Full Series How do you want the mandalorian to be portrayed in the clone wars?

Not really, no, it didn't destroy the Traviss mandos. At least not yet. (But some of us might be hoping...)

And I don't think the RCs will show up much of anywhere. We have Rex, Cody and the 501st to handle that. What's going to be VERY interesting is how they react to the mandos. So far, we've only seen them escorting Anakin with no dialog. That could be the big break point for the Traviss mandos.

 

It really hasn't done quite that at this point. I don't think its effected the older culture(or True Mandalorians if you prefer) other than perhaps moving them around the system a little.

Would Karen's books survive better without the Retcons, absoulutely, but that's spilt milk at this point. So long as nothing rules out the True Mandalorians completely its open enough to retcon.

Right now Satine and her crews POV's can be written off as bluster and political spin. I still do wonder how Satine would deal with the revelation that Beskar'gam wearing Mandalorians are on the payroll of the Republic and reporting to the Jedi while she's claiming they don't exist.

What has suffered the most difficult rewrite is the planet Mandalore itself, which directly contradicts its appearance and facts as presented in 501st and other sources. It is a big problem, but I think it will be easy enough for the continuity keepers to figure something out in the long run at this point.

I might not like that something, but neither is Scolai getting his wish. Shysa, Kal and crew will carry on. It will be about finding a middle ground. LFL is not going to intentionally alienate RC fans(and its parts in 8 novels) on a whim, especially with Sue Rostoni mentioning they are looking for an author to continue the IC series.

 

Oh, I think I am. I wanted tough mandos more in line with KOTOR than Traviss. I think that's what we're seeing. Satine's civilian folks just give the culture layers. But no, of course, the history of events KT established will remain, but perhaps the motivations and characterizations will be altered by all this. Less Kal, more Canderous please.

And, no matter what, this new view of the Mandalorians, their culture, their outlooks, their strengths and their flaws, will be the way of things going forward. The age of the godlike mando farmer/soldier/best-at-everything-ever is over and we have a much more well rounded culture.

 

I always had the picture of the Mandos kinda like the Spartans. Focused only on war (which is why they, like the Spartans were the best warriors) not plowing a field like in Farmville.

Yes. There is only one Godlike Mando who is the best at everything. AND HIS NAME IS BATMA...I mean BOBA FETT!!!!!

 

The more I've thought about it, Spartans doesn't exactly fit what Mandos originally were. Vikings is more like it, really. Very raider-based society.

I'll also be honest, if Jango and Boba were the exceptions to the rule, were the only "best there is at what I do" Wolverine style mando, I'd be much happier. A whole society of Wolverines deminishes the original.

 

Or a more boring one, where Mandalorians as a whole are about equal to the people of Naboo, or Alderaan, or one of the dozen other pacifist human societies the universe already has featured.

Basically Lucas just took away what made them unique and made them the same as every other human culture we see. Now they are simply.....square.

Edit: Actually the Mandalorians were originally miners and farmers enslaved by the Empire as per Marvel's depiction, who then adopted a more militaristic approach following gaining their freedom.

The we are all warriors stuff came from KotOR, with Karen trying to meld the two depictions into one.

 

Uh...yeah. They aren't special little snowflakes any more...

I'm not seeing the problem here. In fact, that's been sort of my point - knock them off the pedestal. They aren't best at everything, aren't the most important folks in the galaxy, aren't the most unique folks out there. They're more real now because of this.

It's kinda hard to argue that you want to see the Jedi be gritty and realistic and deal with heavy emotional issues so they feel real and then also want your space men with jetpacks to have a totally unique culture that doesn't fit with any other in the galaxy and is super-duper special.

Don't wish for realism for one without accepting it for all.

You do realize S-Canon (Marvel) can and is often disregarded and in no way has to be acknowledged by anyone, at any time. It's just there if someone wants to use it.

Mandos were also shown as marauding raiders who took entire populations as slaves and forced them to plow the fields and such. And Boba Fett was never a Mandalorian in Marvel, just a guy who stole their armor.

 

Thats right, they are now boring.

They never were the best at everything, never the most important people in the galaxy, nor were they on a pedestal within the universe. They were slaughtered in the KotOR timeframe, and had the snot beat out of them by Darth Caedus in LOTF, beaten soundly by Jedi in FOTJ, while being conquered and manipulated in Legacy.

You act as if Karen Traviss is the only author to every write the word Mandalorian on a page. And even her Mandalorians were incredibly flawed(as well as over the top at times I admit), but thats just my opinion, your welcome to yours though I do wish you would back up your sensationalist statements with EU realities, from time to time.

So lets take the Force and the lightsabers and the robes away from the Jedi, that would make them more real right? That would be much better.

No, in Marvel(the first source to ever use the term Mandalorian), Boba Fett was a Mandalorian. He was the leader of 212 Supercommando's who served the Empire while not realizing that his home planet had been enslaved. Just because its been retconned doesn't mean it didn't exist.

Mandalorians in Marvel is C-Canon as retconned by Abel Pena and now Karen Traviss. If you don't want to acknowledge it I'm fine with that, maybe you would then prefer to stop talking about issues outside Lucas's version of continuity.

 

So...

They don't have ships faster than the latest X-Wings?
They don't have armor that lightsabers can't cut through?
They didn't suddenly gain the ability to not be sensed by the Force?
They don't have a metal that no one else in the galaxy can work with?
They didn't "kneecap" a dark lord of the Sith? (Note - it took a different author to have them get beat)
Luke Skywalker's own son didn't fantasize about how great it would have been to be born a Mando?
The SWORD OF THE JEDI wasn't sent to them to train because they were the best?

No, really, tell me how they weren't put on pedestals as the best ever?

Here's a few threads to read through.

Marvel is the definition of S-Canon. Abel created a C-canon version that KT completely ran roughshod over because she didn't like it. You really don't want to use that as your tentpole.

 

Again, ignore the rest of the universe if you wish. Karen certainly presented the Mandalorians in an extremely positive light(not that much different than Stackpole presented Rogue Squadron, but thats a seperate issue, I digress)

But that was not the sole presentation in universe that we saw(and a couple of your points were not even originally invented by Karen Traviss.)

You have an issue with the approach of one author, while pretending that the others like Luceno, Denning, Ostrander, John Jackson Miller, Matt Stover and more have never written on the subject.

I don't believe I've said anything factually innaccurate here. If you think Fenn Shysa isn't C-Canon, thats really not relevent to the discussion. Nor is a Karen Traviss bashing session really needed here.

I respect that you don't like her work(and perhaps not her), some don't, but that doesn't change anything I've presented. I'm really not sure what point your even trying to make here, but you have completely convinced me that you don't like Karen Traviss.

 

No, indeed, I do not like Karen Traviss, nor her view of Mandalorians or Jedi or Star Wars in general and I am very glad she is gone.

I submit, however, that you are not at all trying to argue for Mandalorians, but for one specific author's view of those Mandalorians, which has been the case for many, many of these various discussions.

As I said, I prefer the mandos of KOTOR, the mandos -before- Karen had her way with them and turned them into supermen.

Edit: In other words, one can like mandalorians and still really dislike Traviss' vision of them.

 

So you prefer the Mandalorians as a warrior culture?

Now my knowledge of KotOR is incomplete due to apathy toward that entire timeframe, but every source I've seen from that era has them as galaxy conquering warriors.

What am I missing?

 

I prefer them as an interesting culture, not two dimensional. The KOTOR era mandos were, in essence, space jerks. They conquered people, enslaved them, and moved on looking for someone, anyone, to give them a good fight. They got one in the Jedi, and after getting their collective noses punched in, they respected the Jedi highly. They were arrogant and rowdy, with little honor except that they respected strength. They certainly did not have any real morals other than "don't take anything off of anyone". They also didn't have to be the best at everything - they had armor and guns and the will to use them, nothing more. It was attitude, not some innate "superguy" powers, that made them cool.

Satine's mandos are an evolution, a society set in a world where the warriors finally wore out their welcome. The Death Watch are throwbacks to those old KOTOR mandos - a return of the space jerks, if you will. They aren't the best ever. They do not have weapons and armor superior to everything. They are not the "third blade of the sword" between the Jedi and Sith. They're just cool guys in armor. Why they need to be more than that is beyond me.

 

Space jerks sounds pretty two-dimensional to me. And I think even then the mandos had some honor beyond rule of strength-Canderous expresses a distaste for stealth attacks at one point. Of course the comic reveals most of the Mandolorians were Republic criminals gang-pressed into the Neo-Crusaders, so perhaps space jerks is justified.

Anyway, I just read some interesting thoughts on the topic over on the Lit Board: Mainly, it seems pre-Travis, it seems that the most common view of Mandolorian society, at least amongst those who knew them, was of a fairly normal group of farmers and miners who had traded a large, standard military for a military that was small, highly trained and very well equipped group of commandos for protection. Also, the Mandolorian government was scene as separate from its military forces: West End Games references a Governor of Mandalore building an army and fighting the Jedi, and Fenn references being hired by his government as a military leader.

So while this newest version of Mandolore doesn't mesh completely with the old view, (farmers and miners verse....well, probably industrial, peace-loving civilian government vs militant civilian government), it seems more in line with the old work than the more well known version today, who treats them like ancient warrior nobility (armor heirlooms, militancy even during peace time, highly decentralized etc.)

Please note I am not including TOTJ and KOTOR era Mandos because a lot can change over 4000 years.

On a related topic: Has Boba Fett's armor lost some/all of its coolness now that so many have similar armor? Some people there lamented that the armor used to just belong to the 212 super-commandos, not the population at large. And on a related note, I find it interesting that in the Marvel comics, only the leaders where Boba-like armor; most of the Resitance wears lighter armor, in white and purple.
Well, personally, I am glad that the armor in the show is simplified to show that Jango and Boba customized their armor.

 

KOTOR mandos were two-dimensional, which is why I like the new CWAS mando view to see that they grew into a real society. And I'd also say Canderous wasn't your average mando - that's why he went on to be the next leader. Remember, you had mandos killing farmers on Dantooine for...well, no particular reason than it was fun. And Wookiees on Kashyyyk too...in stealth suits!

Bing bing bing bing bing! Yep. That's why I like it. It fits in with the old view of the mandos pre-KT. And again, the Death Watch represents a throwback to the KOTOR mandos.

Good question. I still like that Jango and Boba's armor is more custom, and I think the addition of the flamethrowers, dart launchers, etc. really makes them look tougher. But yeah, the more of something there is, the less unique and interesting it becomes. Imagine if they had every mandalorian in the whole society wearing armor!

Speaking of, I'm pretty sure that the Concordia guards...or mandalorian police?...armor is kind of an homage to some of the Gundam armor. It certainly had the tradiational Boba/Jango look, but the helmet and shield really put me in mind of Gundam. Also, they carried wicked looking tonfas. I'm a fan of shields (physical shields) in general, so seeing them carrying those was pretty cool.

 

Well, I remember it was those Wookie-hunters in stealth suits that caused Canderous to comment on his dislike of sneak attacks; I remember him saying they weren't true mandos or something like that.

Ah, I see.

Well, I wouldn't mind so long as they had different armor.
One of my favorite images of all Star Wars is this one panel of Mandolorian Crusaders in the KOTOR comics, each and every having a highly unique suit of armor, all of them detailed and badass. Rohlan's flashbacks were cool too...especaily since KOTOR was one of the few sources where we got to see non-human Mandolorians: a Tuang, a Twi'lek and a Rodian. Plus a lot more alien Neo-Crusaders...evena wookie!

Wait, what was I talking about again?

I loved those Concordian Gaurds!
1. I am also a big fan of physical shields, (cool to meet someone else how likes them. Everyone is into giant two hand weapons and dual-wielding these days). They have a nice effect with armor and it is a shame we never got to see them in action.
2. The Tonfas were cool too...I wonder if they were blasters or electric weapons?
3. Funny you should mention Gundam...just the other day i was sketching and created some Mandolorians with armor based off of the Zaku and the Dom.

 

My first character in World of Warcraft (who became my primary alt after my mage became my main) was a paladin, so I have a very dear spot in my heart for shields. Two handers are o.k., but nothing beats the look of a huge hunk of metal on your arm, ready to take anything the enemy throws at you.

I'd assume the tonfas have a stun effect. I seem to recall an old WEG game book with a similar looking tonfa stun baton.

As for Gundam, I'm afraid I don't know it well. While I'm an oldschool anime fan (I watched Fist of the Northstar bootleg fansubs in college in the very early 90s...) I never got into Gundam. But that armor really reminded me of something I'd seen, especially the visor.

 

Wow, maybe the Nazis really had the right idea about book burning.

 

To be fair, most of that is in a single book. The list of crimes against Star Wars she committed in her other books would be a lot longer (her insults to fans bother me less than how she mangled poor Scout, and how she literally murdered poor Mara - Zahn should write a book with <insert any of her favorite mandos here> getting an acid enema for that one).

Also, you don't want to go down that particular path. That's what she did, and it's not a good idea.

 

Well, i would normally guess the tonfas are stun batons too, but Satine's guards have spears that shoot lasers, so you can never know.

As for Gundam, well, for reference, here is a Zaku:
[image=http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msigloo2/ms-06j.jpg]

and here is a Dom:
[image=http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msigloo2/ms-09.jpg]
The important thing to note about the Dom is that it hovers, so it moves very fast despite its armor and firepower.

It also now occurs to me that its heat rod would make a fine Star Wars weapon.

 

Scolai since Robimus didnt answer your list and I am kinda bored I am willing to take a shot at it. To my way of thinking your list is an example to why people stumble in regards to what KT writes. For whatever reason they don't like the author or something the author did angers them and that in turn clouds objective thinking on the subject. So lets side aside your stated dislike of Traviss and look at your list.

So it is beyond the realm of possibility that a culture that has access to large amounts of credits can buy the latest and best engines on the market? That their partnership with the verpine, a race known for its engineering skill and tinkering to maximaze the effectiveness of anything they work on, could result in a starfighter that is on par with the current standard in the galaxy? If the remnant has interceptors and the GA has A-wings or similar faster starfighters would it be logical that if you are arming your culture that you want something that could match them? Making slower ones or les lethal makes no sense.

Is it that lightsabers can't cut through beskar or that a simple swipe won't? I don't think it is every stated that given enough time lightsabers can't cut through beskar but much like heavy shield doors it would take time. Now considering Zahn came up with cortoris as a means of disrupting lightsabers and even introduced it as a type or body armor or woven into walls and furniture in attempts to make them resistant to lightsabers. I don't see people complaining about the disciples of Thrawn having this armor and yet give similar properties to beskar and it is bad. Why exactly?

Ok this one I have to confess threw me for a loop. I don't remember reading this at all so maybe I need to reread the book in question or if you point me to the source I can better comprehend it. Given that there are several ways to escape detection in the force with out a frame of reference i am not sure which one to offer.

This is a just plain wrong. It was never stated that mando's are the only ones who can work with beskar. What is stated i they are the only ones with the secret to maximizing it to its full potential. Anyone can work with it and it is the equivalent to durasteel or any or similar metal. Is this so hard to believe? The Japanese cafeully guarded their technique of folding steel for generations. The secrets behind spanish steel were heavily coveted and those who knew how to make Damascus steel were better than those using iron or bronze. Why does the fact the mando culture would not let the secret of working beskar to its greatest potential make them seem superhuman? That is just a good strategy. You wouldn't expect Apple to share its iphone tech with Motorola would you?

Considering that Lucas himself wiped out the entire Jedi order with lowly clones or that other EU authors killed hundreds of Jedi with bugs and snakes why does a Mando knee capping a Sith Lord raise eyebrows? Why is this an unacceptable thing but Bacara and the 21st Nova Corps gunning down Ki-adi-Mundi seem plausible?

Given that as a child Ben withdrew from the force, he blamed the Jedi and the force as the reason that his childhood was spent hiding and away from his parents and the hurt and distance spent away from them. Then he begins to admire hie friends in GA and gets that military wonderlust, the soldiers duty.

 

You're correct that you can rationalize each one of those things individually. Any one or two of those things? No big deal. Everybody has something that makes them special, right? But the mandos had ALL of it.

Here, let me give you an example:

A super hero who can fly - no biggie
A super hero with incredible strength - o.k., sure.
A super hero who is essentially invulnerable - yeah, no problem
A super hero with laser beam eyes - yep, not a problem.
A super hero with incredible speed - not a stretch
A super hero with super cold breath - sounds o.k. to me
A super hero with x-ray vision - gotcha, no problem.
Perfect morality too?
And one vulnerability that's super rare?

Now...put all those together and you get a godlike being called Superman, who certainly has fans but is often criticized as being too perfect. That's what you got with the mandos. Any one, two or heck three of those things (and there are more, if you want to get into their super war droids, sword skills, rocketpacks, etc.) would be fine. It's putting them all together and presenting them as basically the best thing since sliced bread while simultaneously having everyone in your book think and act like they're the best of the best that knocks the wheels off any argument that they anything but Gary Stus for an author with a fascination for supermen.

Perhaps the "setting aside of personal feelings" should come from folks who would rather compartmentalize the issues instead of looking at the whole picture. One on one, none of the stuff is bad. Taken all together? It's just crazy.

 

How are the Jedi different? What you have in this case is called nitpicking. You don't like the source so you look for these slight things most of which I can rationalize away and lump them together as reasons for why KT stinnk and it looks like she is making mandos the greatest thing since sliced bread. Not all Mandos are equal and KT writes that. some have areas of expertise and secondary skills. Not all mando are great swordsmen but you state that they all share the same kill set, the same tech, the same level of awesomeness which is far from the truth. It is a warrior culture so naturally they are good at fighting, are they good diplomats? Nope not by any story I have ever read. Are they good doctors or scientists? I think they are passable but we are not talking about mando being the cutting edge of science and healing. I think you exaggerate the level of "Stu"ness here. I am sure you will bring up the Nulls, how Traviss writes them as the greatest thing out there. This is the exception to the rule. They are genetically engineered "super" soldiers. Increased memory, mental acuity, reflexes, training. They are created to be the best and had they best training info the Kaminos could provide. KT never wrote that Skirata or Vau or any other typical mando could do the things they did. Neither Omega or Delta portrayed as anything beyond well trained commandos. THe Nulls yes, and they strove to be perfect fearing that the moment they weren't they would be killed. This opens up huge areas for character development which KT did when she had her precious Nulls fail. She also challeges her Mando supermen by facing them with their prejudice and learning from it. Unfortunatly this is lost because people are "nitpicking" the small stuff. Every EU author does the same s

 

Wow, colored text. ****'s on.

 

boredom breeds playing with all the shiny buttons and functions that normally I wouldn't bother with. Also makes it easier to read when your head is pounding you feel like and you have sinus' stuffed up so bad that a death satr would be needed to unblock them.

plus I like the pretty colors.