How do Yoda and Obi-Wan escape the Clutches of Evil?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Garth Maul, Jan 31, 2004.

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  1. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
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    Just curious to see everyone's theories.

    Some think Vader was well aware that Obi-Wan was alive and/or that he was living on Tatooine.

    I personally don't buy it. Ani/Vader doesn't seem the type of person to leave his friends or enemies alone - if he knew Obi-Wan was still alive and possibly that he was looking after Luke, I can't see him staying away for the next 20 years - he'd be obsessed with Luke as the "last" member of his family.

    Most people think neither Palps nor Vader knew of Yoda's existence - I'm sure they wouldn't let The Big Cheese stick around on an acreage somewhere.

    Another question - if Vader did let Obi-Wan go, is there any way he could hide the knowledge from Palps?

    You'd think Palps would want Vader to kill his former Master - it would further tighten Palps' grip on his apprentice.

    So anyway, my theory is that neither Palps nor Vader know Yoda and Obi-Wan survive. But who knows?

  2. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    I think Vader and Palpatine both thought Obi-Wan and Yoda were long dead and had just become parts of the past. As for how will they escape in the first place? I think it will probably be with the help of Mace.
  3. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    I'm also going to be interested to see the point when Yoda realises he really can't do anything to stop what's going to happen with the Empire and the Jedi.
  4. Crispy_Fried_Dentic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2003
    star 2
    Some think Vader was well aware that Obi-Wan was alive and/or that he was living on Tatooine.

    I personally don't buy it. Ani/Vader doesn't seem the type of person to leave his friends or enemies alone - if he knew Obi-Wan was still alive and possibly that he was looking after Luke, I can't see him staying away for the next 20 years - he'd be obsessed with Luke as the "last" member of his family


    I think Vader knew Obi-Wan was alive. I don't see how he can think Obi is dead without having killed him himself. To think that a pivotal Jedi like Obi was simply a casualty of war doesn't strike me as quite right. Who else besides Vader or Palps would kill him?
    Obi-Wan is something that Vader would much rather stay away from IMHO...bad memories, an old life that no longer matters or fits with his ideals today. When Obi disappeared, Vader didn't think twice.

    I don't believe Vader knew he was on Tatooine though.

    I can't believe that Vader knew he had any children. No way; he'd either never have turned, or his redemption would have come alot sooner. Luke is Vader's only link to his past...to the good part of his past...Padme.

    Most people think neither Palps nor Vader knew of Yoda's existence - I'm sure they wouldn't let The Big Cheese stick around on an acreage somewhere.

    Honestly, I don't think either of them cared. Palpatine thinks he's the greatest...unbeatable. What's one little green gnome, no matter how powerful he used to be, going to do to him? Yoda's no longer got the support of the Council, of Mace, the government...of anyone. Even if Palps knew that both of them were alive, what could they possibly do? 2 old Jedi against the whole Empire? Luke's the fly in the ointment. Palps can't possibly know Luke was born or I think he would have made a greater effort to find and destroy both Obi and Yoda. Luke would then have had absolutely nobody to tie him to his father's past, and would never have been a threat.
  5. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    What does the emperor say to vader via hologram in ESB about the "son of Skywalker"? I can't remember. Has he only recently found out about Anakin's son from a "disturbance in the force"?
  6. Crispy_Fried_Dentic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2003
    star 2
    :::pops in video tape:::

    :::fast-forwards...waits waits:::

    Grrr...when are those frelling DVD's coming out??

    "There is a great disturbance in the Force"
    "I have felt it"
    "We have a new enemy; Luke Skywalker."
    "Yes my master."
    "He could destroy us"
    "He's just a boy, Obi-wan can no longer help him."
    "The Force strong with him; the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
    "If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally."
    "Yes...yes, he would be a great asset. Can it be done?"
    "He will join us or die, Master."

    So right there, it does prove that Palps didn't know about Luke. Unless of course, the old booger was lying and had this info all along (which I doubt).

  7. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Excellent. Thanks. (I don't own the OT. I refuse to watch VHS.)

    So the emperor does not know about Luke.

    But Vader does. How did he find out? Will he know about Luke (and not Leia?) in ep. 3? More interestingly, will he be complicit in Obi Wan's escape with Luke? Will he willingly allow Obi wan to escape so that his son might live?
  8. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Well, I still think the obvious answer is that the Empire learned of Luke when he single-handedly destroyed their "Ultimate Power in the Universe", AKA the Death Star.

    I'm sure the legend would quickly spread: "This farm boy from Tatooine came out of nowhere. They say he's going to be a Jedi Knight!"

    And I'm guessing Luke IS powerful, and never (at least consciously) tapped into the Force before Obi-Wan instructed him. So he wouldn't have a presence in the Force.

    Something I always wondered: From how far away can Force-sensitives sense each other's presence?

    When Vader senses Obi-Wan's presence in ANH, he seems surprised and almost scared.

    Yoda was the most powerful Jedi up until Anakin, at least in terms of "midichlorian" count - and Qui-Gon sensed something about him right away.

    So either the Emperor can't sense Yoda and Ben, or doesn't care. (?)
  9. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    GARTH_MAUL: Well, I still think the obvious answer is that the Empire learned of Luke when he single-handedly destroyed their "Ultimate Power in the Universe", AKA the Death Star.

    Duh! Oh course! That makes perfect sense.

    I too have wondered how the Jedi and Sith go about "sensing" other force-sensitive individuals. Does it have to do with geographic proximity? I'm more inclined to think that the more powerful the individual, the more apt they are to sense another individual despite vast distances (e.g. Yoda senses Anakin's plunge into the darkside from half-way across the galaxy).

    Which begs the question: why didn't Sidious and Vader sense Obi Wan and Yoda when they were in hiding? I just don't buy the explanation that they didn't care. From everything we know, the Sith were intent on total extermination of the Jedi. My explanation is that, just like Sidious, Maul, and Dooku before them, Yoda and Obi Wan were shrouding themselves, making themselves invisible in the Force so that they could not be detected by the Sith.

    The roles of the Sith & the Jedi are reversed in the OT and the PT. In the PT, the Sith are in hiding. In the OT, the Jedi are in hiding.
  10. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    Both Obi-Wan and Yoda were using about zero Force power, for a large number of years, and placed themselves about as far away from Coruscant (Palpatine's powerbase) as was possible.

    That's why I think neither he or Vader could locate them.
  11. Darth_Banal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 6
    Well, I still think the obvious answer is that the Empire learned of Luke when he single-handedly destroyed their "Ultimate Power in the Universe", AKA the Death Star.

    Yes, I agree with that. Vader specifically said "the Force is strong with this one" during the trench run. He probably had plenty of time to meditate on who that could be while floating out in space.

    Both Obi-Wan and Yoda were using about zero Force power, for a large number of years, and placed themselves about as far away from Coruscant (Palpatine's powerbase) as was possible.

    That's why I think neither he or Vader could locate them.


    There's also the "dark side cave on Dagobah acting as a counterbalance to hide Yoda" theory put up in the Zahn books, which sounds feasible to me.
  12. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    Im still not convinced that Palps doesn't know that Padme had child(ren). Just remember if Anakin is supposed to be a tragic hero, he will have someone feeding him misinformation, to further along his fall. Palpatine is to AnaVader, what Iago is to Othello. Sidious is allowing Vader to know only so much, in order to control him.

    Who knows maybe Vader and Sidious do not want Vader-Obi conflict for thier own reasons. Vader b/c Obi is the only person alive that has defeated Anakin, and Sidious will keep Vader in fear of Obi. This fear will keep Vader in his clutches as fear leads to anger which leads to hate, and hate is the strongest asset of the darkside. Sidious does not want Vader to immeaditely have a rematch, as he is affraid, and right fully so as proven in rotj, that Obi will try to redeem Anakin and have Anakin return to the dark side. It is important for Sidious to allow Anakin to know only so much, what he wants Anakin to know.

    So think Anakin will know that Obi is still alive, he will not know where Obi is.

  13. sharkboy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2004
    star 2
    It is possable the Yoda and Obi-Wan just get lucky we have not seen any great show of brain power from Obi-Wan or Yoda yet.
    Yoda seems a lot wiser in the OT so does Obi-Wan we learn from our mistakes.
  14. Darth_Banal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 6
    The other theory that's been bandied about is that somehow Yoda is assumed dead. He's never mentioned by Palpatine or Vader in the OT. Vader only mentions Obi-Wan ("Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me...Obi-Wan has taught you well...Obi-Wan once thought as you do").

    It would follow that Palpatine knows that Yoda is the most powerful Force-user (lightside, anyway), and want to take him out. So there could be an event in Ep III that makes him think Yoda is in fact dead. Possibly.
  15. NiktosRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 4
    About the Sith not being able to detect Obi-Wan and Yoda's presence in the force could be because they aren't using their force powers anymore or because they are so far away that they can't be felt through the force.

    I think they probably know Obi-Wan is alive but not Yoda. They don't know where Obi-Wan would be either. I also believe that Palpatine knows Anakin had children. He may not have ever made it public to anyone but I think he knows pretty much everything that happens. He may have kept that knowledge secret if Vader didn't know he had kids.
  16. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    UP. Look at my post count soar!! 8-}
  17. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I had never really thought about the transposition of the Jedi and Sith in the OT and PT until reading this thread. The Sith law holds true for the Jedi in the OT:

    "Only two there are...a Master, and an Apprentice. No more, no less."

    In ANH, Obi-Wan is the Master, Luke the Apprentice. When Obi-Wan dies, Luke takes a new master - Yoda. The Jedi have been forced to adopt the Sith way of life in order to remain in hiding from the Emperor and Vader.

    Perhaps this Rule of Two helps to hide Force sensitive individuals. Much as the emerging dark side has clouded the vision of the Jedi Order in the PT, after thousands of years of Jedi rule, so perhaps the Light Side has clouded the vision of the Sith after 20 years of rule. Just as the Jedi and the Republic are completely unaware of a Sith Lord standing right in front of them, that same Sith Lord is completely unaware that the two most powerful Jedi in the Republic (Obi-Wan and Yoda) have gone into hiding and still live.

    Perhaps the same arrogance that caused the Jedi to overlook the Sith will cause the Sith to overlook the Jedi. When Palpatine becomes Emperor, and Vader takes his place at his side, they may feel assured of total victory and their arrogance may cause them to overlook the truth.

    Luke: "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
  18. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Interesting thoughts (as usual), storm.

    I thought the Rule of Two was more to keep the Sith stable - since all Sith naturally want to be the most powerful and in control, when there are more than 2 Sith, they fight one another - Sidious/Dooku/Anakin (guessing here), Sidious/Dooku/Obi-Wan, Luke/Vader/Palpatine - or try to get a 3rd party to their side to tip the balance.

    Of course, it does help to hide them from the Jedi as well.

    I think it might just be that if you don't USE the Force, you don't register a Force presence - unless you're as off the scale as the Chosen One.

    I like the +/- "ion" theory of Yoda hiding by the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah, but it's a clever explanation created by Timothy Zahn and hasn't been confirmed yet.

    The problem with that theory, of course, is that Ben Kenobi would need something similar to hide on Tatooine.
  19. kosure Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 3
    somewhere in the EU, although i can't remember where exactly. It says that yoda hid on dagobah beacuse there was a sufficent dark side aura there, beacuse a great sith lord was killed there. maybe yoda fogged the minds of palps, and vader before bowing out, and awaiting his time. i wouldn't put it past yoda, i mean he is yoda.
  20. episodenone Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2001
    star 4
    "Honestly, I don't think either of them cared. Palpatine thinks he's the greatest...unbeatable. What's one little green gnome, no matter how powerful he used to be, going to do to him? "

    i totally disagree with that one
    use contemporary examples -- if we decimated al qaeda, is it ok to say "ahhhh the rest of them are dead, i give up on bin laden"

    "So right there, it does prove that Palps didn't know about Luke. Unless of course, the old booger was lying and had this info all along (which I doubt). "

    i doubt that as well
    look how hard he tries to turn ani, is it at all realistic to believe he wouldn't try as hard to get luke if he knew of his existence

    "Something I always wondered: From how far away can Force-sensitives sense each other's presence?

    well, something that disappointed me was a scene i heard was cut out of EP I -- when sidious force chokes the neimodian who says "we dare not go against the jedi" all the way from coruscant

    i woulda been super psyched to see that !!! and it would add a lot of weight to yoda's warning to luke about the emperor's power

    another way to look at it is when yoda says to obi "this one i have watched for a long time" referring to luke
    that would imply that with yoda's strength in the force, and his awareness of luke's existence, it is possible to sense a force sensitive individual over a VERY long distance
    so neither the emperor or vader can know of and children unless they believe they are somehow killed

    otherwise, one would assume they would have stopped at nothing to find them
  21. menttality Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    I've always thought that the emperor knew about Luke, but that he was afraid of him. Palpatine knows that it is quite possible for Luke and Vader to destroy him if they work together.

    In ESB palp warns vader that Luke could, "destroy us". But I think what he's really worried about is a coup from Vader. And of course later in the movie, Vader does try to win Luke over by telling him that together they can destroy the emperor and rule the galaxy.

    The emperor's final weakness is just as Luke said (overconfidence). Palpatine believes that he will be able to manipulate them against each other in the ROTJ throne room, but in the end his nightmare of them ganging up on him becomes true.


    As far as Obi-Wan goes, people are definitely aware of his escape from death. Tarkin certainly knows he wasn't caught and killed. I think that Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine just assumed that he would live the rest of his life in hiding. And at least one of them thought that he should be dead from old age by now anyway.


    Yoda is the problem one for me. The darkside shadow on Dagobah is one EU explanation that I am pretty easily swayed to. It just doesn't make sense that the Emperor and Vader would allow him to live. I understand that people say he hasn't used the force for many years, but then why wouldn't they sense him when he trains Luke? Perhaps because he is mostly just doing meditation and force-lifting? Maybe it all is just a testament to how powerful Yoda was that he can keep himself hidden from evil.
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