CT How did Vader Defeat Palpatine so easily in ROTJ ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by PadawanGussin, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    In the case of Maxe's fight with palpitine mace was using a form of lghtsaber combat called Vaapad. This form demands that one who uses it channel the Dark side into their fighting style while not allowing this darkness to overpower them. This connection bwtween dark side energies is what caused the feedback loop causing Palpitines injuries.

    There is also a theory that years of Dark Side use had already deformed Palpitines face and that he was using a form of dark side alchemy to take a more normal appearance. The feedback loop during the fight canceled out that alchemy.

    I don't have the novel handy nut in ROTS Palpitne does comment of how Sidious true face would do from that time on.

    Interestingly mix the dark side red saber and a blue jedi saber and you get the purple of Maces saber,
  2. Django Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 4
    The Force-lightening arcs back from Vader into Palpatine, just as it damages Vader it also does the same to Palpatine in the same way it did when he fought Mace. But the most obvious thing about how Vader defeats Palpatine is surprise, Vader has returned to his master's side, Palpatine has no sense that Vader has reached his breaking point as he's so obsessed with inflicting pain on Luke.

    This comes into why Vader's "noooooo!!!" was so wrong, it would've given Palps some sort of warning.
  3. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2017
    star 2
    Exactly. It breaks the entire tone of the scene. The very reason why it was added. An argument against Special Editions more powerful than anything George Lucas said to Congress in 1988.
    Last edited by Nibelung, Sep 12, 2017
  4. Rickleo123 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2016
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    Unfortunately, seeing Palps jump into the sky and do a 360 twirl while battling 5 Jedi and cutting them all down with ease does retcon his ROTJ death in major ways. I mean it makes no sense that Vader was able to so easily dispatch of him like nameless goon in 15 seconds.

    I'm assuming if that ROTJ scene was done after the prequels Vader would have force pulled Luke's lightasber to his hand, used it to deflect the lighting back at Palps as Mace did and then while he's temporarily out of it, Luke and Vader use their combined powers to overwhelm him and cut him down. It really makes sense that it would take the combined might of father and son to dispatch a Sith Lord as powerful as Palpatine.
    Steve McGarrett likes this.
  5. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

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    Sep 6, 2017
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    Here are 2 vids that discuss why even a very strong Force user, particularly one using Dark Side powers might not be able to see a threat very close to them.

    They do not specifically deal with Vader and Palp in ROTJ but I thought they might be interesting as part of this thread.



  6. Steve McGarrett Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2017
    In my OT head canon both Yoda and The Emperor are quite weak physically, which explains why they both hobble about on walking sticks and why Vader can manhandle The Emperor down the ventilation shaft in ROTJ. They have great power in other aspects of the Force but not much in the way of physical power. If you could find a way to bypass their other powers and engage them in a purely physical way, you had a fairly good chance against them. Vader was able to do this because The Emperor's overconfidence in having Vader in hand and focus on destroying Luke made him vulnerable. That always made good sense to me.
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  7. themoth Jedi Master

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    Dec 5, 2015
    star 4
    I love how Palpatine knows Vader is by his side while he's electrocuting Luke. "Yeah, I wanted Luke to kill you and take your place, but you know that's how I roll. Let's continue as if nothing happened."
  8. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    The Emperor was probably rattled after hearing how the Ewoks were taking down his best troops with ease. Even if he defeated Luke and Vader he knew it was just a matter of time before the true power in the galaxy got to him. This overwhelming fear let Vader finish the job in a relatively easy manner.
    Steve McGarrett likes this.
  9. Dandelo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2014
    star 7
    yeah I was just about to mention that I brought it all before the inclusion of Vaders "NOOOOO" giving Palpatine a huge hint to his intentions. I think at this point I'd have preferred "NOOOOOOOOOOOO...I left the oven on" if there was a compulsive need for a change.
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  10. Finland Skywalker Jedi Padawan

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    Nov 13, 2016
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    Anakin was the one who killed Palpatine not Vader.
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  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10

    Only if Palpatine is paying attention, which he is not.


    It doesn't need to be a big fight. The point that Lucas and Kasdan were going for was that Palpatine cannot win against the power of love between a father and a son, and he is taken unaware and can only do what he does to defend himself.
  12. Django Fett Jedi Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
    star 4
  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    When Vader yells no, he immediately picks up Palpatine. The first no is low and barely audible. The second one is right when he picks him up.



    @1:47.
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  14. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    Did somebody actually just defend the BluRay RotJ Nooo ???

    My gawd. Lucas could have had Vader do a Michael Jackson scream


    pick up the Emperor, moonwalk to the shaft with a couple of these on the way
    [IMG]

    throw the Emperor down the shaft, go for a crotch grab only to realize he's missing his hand and then sing "Remember the Time" to Luke as he dies ....

    and we'd still have a few people actually defend it.

    When I first heard rumors of the RotJ Vader Nooo, I seriously thought it was just somebody making up a joke exaggeration of the special edits. That even Lucas wouldn't go that far. It ruined the best moment of movie on the only hi-res copy available. It is why I never bought the BluRay release, and I had purchased every Star Wars release before that one.

    And yes, the No not only ruins the great "silent film" thoughts in Vaders head (infinitely more emotional), but it ruins the "one moment Vader had to successfully kill the Emperor."
  15. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    Could the "No" been in Vaders mind and not spoken out loud?
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  16. Django Fett Jedi Master

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  17. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
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    If I watch the SE again, I'm going to remember that idea. Might make it a bit more palatable.
  18. Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2016
    star 3

    The Emperor was so let down before that. He was surprised that Luke did not want to join him by his side at this point Luke should have been witnessing the fleet battle before them instead Luke was riding with pain on the floor. It seemed incredibly to the Emperor that Luke would still be alive. If Luke was to be a Jedi and not a Sith than Vader should have detected this and killed him.

    The Emperor saw Vader as somewhat of an enigma not quite fully a Jedi or a Sith he was almost like a surrogate son of the Emperor so what Vader did to him was like what you would do to your own flesh and blood. The Emperor wanted more sons or daughters to add to his collection or others that would proliferate the Sith vision of the galaxy so when the Emperor was slain by Vader it was the end of the Sith line the Jedi were back and fighting strong. Anakin's Jedi energy kicked in instinctively kind of like waking up out of bad dream.
    Last edited by Bob the X-Winger, Sep 14, 2017
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    It makes me laugh that you get so bent out of shape over something so trivial. If Matrix were here, he'd laugh too.
  20. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2017
    star 2
    It makes me sad that a moderator is cruelly laughing at the personal preference of a viewer (especially in an instance where AFAIK Lucas deliberately made the film worse).
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  21. Bazinga'd Porg Overlord of the WNU, CT, and Saga Forums

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    A couple points here:

    (1) @darth-sinister is a former staff member, as designated by his title "Manager Emeritus". He does not possess moderator powers anymore.

    (2) Your comment is essentially derailing the thread and is a poor attempt at mini-modding.

    (3) If @anakinfansince1983 or myself believed that darth-sinister was conducting himself in a manner inconsistent with the TOS and rules governing VIPs (i.e., former moderators) we would address it and it would be done in private.

    (4) End of Discussion. Get this thread back on topic.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  22. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

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    I believe the rules state VIPs are held to a higher standard.
  23. Bazinga'd Porg Overlord of the WNU, CT, and Saga Forums

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    They do and VIPs are in fact held to a higher standard. But I would advise you to re-read my comments (3) and (4).
    Last edited by Bazinga'd, Sep 14, 2017
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  24. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2017
    star 2
    MOD Edit: Deleted for derailing thread

    [IMG]

    But I digress. How diquesd Vader defeat Palpatine so easily in ROTJ again? Especially since Palpatine is such a master of CGI-assisted wire-fu lightsaber battles?
    Last edited by Bazinga'd, Sep 14, 2017
  25. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    to get back to the topic -

    I found this vid on how any why Palpitine was able to defeat the 4 Jedi masters that came to arrest him.

    While Vader is not discussed , it does show some of the reasons Palp was so powerful and how strong Vader must have been in the moment to defeat him.

    Please respect others who may have a differing view.

    Jester J Binks likes this.