How did the Empire build up between ANH-ESB?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Osto, Jan 8, 2000.

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  1. Ivanova Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2000
    This is an extremely hard one to choose. I tend to group battles together, evaluating lightsaber battles different from ship to ship battles, for example. I guess I'm more partial to lightsaber battles than the others, so I'll have to choose from one of them.

    The two that come to mind that I really liked was the battle between Luke, Luuke, Mara, and C'baoth in The Last Command, and the one with Corran and the Yuuzhan Vong in Onslaught. I also liked the one in Vision of the Future where Luke and Mara have to fight back to back in Thrawn's clone room.

    If I have to choose just one of those, I guess it'd be the one with Corran and the Yuuzhan Vong. It had slightly more emotional impact on me than the others.
  2. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    EEEEP! good catagory....could ya have narrowed it down some?? i'm overwhelmed....

    after 5 seconds of consideration ( ) i will go with the space dogfight scene in I, Jedi when corran takes on RS. sweet.

    i'm sure someone can come up with something better....but this thread needs more votes!!
  3. Jaded Skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 24, 1999
    star 4
    sorry about the way too wide range of nominees. There are just sooo many good ones and I din't want to leave any of them out.
  4. Young Ben Kenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2000
    I haven't read some of the books lately enough to remember all the fights and just how cool they were, but the ones that are still fresh in my head are these:

    best lightsaber fight: Luke on Belkaden with the two lightsabers as he came in to save Jacen's whiny butt. Not only did he single-handedly finish off those YV, he also sparked some respect from Jacen. And Mara seemed pretty impressed, or at least from what she had heard.

    hmm...

    I thought the space battle that was pretty good was the one in I, Jedi[/i] when Corran had to fly against Tycho when he was with the Invids. Maybe that wasn't technically a battle, but I remembered liking it.


    YBK
  5. SilverSabre Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 1999
    It would definitely have to be the Luke Skywalker dual lightsaber fight in the attempt and success of saving Jacen. That would be a killer scene to do in a movie.
  6. kresie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 1999
    ooo, this was a hard one. But after a thinking hard, I really can't come up with anything better than Corran vs. RS in I, Jedi. It might not have been an epic battle that determined the fate of the universe, but it's still my favorite fighting scene.
  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg Great threads never die.
  8. Sith_Prime Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 1
    http://www.angelfire.com/tx/fuel2fire/images/maul5.jpg

    I just discovered this post.

    Go-Mer-Tonic, why did you not like Alien 3 or Alien Resurrection? Why did you not like Batman Forever or Batman and Robin?


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Go-Mer-Tonic: It is not so hard to understand people liking some films in a series.
    I loved Alien and Aliens, but could pretty much care less about the third and fouth chapters. And don't even get me started on the Batman series decline after the second Tim Burton directed film.

    Why did you consider Independence Day a horrible SW wannabes?

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Go-Mer-Tonic: These people, fed on horrible SW wannabes like ID4, expect to be able to comprehend everything in one cost effective veiwing.

  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    http://dave.itsgames.com/gt.jpg ID4 was a perfect example of the exact opposite method of making a filme from the example of the SW films.

    ID4 was all concept and no substance. There is no bigger picture to be found in the seams. I can understand dealing with weak plot elements, but when you have the main character save the day by using his Apple notebook to uplink a virus to an alien computer system that would actually work on that alien computer system, well, then someone got tired, and just spit out the resolution.

    It was alot like they thought it would be cool to blow up a bunch of well known landmarks, figured aliens would be cool, and just made the movie from there. They added a bunch of ancilary cut-out characters, and then at the end they finally realized that they had no idea how the humans would win, just that they should.

    The Alien series was great up unil 3. The thing I had a problem with in 3, is that it was no longer beleivable. The whole lets have an alien for all purposes mutation bit was a little lame.

    Now the 4rth film was actually very cool, until they fired the director. His vision was very repsectible, but when it came to the finalie, where there was going to be an Alien Human rape scene, they chickened out, and tacked on that ridiculous newborn thingy.

    I guess I can still enjoy all of the films to an extent, but unlike the SW series, the last two are no where near as good ans the first two.

    I was all into the Batman series. change the actor, I could care less, pack in the cheesey one liners, all the better.

    But when it actually turned into Batman retold through the ice capades, I actually ended up leaving the theater.

    I still dig the art design, but the story was completely sacraficed in favor of the flash.
  10. Sith_Prime Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 1
    http://www.angelfire.com/tx/fuel2fire/images/maul5.jpg Go-Mer-Tonic, thanks for sharing your opinions about the other movies.

  11. TPMrules23 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2000
    star 5
    Hey, Leia's Starboard Hair Bun:
    you wrote this- "TPM: Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan & Anakin (approx. 30 seconds), Anakin & Amidala (2 scenes), Palpatine & Universe (3-4 scenes)."

    The thing is, there is a lot more than just 2 scenes for the friendship of Annie and Padme. 1) The scene where they meet.
    2) When Annie shows Padme 3PO
    3) The scene on the cruiser as they go to Coruscant.
    4) When Annie goes looking for Padme on Coruscant.
    Then there are more subtle clues to their friendship, Annie and Padme riding on the eopie, the dinner scene, Annie, in case you noticed, starting the ship because Padme was under fire. If it was not for his friendship with Padme, he never would have blown up the TF station, he would have sat there the whole time. And then there is the smile Padme gives Annie on Coruscant, and the smile Annie gives Padme at the celebration. THIS IS A LOT MORE THAN JUST 2 SCENES!! Try looking for more subtle hints. That is what this prequel trilogy is all about. Its not nearly as straightforward as the OT, and some people may get lost in the subtlety and foreshadowing.
  12. johnpgreen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 1999
    star 1
    (sorry if this post has appears multiple times.)

    A long time ago, in a post a few scroll's up...


    One of the ideas Leia's Buns brings up is that TPM relies on the audience's
    knowledge of the SW universe from the OT for TPM's events to really have any
    impact. I pretty much believe this to be true.

    In TPM we never get an explanation of what the Jedi are or what the Force is, or
    what the ideals of the Jedi are, or anything like that. These were all things
    introduced very well in ANH, and if by any chance you never saw the OT and don't
    know what the Force is, you won't learn by watching TPM.

    The story of TPM may take place before ANH, but it doesn't feel like it was made
    that way. It still feels like it was made with the knowledge of the OT being
    required to fully understand and enjoy what's going on.

    Also, if, for the first time, people were to watch the movies chronologically,
    there's a lot that wouldn't make sense. Obi Wan mentions "Master Yoda" in TPM.
    But if you haven't seen ESB, you wouldn't be thinking "Oh, that Yoda guy he
    mentions must've been his master BEFORE Qui-Gon." Then, come ESB, when Obi-Wan
    says Yoda taught him, you'd be thinking "Wait, didn't Qui-Gon teach him?"

    That line in TPM is there entirely to justify something we already know because
    of ESB.

    And is Yoda's name ever mentioned in Yoda's presence? Or Mace's? I can't recall,
    but I don't think they were. How would anyone know that Yoda IS Yoda if we never
    saw the OT? We wouldn't know who Obi is referring to at the beginning of TPM,
    and even when Anakin mentions "Yoda said something about midichlorians" he could
    just as well be talking about Samuel Jackson.

    There are plenty of things in TPM that make it a good beginning to a larger
    story. But GL certainly didn't make it as if he was making the first ever Star
    Wars film, and I think that's a big problem.

    To some degree, it reminds me of Indy and the Temple of Doom. That movie
    actually takes place before Raiders, but was made after. In "Doom" there's a
    moment when Indy is faced by two sword-wielding arab types. Indy casually
    reaches for his gun, which isn't there because Willie lost it earlier in the
    movie. The scene if funny, but it is relevent because it is referencing the
    scene in Raiders when Indy is confronted by the sword-wielding arab and just
    casually shoots him. If you were to watch the films chronologically, scenes like
    that lose some of their impact, which is the problem with TPM. If you watched
    the SW movies for the first time chronologically, the impact of the characters
    and the overall events have a lot less impact on the viewer. The relevence of
    many of TPM's events don't kick in until after seeing the whole story. That
    might work for a movie like Sixth Sense where there are a lot of scenes that
    take on new meaning because of the twist at the end, but 1) this isn't the kind
    of movie GL is making and 2) it makes TPM a throwaway movie if it's not relevent
    until other chapters kick in.
    Now, Indy wasn't made as a "saga" as SW is, but because of GL's involvement,
    there are things that concern me. When they were writing "Doom" and came up with
    Shortround, did GL or Spielberg ever stop and think "Aren't people going to
    wonder why he wasn't in Raiders since Doom takes place before it?" Maybe they
    did, maybe they didn't. Maybe GL said "Oh, there's a million reasons why
    Shortround wouldn't be with Indy in Raiders, so there's no reason to address
    it." Is it possible that's the kind of attitude GL will have with the prequels?
    Could he have said to himself "Anyone who's gonna see TPM has already seen the
    OT, so there's no reason for me to establish who Yoda is, or what the Force is,
    or what exactly the Jedi are." Could GL be thinking "There are a million reasons
    why C-3PO wouldn't remember Tatooine, so there's no reason to bring it up."

    These are things that may not need to be explained in a "non-saga" series like
    the Indy movies, but for the Star Wars films, films that essentially make up ONE
    WHOLE STORY, these things ARE important. GL shouldn't rely on the audiences
    knowledge from the OT when
  13. TPMrules23 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2000
    star 5
    Johnpgreen- I disagree, I think if people hadn't seen the OT, they would be more prone to being attached to the new characters. People are so obsessed with the OT characters that they do not realize that the new ones are just as great(and better in some cases).
  14. Lagniappe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    TMPrules23,

    I'm not sure that johnpgreen was trying to say that people could not connect with the newer characters. I believe his point was that there was a lot of background information that viewers were assumed to possess from having viewed the OT at some point. I have to agree. However, I think Lucas was probably correct in making such an assumption. It would be interesting to know how many members of the audience HAD NOT seen any of the OT movies before watching TPM... even young children I know had seen the originial films during the recent re-release. I think those of us who did have backgound knowledge of the OT might have gotten somewhat bored if we had been required to sit through ecxplanations of "the Force" and "Yoda" etc, even though in the long run, in order to see the movies in te order they were intended, it would make sense for TPM to explain such things.

    As for characters, I really liked the TPM characters. I think they were wonderful creations of George's rich imagination. My complaint is that they weren't fully utilized. Face it, Lucas's chosen focus is NOT on characterization (as much as I wish it were). He has chosen to focus most of his attention upon pushing the envelope of CGI and special effects further in TPM... and that is his right, as much as I and others might wish otherwise.

    Note: there IS a different between creating great characters and characterization - they are not the same.
  15. JENNI GALLIA Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2000
    First off let me say I love the OT and I will defend TPM to the end. However I feel the anticipation for this movie was so great that some can't help being disapointed. It is like a kid at Christmas he can't wait to open his gifts but once he has there is almost a sense of disapointment cause the waiting is over and maybe he didn't get all he wanted. I think that is how this movie is for some people.

    I waited for this movie with great anticipation going to the web sites getting all the news, trying to avoid the spoilers, I even went to the Fan celebration in Denver. I was very hyped for this movie, we went and camped out for tickets, It was just a good time and a great feeling. My friends and I use to have discussions about what if we don't like it? What if it is not good? I used to just smile and say "When it comes to Star Wars how could Lucas go wrong"

    The first time I saw it I LOVED IT, it had such a feel to it like that of the OT. On a down side though after a few viewings it lost it's excitment for me and I started to worry cause I have always been a die hard Star Wars fan. I started to doubt and wonder if I only liked it because it bore the Star Wars name then I thought maybe I had just seen it too many times. My boyfriend who is a total gusher has a hard time having a converstaion with anyone without bringing up TPM and I was just plain tired of it all around. OH SAD DAY!!!!! I still can not put my finger on it but it just doesn't have what the OT had.

    Maybe I was just disapointed like that kid at Christmas cause I excittment of waiting was over and I DIDN'T get all I wanted.
    I did run out and buy it on video and if anyone says anything bad about it I am all over them but, I can see their point too.

    I would never bash the film but, I can't see myself gushing over it to much either so where does this leave me. Any help here would be hot!

  16. JENNI GALLIA Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2000
    First off let me say I love the OT and I will defend TPM to the end. However I feel the anticipation for this movie was so great that some can't help being disapointed. It is like a kid at Christmas he can't wait to open his gifts but once he has there is almost a sense of disapointment cause the waiting is over and maybe he didn't get all he wanted. I think that is how this movie is for some people.

    I waited for this movie with great anticipation going to the web sites getting all the news, trying to avoid the spoilers, I even went to the Fan celebration in Denver. I was very hyped for this movie, we went and camped out for tickets, It was just a good time and a great feeling. My friends and I use to have discussions about what if we don't like it? What if it is not good? I used to just smile and say "When it comes to Star Wars how could Lucas go wrong"

    The first time I saw it I LOVED IT, it had such a feel to it like that of the OT. On a down side though after a few viewings it lost it's excitment for me and I started to worry cause I have always been a die hard Star Wars fan. I started to doubt and wonder if I only liked it because it bore the Star Wars name then I thought maybe I had just seen it too many times. My boyfriend who is a total gusher has a hard time having a converstaion with anyone without bringing up TPM and I was just plain tired of it all around. OH SAD DAY!!!!! I still can not put my finger on it but it just doesn't have what the OT had.

    Maybe I was just disapointed like that kid at Christmas cause I excittment of waiting was over and I DIDN'T get all I wanted.
    I did run out and buy it on video and if anyone says anything bad about it I am all over them but, I can see their point too.

    I would never bash the film but, I can't see myself gushing over it to much either so where does this leave me. Any help here would be hot!

  17. The Gatherer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 6
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