CT How did Vader Defeat Palpatine so easily in ROTJ ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by PadawanGussin, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    The most powerful Sith Lord on 1000 years was tossed down a reator shaft with realitive ease. And did not seem to defend himself.

    My own take...

    Palpitine was so enraged by Vaders betrayal that he got a case of tunnel vision.

    Instead of protecting himself his rage lead him to only focus on killing Vader.
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  2. darkspine10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2014
    star 5
    Palpatine never expected Vader to turn on him. As far as he was concerned, Vader was his unwaveringly loyal pawn, and had been for that's 2 decades. Additionally, Palpatine was distracted with trying to kill Luke. When Vader grabbed him, he was caught completely off guard, with no time react, and couldn't have directly aimed at Vader anyway.
  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    How was Palpatine supposed to protect himself once he was in Vader's (one handed) mechanical grasp? Palpatine was hitting Vader with lightning to kill him so he would fall, and Palpatine could get loose. What else is there to do? What do you think he should have done?
  4. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2017
    star 2
    Palpatine did what he could -- he fried Vader with enough Force lightning that it killed him. But how do you stop a man who doesn't care about his own life, if sacrificing it would save someone he loves?
  5. All_Powerful_Jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine's overconfidence was his weakness. Vader turning on him was the last thing he ever expected.

    That's what makes that scene so great. You have Vader and Luke engaged in a physical battle, with Luke and Emperor engaged in a mental one (belief in Anakin vs belief in Vader), which eventually is the catalyst for the Sith destroying each other.
  6. realjim949 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2017
    star 1
    I was gonna post something when I saw the thread title, but now I don’t need to. I couldn’t have said it any better myself.
  7. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    The emotiomal battle between Luke, Vader and what remained of Anakin was also brilliant.
  8. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    We know from ROTS how fast and strong Palpjtine was, that when Anakin first arrived during the battle between Palpitine and Mace all Anakun could see wrw flashs of light due to the speed Palpitine and Mace were moving.

    He also had Force scream and xould pull entire hoverpods out of the wall of rhe senate chamber. In some of the novels his abilities went even further.

    So to simply say Vader pinned him while injured and one handed, to me, is a bit too easy an answer.
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  9. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2017
    star 2
    But did we know that in 1983?
  10. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

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    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    One of the things that make Star Wars a very deep and interesting universe is how long it has neen around and how we can now look back at the OT in a new way.
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  11. Steve McGarrett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2017
    The stuff we see in the PT sometimes makes stuff in the OT look a bit absurd or else the stuff in the PT looks absurd relative to what happens in the OT. It's like Yoda tottering in on a walking stick because that's how he was in the OT and then letting loose like a mosquito on steroids with a lightsabre. That's not a criticism of either set of films by the way, just the reality of them being made at such different times and with such different expectations.
  12. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    <Language Warning>

    Sometimes just one all or nothing move is all it takes to knock the bully out. Also, I think Palpatine unleashed the foogin' fury in Anakin.
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  13. Master_Rebado Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2004
    star 4
    " I mean it all right. John F. Kennedy said all someone needs is a willingness to trade his life for the President's, right?"

    - Mitch Leary (In the Line of Fire) 1993
  14. Ithorians Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2016
    star 2
    I think Vader´s act is meant to be extraordinary to begin with. His suit got fried by the Emperor´s lightning indeed, but we´ve seen what happened to Mace Windu, Yoda, or Luke himself when hit with it. The fact that Vader could receive all that barrage and still carry Palpatine over his head and throw him was something I don´t believe the Emperor thought possible: he underestimated the true power of his apprentice, and that was finally his undoing.

    Besides, it´s one of the most powerful scenes in the whole saga; I´m really glad they took that approach instead of any kind of duel full of pyrotechnics.
  15. themoth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2015
    star 4
    1. Palaptine was focused on frying Luke
    2. It took him by surprise
    3. Vader was determined to save his son

    In that moment, Palpatine only really had his force lightning, and he made sure some of it hit Anakin.
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  16. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2014
    star 3
    I wouldn't change a thing about how things go down between the Emperor and Vader in Return of the Jedi.

    If you take the prequels at face value, one of the few things we saw actually hurt Palpatine is having his own lightening reflect back on him.

    So why did the Emperor keep using his lightening after Vader picked him up. Is Palpatine getting hit also? Is it possible Darth Vader's suit actually gave him some protection against the lightening? Where a regular person's muscles would make them collapse - Vader's robot parts aren't affected the same way.
    Last edited by Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid, Sep 10, 2017
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  17. themoth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2015
    star 4
    I think the opposite is true. I'm sure Palpatine deliberately gave Vader a clumsier sort of suit that was more susceptible to force lightning, so he could end him right then and there if he desired. That makes sense, considering the level of power Vader had, and Palpatine not wanting to be overthrown. Palpatine spent time trying to replace Vader while Vader spent time trying to figure out how to overthrow him. Both looked at Luke Skywalker as the answer to their goals.
    Last edited by themoth, Sep 11, 2017
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  18. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    One of the more interesting things about Yoda is his absolute refused to use the Force for and type of personal gain but only in the service of others.
  19. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 6

    You know how an electric shock can cause muscles to contract so you can't let go of the thing that's shocking you? I think what happened to Sheev was kind of like that. He was shocking Vader with all his power, but Vader was touching him, so a lot of the power was flowing right back into Palps. His instinctive reaction would be to call on the dark side of the Force to protect himself, but that Dark power simply manifested itself as more lightning, so he inadvertently set up a vicious circle of a feedback loop. He couldn't stop even when he was falling down the shaft. That's my theory.
  20. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2014
    star 3
    As @Sarge pointed out, electricity makes muscles contract. A flesh and blood person wouldn't be able to control their body to keep moving and throw Palpatine. Maybe Vader's life support is irreversibly damaged after the attack, but in the moment his cybernetic arms and legs could be what allowed him to throw the Emperor.
    down the reactor shaft. Vader made a better stand against the lightening than anyone else we saw get hit by it. If Vader weren't more machine than man in that moment could he have defeated the Emperor?

    @Sarge I agree with you that as soon as Vader grabbed the Emperor it created a loop so they were both being shocked. The odd thing is, in the movie we don't expressly see that. The way it's cut lives some of it ambiguous. Still it makes the most sense to me, and the entire action on Vader's part is just a few second. In Episode 3, I'm not so sure how much of the Emperor's fight with Mace Windu is real and how much is theatrics for Anakin's sake. It is interesting that it's Palpatine's own lightening which melts his face. Maybe it actually is one of his weaknesses.
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  21. wobbits Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2017
    star 2
    I just wanted to say this was an awesome post. Couldn't have worded it any better.
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  22. themoth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2015
    star 4
    Good point. I think that's what happened. Vader could push through lightning but it would still ultimately kill him, as ROTJ showed.
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  23. Ithorians Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2016
    star 2
    I´ve always felt this same way!!! I get the feeling Palpatine couldn´t stop... even when he´s going down the shaft, he´s still throwing his lightning for a while. Even if he was indeed on the receiving end of his immense power, it was his only chance to escape, or at the very least to get some revenge at his executioner...

    @wobbits that´s very kind, thanks a lot! I´m glad it made sense!! :D
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  24. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2014
    star 3

    What's interesting is other characters could survive the amount of lightening Vader was hit with but would be knocked off there feet or unable to control their bodies the moment the lightening hit them. Which means Palpatine still lives. Now part of Vader is still flesh and blood, so it no doubt took tremendous effort and will power to throw Palpatine. But it's very possible if Vader was not cut down by Obi-Wan all those years early and had the aid of robotic limbs - he might not have been able to save Luke at all.

    That might have been the only way to kill Palpatine and Vader was the only one both physically and for the position he's in at that moment to be able to do it.
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  25. themoth Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2015
    star 4
    Another good point. I've read other theories which state how in a twisted way, Anakin brought true balance to the Force because he helped kill nearly all the Jedi. There's only one Jedi left now (Luke), with no Sith but dark side users like Kylo. Really fascinating when you think about it.
    Last edited by themoth, Sep 11, 2017