Lit How do you feel about Star Wars being over?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. Websinger2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2010
    star 1
    To be fair, you could say the same thing about any material pre-prequels. Hell, you can say that about the prequels themselves - we know the Empire has to rise and the Jedi Order gets wiped out. And yes, we do know that there is eventually a happy ending, with the death of the Emperor and redemption of Anakin, but we get a similar ending in Legacy. Krayt is defeated, the good guys are victorious and become the dominant power again, the Jedi are far from destroyed. They triumphed against the Sith.

    It's true that the Sith are still out there, but I prefer that. The Sith are like the Daleks. They always come back, no matter what, no matter how utterly they are destroyed. I much prefer to see the eventual return of the enemy foreshadowed in the survival of at least a few members of the original, rather than every return becoming more and more contrived as to how they got restarted. It's very much a bright ending, just with lots of story-telling opportunity left.

    I guess it comes down to taste. I personally cared a lot for Cade's crew, specifically seeing that loyal friendship that was developed. Jariah and Deliah never had to fight the Sith, never needed to stick with Cade, but they did, a gesture that is truly touching. I did admittedly tire of Cade at times, but his refusal to fight the enemy makes his eventual heroism all the more, for lack of a better word, heroic. It means a lot more. And it's hard to deny that by the end of "War" that Cade has become a hero. To each their own.
  2. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    star 6
    Did you read JJM's KOTOR series? Did you read Survivor's Quest? Did you watch the prequels?

    This argument will never not confound me.
  3. LordTroepfchen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2007
    star 4
    Actually Cooper is right. Everytime I do spend a little time from StarWars I come back and think LucasArts is the mothercompany, because of the broad focus of the word "arts" I guess. LucasFilm Ltd. probably is. Anyway, I really think before a court they might have a hard time prooving they are actually seperate companies and not de facto the same.

    Absolutely. My understanding of them working around their major franchise entries is not in any way meaning I approve it. I think it is stupid, short-term PR thinking. Actually they make it difficult for something like Kotor to show up, that can develop into TOR and with that a new franchise branch. And a more coherent canon is certainly something to generate interest.

    Also agree on the second part. We are probably past that point.
  4. DaRonin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2005
    star 1
    I think the next series of novels will have to start with the Post "Legacy: WAR" setup. There are still a lot of stories there that do need telling. Its only logical that the next big series focuses on that era.

    As for the the last call for any further adventures with Luke and the gang, It had to happen. It really did have to happen eventually. They've been pushing the expanded universe beyond any logical or sane boundries. I always thought it should have stopped after NJO, but they still had a viable product and pushed it harder. I dont like the idea of more of the solo children being killed off. I think Daala being named Chief of state, while having some grounds in logic considering she really had no loyalty to either side and thus had a likely more balanced viewpoint was... well abrupt to say the least and the follow up was utterly illogical. I havn't read a single FOTJ book, and I doubt I will.

    I followed the EU since the hardcover edition of Heir to the Empire. I still have it. the pages are now yellow, its been dropped in the bathtub while I was reading it there. certain pages are loose, the binding creaks and is fragile in certain parts, but The fact it still sits on my bookshelf says a lot about how I've followed the EU, from comics, games, and novels. But NJO was really where the logical stop should have been for this gravy train. Dark Nest was... decent, at best. Legacy was uneven to the point I wondered if the authors had any communication with eachother, FOTJ just seems to me like one bad idea after another from the synopsis I see.

    I think the chief problem I have is the continuity baggage. For example, by having Kyle Katarn as a legit figure in the EU, they effectively give an overlap. Now was it Bria Therin who got the death star plans, or was it Kyle? And The Valley of the Jedi is a decent enough plot device for a video game, but the fact it exist in the novels is just a literary heaache for anyone to explain the science behind it, and how there arent literally thousands of force sensitives popping up now that the valley's location is well known. Then there is the issue of bringing the KOTR games into continuity. Since they uphold the tradition of non romance between jedi, when about forty years prior it was common in the comics they are following up that occured about a deacade prior to the games. This is what is known as continuity baggage. Which is why legacy worked. It could chose what continuity it wanted to keep since it was jumping so far ahead, yet still say it is part of the same universe. Which is why it is logically, the most viable option

    I now have all the bantam and NJO books Im interested in on my ipad, and the comics I respected I keep in my closet. But the EU (in so far as luke, han, leia, chiwie and the gang) ended for me a long time ago, to me the eu just caught up with reality. Im glad they've stopped flogging the dead horse. I had my fun with this crew, but I moved on years ago.
  5. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    Cooper,

    The Prequels came (published) before the Legacy comics, and we all know that the OT gave us a happy ending, so that's okay.
    Survivor's Quest came before the whole Del Rey Vong timeline, but in anycase I don't know why you brought it up, because I don't think it's even relevant to our discussion.
    KOTOR comics, one, it's set way before the PT and the OT. Two, the game KOTOR set it up so that Revan was triumphant at the end.

    Instead you have a bum who sits on his pantaloons doing nothing by the end of Legacy comics. Yes, Cade Skywalker is a bum. There was no character development. He started out as a bum, and ended the Legacy comics run as a bum.

    In any case, we're not discussing whether prequels are good or have merits, we're discussing whether people feel whether star was universe have any hope for the future left? What is the point?

    My opinions as stated above is the whole reason why I never got into Allegiance or the Darth Bane Series, or Outbound Flight.
    Per Allegiance: I just can't read about any Mara Jade stories after I know that whatever happens in those stories, she's gonna die.
    Per Darth Bane series: Rain was my favorite TOTJ character, a close second is Tomcat, but now one kills the other (confirmed) with no way of redemption for Rain.
    Outbound Flight: No matter what I do, I can't get behind Lorana's death...

    What the pants is the point? The adventure in between? The journey is more important the destination? Spare me the semantics. They only say that when you win in the end.

  6. Websinger2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2010
    star 1
    As I said in the previous page:

    Sorry if I don't understand your point, but surely there's plenty of hope by the end of Legacy?

    Well he steps up, fights against the Sith, kills Vul Isen, kills the Darth Krayt, thus destroying the otherwise unstoppable Sith Troopers. To be fair, the end of War #6 doesn't specifically say that Cade is going back to his old ways - there's only a page or two after him recovering. He went from drug-addict pirate to a self-admitted Jedi willing to sacrifice his life to save the Galaxy? Yeah, no character development there [face_whistling] Boo him for then taking at least a page to relax after the end of the war.

    That's more than a bit cynical, no offence. The story is compeltely about the journey. Otherwise you might as well skip to the end of every book. Considering you complained about a lack of character development, bear in mind that that's what happens during the journey, so I would say it's kindof important. Anyway, isn't that what the prequels were? (Admittedly the quality of those films depend on your point of view, but still).
    Even if you wish to be spared the semantics, the heroes DO win in the end. That's exactly what happens. If Legacy ended on a down-note, I'd understand, but there is plenty of hope for the future in the EU.
  7. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    The closest thing I can offer is for someone with no experience in Star Wars to watch ROTS and then ask him if he wants to watch the first two films of the PT.
  8. Websinger2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2010
    star 1
    Depends on who you ask to be honest. Lots of reasons to watch them; sake of completion, curiosity, enjoyment of the one they watched etc. I start a lot of series late in the game and often have to go back to the beginning out of a pure sense of curiosity and of course hopefully looking for of the same entertainment (the KOTOR games for example, played #2 first then later went back and played the first one). Plenty of money has been made in entertainment by offering prequels to the story. Prequel films, prequel games, prequel novels etc.
    I'm almost losing the point of what I was saying myself. Oh yeah, still stuff to do. Still story to tell between ROTJ and Legacy, same as there was story to tell between Dawn of the Jedi and the Phantom Menace. Story + journey = development and depth = good.

    Anyway, with ROTS you still have the happy ending of ROTJ to come. Plenty more journey to go ;)
  9. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    The old JMS quote is apt here: "The most interesting part about storytelling to me isn't the what; it's the why."

    True then, true now, to many people.
  10. DaRonin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2005
    star 1
    Nah, I say start it in order that we all experienced it. The first trilogy, and then ask them if they are interested in more, and based on that person, and your knowledge of what occured after 1983, show them what you think they would like. Bring them into the prequel trilogy advising them of its flaws, like say 90% of Phantom Menace and the horrible romance between Padmae and Anakin.

    I personally cannot enjoy anything Kevin J Anderson wrote. Too many logic issues. I have friends that enjoyed tales of the jedi that barely made it past the first issue of The Sith War, where Anderson was writing solo by that point. Others hate Karen Travis, but I enjoy the majority of her work. She does have some issues, but she did have a strong start. Some dislike Zahn, I personally find him my favorite EU writer. Some hate the clone wars tv show, I say its the best thing to come out of the prequel trilogy. Its all an acquired taste.

    Also, I also find the argument... "anything that takes place before 'story X' is pointless because we already know what the end destination is" to be a case of haters math. Its like saying Heir to the Empire is redundant after reading Dark Force Rising or Survivors Quest.
  11. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Jul 8, 1999
    star 6
    The examples I gave were relevant in that they were all followed soon after by large galactic disasters that were already known at their time of release - KOTOR by the games, the PT by the OT, and Survivor's Quest by the Vong War. And in all three of those cases, the disasters were only a decade or so further up the timeline, compared with a hundred years between LotF and Legacy.

    The only real difference I can see is that Legacy's "final" happy ending hasn't been told quite yet. I'd say that War was a step in that direction, but it's more of a DS1 moment rather than a DS2 moment - but hey, that's just me.

    In any event, you really seem to be saying one of two things: you're opposed to Legacy existing as is because you don't enjoy it (clearly you're not wild about Cade), or you're opposed to FotJ, et al existing prior to Legacy arriving at its (inevitable) happy, RotJ-esque ending.

    If the former, then you're entitled to your opinion but you should stick to that rather than trying to logic Legacy away. If the latter, then it follows that you would be happier if Del Rey had stopped publishing post-LotF books until after Legacy was over and done with, because once the ultimate defeat of the One Sith is established, you would then be able to see FotJ as not being a waste of time.

    No?
  12. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Coop was just being uber-picky.[face_mischief]

    Or, you can cover the divisions all at once with this: "LFL-Empire".
    Labeling-problems, solved.
    :p
  13. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Everyone dies. It doesn't make what a person does in their lives meaningless though.

    While I appreciate that's obviously not the point you were getting at, you've actually touched on something I've always felt the EU could explore more. We get lots of "insert" stories like KOTOR that fill in gaps where characters like Zayne can live their own adventures. We also get lots of "fighting fate" stories where people have visions of tragic futures and try to prevent them coming to pass (in most cases, either to bring about the visions in the process, or else simply to go dark to prevent them).

    But while we always have a Yoda character standing back and saying "just accept it", we almost never, ever get a hero who actually does that. (In fact, I'm unable to even come up with an example off the top of my head?) Now, the films are obviously the main inspiration, so Anakin fighting Padme's fate has become a running theme in the EU, but I always have thought it'd be good to show a character who does indeed foresee the future -- thereby placing them in the same shoes as the reader -- but who accepts their role in things and just gets on with things and chooses to live. "We take what is given," as Kol said.

    Lucien's decision at the end of KOTOR is possibly the closest analogy I can think of. I've long felt though, with some readers ever more frequently becoming uncomfortable about reading earlier stories, the EU could benefit from more characters like Lucien as a way to explore (in universe) why a person's life isn't about how they are going to one day die but how they live their lives. I can walk in front of a bus tomorrow... but it won't diminish the things I'd like to think I've done right in my life, but for some reason the EU seems to have been somewhat bad at getting that message across, with characters always unconsciously weighed down by the same doubts Anakin Skywalker was.

    In Doctor Who, it's spelt out in numerous episodes that one day the Earth will explode or the universe will end. But the Doctor still chooses to help people to live their lives. Knowing the future doesn't diminish his need to do what he does. The EU seems to have a lack of people like him. In a strange way, this is why I actually think it could be nice of Luke foresaw exactly what is going to happen: but accepts it and chooses to ensure his son lives his life as best he can -- unlike his cousin, whose fear of the future was what destroyed him. Ben would be a very uplifting contrast to Jacen if he had the same visions -- but rather than fight fate, accepted the will of the Force, content in the knowledge that even when the Sith one day return, it won't mean the end, but a new beginning.

    Don't forget, we all know the Earth is going to end on December 21 this year, but that doesn't stop us making the most of our lives. :p
  14. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Sigh, this is one area where SW fans need to man up. Cade did change by the end of Legacy, he had to otherwise he would have been Krayt's forever, there was no shortage of character development but what people didn't like was the realism! They didn't like that Cade didn't fix his problems instantly, that he didn't shrug off traumas - how many people do you know who can watch their planet go boom and act just fine and they don't scare you? - then, at the end, when he finally does pull it off, those same people turn around and say: Nah, he can't have! Come on, which is it to be? You can't want him to sort his life out and then, when he finally manages it, damn him for it!

    All Legacy really requires is a decent sequel to follow-up - I'd go for the story of Gar Stasi's Sith Genocide personally. Because that and a few other follow-ups are all that's needed. But then, even with the end of Legacy known - GA triumphant, the Jedi standing tall, the Sith defeated and on the run, people still harp on about all the bad crap the bad guys have done before! Know what that's like? You're watching ANH, Luke blows the Death Star and then someone walks in and goes on about how bad it was Alderaan got destroyed and how bad it was the Rebels didn't do something earlier and that ObiWan, what a wastrel! Sat on his arse for 20 years and then did suicide by Vader! Fun, huh?

    This has gone on for 7 years and it's really, really boring.
    GrandMasterKatarn likes this.
  15. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    Cooper,

    I'm saying that the concept of prequels is a bad idea.
    I wouldn't mind Legacy comics if they published it after FOTJ.
    The way Vong War NJO was published after Survivor's Quest.
    In any case they shouldn't have made prequels about the same characters. That's why the PT in general was a bad idea. They should have made a sequel trilogy instead of the PT.
    The KOTOr comics was okay because it wasn't about Revan. It was about Zayne (although if Zayne ended up Darth Gibberish with a skull for head, I'm going to scream).
    In all honesty I could tolerate Legacy comics if it weren't Cade Skywalker. Make it Cade Horn or maybe even Cade Khai. But they had to make it Cade Skywalker?

    The above is all because of the times they individual novels were published Out of Universe.
    If someone were to read from say Cloak of Deception chronologically in Universe, to the Legacy comics, then I guess everything would be okay. But for me, who started reading from TTT all the way to FOTJ, I don't want to read novels such as Taatooine Ghost, Shadow of Mindor, or Allegiance, because I know both Thrawn and Mara are dead, and the Killiks are the poor man's borg.

    For the record, I would like it very much if all future SW novels took place after the Legacy comics.
  16. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    I nom this thread to be continue on the temporary board, methinks. Thoughts?
  17. Malachi108 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2009
    star 3
    A person willingly refusing to read 'Shadows of Mindor' is committing a crime against humanity [face_shame_on_you] Not as bad as mass-scale genocide, but coming pretty close to it.

    Seriously, if we only ever move to the future, then the EU would be pretty small: Thrawn Trilogy, Jedi Academy Trilogy, Callista Trilogy, Corellian Trilogy, Hand of Thrawn, NJO, LOTF, FOTJ and Legacy - that would be about it. Very dull and unimpressive, if you present me such an EU.

    SWEU has always branched in different directions and time periods simultaneously, all the way from the late 70-s. Where early books jumped all over Rebellion and new Republic eras, we later got the prequel era, the Clone Wars, the KOTOR era and with the recent Dawn of the Jedi we have now stories spanning over 25,000 galactic years. And if you look at recent and upcoming products, practically all of them have some sort of the future already set in stone.

  18. Crimson Empire III
  19. - Kir Kanos won't kill Luke or Leia. Peace negotiation with Empire are doomed to fail. Pellaeon won't die.
  20. Dark Times
  21. - most surviving Jedi are eventually hunted down and exterminated. Vader becomes Palpatine's top dog.
  22. Agent of the Empire
  23. - Armand Isard dies in a few years after this story. Clearly that makes it totally pointless to ever read.
  24. Knights of the Old Republic?War
  25. - Revan and Malak defeat Mandalorians, but turn to the Dark Side. After the Jedi Civil War, Sith Triumvirate kills all Jedi except a few hundreds.
  26. Dawn of the Jedi
  27. - The First Great Schism will happen. Followers of Bogan will wage Force Wars with Followers of Ashla. The Jee'dai will become Jedi and move to Ossus. And Xesh is most likely Xendor.
  28. Blood Ties: Boba Fett is Dead
  29. - Boba Fett dies. Only Vader is also in this story. So, Fett is not really dead.
  30. Knight Errant
  31. - Sith at large won't be defeated until Ruusan 32 years later. And even then, it will take a hundred of Jedi to sacrifice their souls to millennia of torment.
  32. Darth Plagueis
  33. - Darth Plagueis manages to save some people from dying, teaches his apprentice everything he knew, dies in the sleep.

    Now, you go ahead and tell me any of those stories are invalidated by the fact we already know some events that happen later. In fact, everything listed above has almost universal approval rate on this board. And even if we go deeper, we have:

  34. The Clone Wars TV series and its spinoffs
  35. - Anakin turns to the Dark Side and kills Padme. Palpatine kills Mace Windu and your favorite Jedi is killed by your favorite Clone Commander. Republic is transformed into empire.

    Both the viewers and the creators knew it very well, but it doesn't stop from telling new stories. Each month SWEU has timeline covered from all possible angles and it would be a wasted opportunity not to revisit some favorite character. Yes, Chewie dies decades after the events of Tatooine Ghost, Mara dies decades after the events of Allegiance and Fenn Shysa dies decades after the events of Shadows of Mindor. But if for you this alone is the reason not to read them, I regret to report you're skipping some of the finest EU stories out there.

    After all, they can't always move timeline forward - that would result in either very few stories or us pushing 256 ABY by now. Star Wars has always been full of not just constant sequels, but Prequels, Interquels, standalones and so forth. And the so-called "Post-ROTJ" EU is only a very small part of it.
  36. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    How do you feel about Shadow Hunter?
  37. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Breaking news: Everyone eventually dies. Better stop reading Star Wars.
  38. DARTH_MU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    isn't that the Darth Maul book?
    I can't comment on that because I haven't read the book. Although to be honest, Darth Maul doesn't interest me that much.

    The reason I want sequels is because I want to know what happens to my favorite character? Not what did my favorite character do that one time when he/she was drunk in that bar that one time before he/she defeated this red eyed blue freak.... I want to know what kind of blue freak she's gonna defeat after 25 ABY. Oops! You mean to tell me she got taken down by her own nephew after biting a toxic dart? NOOOOOOOOOOOO....

    Now after that...

    Bookseller: Psst.... want to know what happens after Luke and Mara got married but before the Yuuzhan Vong war where they defeat this other huge threat and before Mara almost got pregnant with kid but this villain did something or another so that Mara got infected by this .....

    Me: PANT you!!!! GoD PAANT you!!!!!.

    Edit: HAVAC,
    Sure, but I certainly don't want to read it in my fiction unless it's something like For another Day by Mitch Albom or another thing where I voluntarily look for angst....
    Not in my Star Wars where I want the villains to be villains and heroes win the day. sigh. If I wanted true to life fix I would have stayed with the news or audit some Global Politic class at the local university....
  39. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Seconded.
  40. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Let's not bandy about trite aphorisms. Both are important, and the story as a whole suffers if one doesn't live up to the other. (Otherwise you might as well not read the ending of any book.)

    Don't worry, it's not really about him, so knowing that he dies* in the future shouldn't ruin it for you.

    *Yeah, TCW, whatever.
  41. Sock2008 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2008
    star 3
    Better sent me for ICC, because I refuse to read Shadows of Mindor. I can't read it, not after Invincible and what came of Han, Leia and Luke. Monsters. Reading about them as they should have still been in 41 ABY would be too infuriating, even painful.
  42. Sith_Knight087 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 1
    In my opinion I feel that anything post 138 ABY is very GRAY territory at this point in time. It's very likely that 138 ABY would not be The End of Star Wars... far from it in fact. But for now I would put that part of the timeline under ''Stories Yet To Be Told'' and be done with it.
  43. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    yeah Shadows of Mindor was awesome. I also liked tatooin Ghost. love dthe significance of Leia getting to know the real anakin. Her seeing her grandmother's journal. very cool.

    I could not finish Legacy comics, because what it stands for. It butchers Luke's legacy. I might by the last TPB just so i can read the ending, but i was so frustrated with it, i stopped readig.