessful, but because it is a great movie (imho).

    The only time the numbers are brought up, are when the detractors say thet George is alienating his fan base and no one will support him if he continues on this path. Obviously TPM has not hurt his fan base in any way. Sure some are no longer fans, but they have been replaced by new ones. The numbers just prove it's success. Not it's quality. 3) The Title-Crawlers The most non-discerning of TPM apologists these fans would basically accept anything if it was preceeded by the traditional Star Wars title crawl combined with John Williams stirring music. If pressed to find fault with the film they can ususally only resort to Obi's hair switching sides between scenes and only then with great personal trepidation for being critical of the flick on any level.Because TPM was greater than the sum of it's parts to us. There are flaws in TPM, just like there were flaws in the classic trilgoy. I am not apologising for them, because they do not cause any problems in the grand scheme of things. We still have an inredible addition to the saga. The storyline outweights any technical glitch that happened. 4) The Forty Timers These fans proclaim TPM the best because they've seen it forty times.When has anyone said that the number of times they have seen a movie makes it better? People see it over and over, because they loved the film, which is an indicator that the films was great at least to them. Usually the only other films they saw last year were "Blair Witch" and "The Matrix" but no matter- they're qualified to judge what the best film of last year was.I saw all of the films up for best film of the year, and TPM still comes out on top. Sorry I have a different take on things you do, disregard my opinion if yours is the only one you will accept. 5) The The Bugs-Bunnyites These fans are characterized by the complaint that TPM was too "real" and there weren't enough jokes involving Jar Jar and flatuation. Just throw a belching critter into a film and they're in heaven.Who ever said TPM was too real? Seriously I want you to show me that one. This only took place in your mind. Who ever said there wasn't enough Jar-Jar and flatulence jokes? Anyone? Or is this just what you hear in your head when we say we loved Jar-Jar? 6) The-Never-Really-Got-Star-Wars-In-The-First-Placers. This group of fan can be characterized by their defense of Menace that centers around belittling the OT while insisting that's REALLY not what they're doing.

    You can identify them by arguments like "There were more problems with the OT than Menace" or "the acting/ directing/ dialog were all just as bad in the OT."

    They convinced themselves Menace was as good as the OT by pretending the OT was just as bad as Menace.Thats cute and all Warrick, but the thing is, I got what was important about the classic trilgoy to me.

    You are correct when you say I don't get what was important to you about the classic trilgoy.

    You aren't going to say the classic trilgoy was flawless are you? Now who is being delusional?

    The truth is, the ef
  17. Qui Gon Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 1999
    star 1
    Hey a.block, what a great thought! I too agree on the opening of the movie. It does start a little too soon towards action, like we're in the middle of an event and we really don't understand it. That's why I found the opening of the movie less compelling than the rest it. It just didn't grab me in an exciting way. I was having my doubts about the movie at that time, but George made up for it with the Tatooine sequence and Coruscant.
  18. Quaff-Down Gin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 1999
    star 4
    WE NOW REJOIN THE PSYCHO-ANALYSIS OF THE CENTURY!!!!!!

    Quaff: "I told ya."

    Go-Mer: "Told me what?"

    Quaff: "That you had masked your true intentions in the opening post so that you could come across as sympathetic so that we'd list our dislikes enabling you to drop us into your categories and then put a totally negative spin on them to show everyone how you were right about the bad Bashers."

    Go-Mer: "Was it THAT obvious?"

    Quaff: "Yes. It was completely aparrent that this was another 'It's your fault, the problem is with you' threads."

    Go-Mer: "Well, it's scientifically proven than it's your fault you didn't like it."

    Quaff: "Where'd you get this 'proof'?"

    Go-Mer: "Actually, I just made it up."

    Quaff: [smile]

    Go-Mer: "Hey, regardless, if you say why you dislike the films, maybe Lucas will be reading and he will listen to your comments?"

    Quaff: "You actually think I'm gonna take that lame bait? I'm a little more intelligent than that, Go-Mer. Sheesh!"

    Go-Mer: "I know, I know. [shrug] It was worth a try."

    Quaff: "By the way, if you think that your incessant nit-picking of every non-Gusher's thread and the line-by-line intimidation and humiliation tactics you use to badger other members aids your debates with ME or hinders my responses to you with the fear of intellectual and opinionative superiority you think you have over me, think again, Gomey. All it does is fuel my hyperdrive and make me come back bigger, stronger and faster than before."

    Go-Mer: "I'll note that."

    Quaff: "But will you learn from it?"

    Go-Mer: "Learn from what?"

    TUNE IN LATER FOR THE EXCITING CONTINUATION OF THE PSYCHO-ANALYSIS OF THE CENTURY!!!!!!




    [This message has been edited by Quaff-Down Gin (edited 01-08-2000).]
  19. Jedi Warrior Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 24, 1999
    In reply to GMT reasons some people were not blown away by TPM. 2.0

    1) People who cannot stand the "kiddie" or "cute" elements.
    I doubt that. Jar Jar was a bit annoying and distraceted the audience quite a few times.
    2)People who did not understand the actual plot of the film.
    Go-Mer-Tonic I must agree with you. However most bashers here understand the phantom plot.
    3) People who wanted a rehash of the classic trilogy.
    What kind of person wouldn't understand that?
    Give me an example.
    4) posted 01-08-2000 06:51 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Man my thread was why the server went down? Darn.
    Oh well, since so many people have added other reasons they have or they think others have, it is time to add them to my list.

    Reasons Some People were not blown away by TPM. 2.0

    1) People who cannot stand the "kiddie" or "cute" elements.

    These poor people are jaded by life and can no longer enjoy the simple pleasures the rest of us have no problem with. They have decided to separate themselves from that part of them that would not mind taking a swing in the park. They do this to prove to the world how grown up they are. It is a statement of responsibility. I am not saying that they are bad or anything, just that they will have less and less fun as they continue down this dark and depressing path. They didn't like the Ewoks, and now they have a bone to pick with Jar-Jar's fart and poop jokes. Jedi Galadriel added that some people do not want to share the film with Kids at all. This goes for the film's elements, as well as the idea of sharing a theater with kids. Subnote: Some people are not jaded, but they feel they are above this kind of humor. (is this any better for you Quaff?)

    2) People who did not understand the actual plot of the film.

    These people, fed on horrible SW wannabes like ID4, expect to be able to comprehend everything in one cost effective veiwing. As we know, The Phantom Menace is about a phantom plot. The whole "Sidious=Palpatine is taking over the senate" scenario was totally overshadowed by the superficial battle for Naboo. These poor people will go on and on about how it would have been obvious if it was made well enough. They blame Lucas for the editing, and wonder why every little bit is not spelled out for them and hit over their head. I am not saying these people are wrong, just that they will inevitiably miss out on the incredible depth of this masterfully crafted plot. They simply refuse to try to comprehend it. Many of the early bad reviews fit this category. Go ahead and dig one of them up, and compare their arguments to what was really going on in the film, and you will see they just didn't understand the plot in any way. David Brin is a perfect example. He actually was under the impression that Maul was sent to kill Amidala! He went on and on about how little sense that makes, and how Lucas couldn't write himself out of a paper bag, when he was completely wrong. Maul was sent to retreive Amidala so that she would sign the treaty. After hundreds of fans sent him email about these mistakes he made, he actually took the time to write a follow up article that stood by his original remarks, while citing the "rabid star wars fans" of being delusional in their attempt to enjoy the film.

    3) People who wanted a rehash of the classic trilogy.

    These are the people who wondered where Han and Chewie were. They couldn't understand why Amidala wasn't sassy like Leia. They missed Boba Fett. Again, these are valid desires, but the thing is, Lucas has a story he is trying to tell. He is not just making these movies in an attempt to recreate the formulas of the original trilgoy. At least not narratively speaking. We have a bunch of new characters to get into, and it is arguable that future generations who see the films in order will wonder where the Jar-Jar equivilent is in the classic trilgoy.
    4) People who wanted sequels, not prequels.
    Same as 3.
    5) Die-hard fans who thought it should have been different.
    Same as 3.
    6) Those who feel the wri
  20. Darth Scooby Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 1999
    star 4
    Hey, don't get me wrong. I think Quaff can be highly entertaining at times, and I know these back and forths between the two of them have been going on so long that they can probably just copy some of their earlier posts into just about any situation. However, in this instance, the sarcasm was out of the blue. There was absolutely no give and take in this thread to lead to it. Quaff's first post was his little skit.

    Even then, I wouldn't have had a problem with it, except it became all about him:

    Dr. Go-Mer Tonic, Dr. Galadriel and Dr. dehrian, the three most famous psycho-analysts in the Outer Rim Territories, sit smugly in the chairs of Go-Mer's office. Two Royale Guards stand at attention book-ending the entryway as two more enter and throw QDG to the hard, cold metal floor. A disturbing antiseptic smell permaetes the chamber.

    Up until this point, Quaff had not posted in this thread. So the insertion of himself, alone, directly into it like he was being attacked struck me as ludicrous. Again, it was Darth Warrick, Ewan and Druff Maul who were debating the opposite side to GMT. While it is apparent that you would agree with them, I still find it quite arrogant and vain to place yourself in the position of martyr like you did in this situation.

    Darth Warrick

    I like your list. It is about as comprehensive as GMT's. I am sure there are a great many who fit into your categories, especially numbers 1 and 3. Hopefully, most of us have an open mind and are willing to admit when something that we love is changed for the worse. I think reason 2, like GMT said, is not an actual reason, but a rebuttal to those who say SW is losing its fan base. Reason 4 is reverse logic. Those that have seen it 40 times did so because of their love, not the other way around. Reason 5 is obviously a joke, and reason 6 falls into a similar category as reason 2 in that it is not the OT they are belittling, but rather they are showing the similar "holes" in the OT as are proclaimed to be in TPM.

    Lagniappe

    The words basher and gusher do fit certain people. Probably not most of us, though. However, "a rose by any other name ...". (oh, sorry Bowen )
  21. Darth Warrick Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 1
    Okay Gomer and Scooby you've both come a long way towards convincing me of the error of my ways and that TPM supporters can't be easily pigeonholed. I'm having a lot of second thoughts about my list. You have to admit it's a hard job I've presented myself with: trying to come up with a number of reasons people liked the movie other than the objective quality of the film itself.

    However, I'm not totally convinced.

    So...

    Number 7

    The Obi/ Amidala ists- This group of fan is so infatuated with Ewan and Natalie that they see the film over and over just to get a glimpse of the ones that make their hearts pitter patter. To these people the movie is great because of just WHO is in it.



    [This message has been edited by Darth Warrick (edited 01-09-2000).]
  22. GreedoCMZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 1999
    star 4
    It seems like a lot of TPM bashers also forget the just plain silly humor in ESB of C3PO falling apart and yelling at Chewbacca for not putting him together correctly.
  23. scott2eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 1999
    star 4
    Darth Warwick
    I`d say its a pretty good list.

    1) Mindless Lucas-Loving Sycophants This group of fans are more infatuated with the man than his creations and you can easily identify them whenever you catch someone arguing that "Howard The Duck" was "really a great film."
    Well, I guess I fit in this one. ANH is my favourite of the OT, and its the only one Lucas directed. As a result, when I heard that he was directing TPM, the first film he`s directed since ANH, I was happy. When I heard he was directing the next two, I was happy again. I liked Howard the duck, and it has been a contribution to my minor crush on Elizabeth Shue.

    2) The Beancounters This group of TPM fans can be easily identified by their insistence is really a great movie because of it's Box Office gross. They usually whither-up and fade away when faced with the very effective "Titanic" counter-argument.
    Damn. I fit this one again- when people talk about the `faliure` that TPM was, i mention the fact that it set box office records.

    3) The Title-Crawlers The most non-discerning of TPM apologists these fans would basically accept anything if it was preceeded by the traditional Star Wars title crawl combined with John Williams stirring music. If pressed to find fault with the film they can ususally only resort to Obi's hair switching sides between scenes and only then with great personal trepidation for being critical of the flick on any level.
    Me again. I was very excited about seeing the title crawl, with the words "Episode 1: The Phantom Menace" coming up, on the big screen, followed by lightsaber battles and Jedi and stuff. Having never seen a Jedi in action, it was one of the things I new we would see, and I got excited about it.
    That said, I was more excited about what came after the crawl.

    4) The Forty Timers These fans proclaim TPM the best because they've seen it forty times. Usually the only other films they saw last year were "Blair Witch" and "The Matrix" but no matter- they're qualified to judge what the best film of last year was.
    Well, I`m definately out of this one. I only saw it four times. I wouldnt say it was the best film of the year, though. However, I would say it is as good as the other Star Wars films, and fitted in well with my view of the Star Wars universe.

    5) The The Bugs-Bunnyites These fans are characterized by the complaint that TPM was too "real" and there weren't enough jokes involving Jar Jar and flatuation. Just throw a belching critter into a film and they're in heaven.
    No, not me either. Never seen one, either.

    6) The-Never-Really-Got-Star-Wars-In-The-First-Placers
    This group of fan can be characterized by their defense of Menace that centers around belittling the OT while insisting that's REALLY not what they're doing.
    You can identify them by arguments like "There were more problems with the OT than Menace" or "the acting/ directing/ dialog were all just as bad in the OT."
    They convinced themselves Menace was as good as the OT by pretending the OT was just as bad as Menace.
    I think this is a misunderstanding- I have seen this reaction (and reacted like this) when the dialogue of TPM is criticised, when there were worse lines in the OT. Star Wars was never about Shakespearian speeches, and it would bother me if that changed.

    (Theres nothing that annoys me more than watching one of the videos with a bunch of friends when someone insists on reciting the dialogue a split second before the tape.)

    7) The Obi/ Amidala ists- This group of fan is so infatuated with Ewan and Natalie that they see the film over and over just to get a glimpse of the ones that make their hearts pitter patter. To these people the movie is great because of just WHO is in it.
    I imagine they`re out there...
  24. flagg Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 1999
    star 1
    I don't think you can put bashers or gushers into easy categories. I actually respect the bashers for at least thinking through their problems with TPM. They're not the same as the critics who saw it once and dismissed it as a toy and video game commercial.
    I sympathise with some of the bashers' problems, even though I don't agree with most of them. If the next two Episodes were made the same way as TPM, I'd be disappointed, too. The kiddie cartoon approach was okay for one movie, and helped it appeal to a new generation, but Lucas needs to give us something different for the next two. If TPM was the ROTJ of the new saga, than hopefully we have the equivalent of ANH and ESB to look forward to. But Lucas is going to make the films he wants - we can't change that.
    If there were people who 'forced' themselves to like TPM, there were just as many who decided they would hate it before it even came out. There was no way Lucas could make a movie that lived up to the one people had been dreaming about for 16 years. Looking at it objectively, TPM is superior to Jedi, but Jedi didn't have as big a weight of expectation. I see different flaws in all the films, but I love them all the same. What's wrong with that?
    BTW, I'm not a Lucas-sycophant, but I like Howard the Duck. Twas better than Austin Powers: The Spy Who Conned Me Into Seeing His Crap Sequel
  25. Andrusys Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 1998
    star 3
    Here are my top three reasons why TPM is my least favorite Star Wars film:

    1) I miss the banter.
    I didn?t really realize this until I watched the OT just recently. I love the constant back and forth that exists between Han, Luke, Chewie and company. This aspect is very much missing in TPM. Now, it may not be appropriate for Episode 1, but that doesn?t mean I don?t miss it.

    2) It keeps reminding me it?s a movie.
    When I watch the OT, there are very few things that pull me out and remind me I am watching a film. (Among the things that do are the very ?early 80?s? feel of cloud and the ?Muppety? aliens in Jabba?s palace). However, in TPM I am constantly reminded that I am watching a film. One reason is the modern catch phrases that are uttered by some of the characters such as ?Ex-squeez-me?, ?How wude? and ?That?s gotta hurt!? Even more so, though, are the CG characters. I am unable to see them as anything else but sophisticated cartoons. So what is the difference between CG characters and silly rubber mask aliens? I?m not quite sure. Maybe it?s because I grew up with the rubber masks. Maybe it is the way the rubber mask aliens interact with the environment. Maybe the CG characters are just too perfect. I really don?t know.

    3) I have matured, and wanted Star Wars to mature with me.
    I remember reading before TPM was released a statement by Mr. Lucas in which he said that the prequel trilogy would be much less action oriented and much more character driven. When I read this, it spawned ideas in my head of a very complicated and character driven set of films, more so than the OT was. But in my opinion, TPM has about the same level of character development and the OT, if not less. Perhaps Ep2 and 3 will be this way, but TPM was not what I was expecting. That is not to say that Mr. Lucas should have made a different film. He made the film he wanted, and that is how it should be. I maintain that the worst thing he could do is start listening to folks like us. But my expectations have and will continue to color my feeling on the film.
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