How do you want the mandalorian to be portrayed in the clone wars?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by cain718, Nov 17, 2009.

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  1. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    First off the bat: SHIELD LOVERS FOREVER!!!! [face_laugh][:D]=D=
    I've always been a bigger fan of sword-and-boarding than ginormous-wielding or dual-wielding. I guess it's because people think there's a direct relationship between weapon size/number and power, which media seems to confirm. Your skills are DOUBLED when you wield two weapons, and they grow exponentially if you use a giant sword. [face_laugh]
    Knights, paladins and the like were my favourites, especially since Final Fantasy 4 which sparked my love of paladins. Heck, any fantasy characters I dream up usually wind up with a shield. :D

    And yeah, those were awesome designs. I actually thought it was a clever piece of art direction....Satine's guards had a regal, elaborate knight-like look. You're meant to think they're protecting royalty and keeping the peace. Viszla's guards, on the other hand, had more practical, intimidating armour which looked like it belonged on riot police or shock troopers. There's almost a transition from the knightly armour to the shield-troopers to the traditional Mandalorian armour.

    And I'll say this: I certainly liked the Mandos we've seen so far. It adds a certain dimension when you throw in a different element, and I liked the idea of neutral systems. That said, it's also good seeing that the Death Watch are violent, dangerous and subversive, yet they don't fight to the end but retreat when it's tactically sound.
    Vizsla shooting one of his own men and later ordering them to assist him is a sort of reminder to me that while they're warrior-oriented and vaguely honorable, the Death Watch are still, at their core, murderous and far from fair.

    And now back to our debates on the Mandalorians which is somehow on-topic. I note that it's around two times longer than my actual comments on the materials that made it into the show. :p
    I think the issue isn't that it blocks lightsabers, but that it's just so convenient.

    Cortosis, by what I've read, has its flaws. It's brittle unless forged into an alloy. When forged into an alloy, it simply blocks the saber, not deactivates it. It sometimes weakens the substance it's bonded to.
    Beskar on the other hand, is light, extremely durable and strong, and doesn't really carry any penalties. The only thing is that repeated blows can break it, much like with other metals or the staffs of the magnaguards.

    Well, I think of that as less a genuine admiration of their culture and more of an adolescent fascination with power, coolness, and JETPACKS. ;)

    I wish I could find the will to read Karen's books for a fuller picture, but I'm afraid I'd have to learn rudimentary Klingon...ur...Mando'ade in order to do so. Still, I shall maintain that there's a considerable problem, but it's possibly not as bad as some might think. XD

    There's not really any problem with making a character awesome and multifaceted. The best kind of awesome, I think, is the sort that is grown into, through trials and efforts that readers can relate and connect with. Having different angles works to make a character rounded.
    However, I DO take issue with awesomeness that comes too easily and/or at the expense of other characters which are themselves well established. :p
    And personally, it seems like a huge leap that an entire civilisation dedicated almo
  2. Dynoblaze Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2010
    star 1
    I never thought of that. I guess I always tried comparing them to either the Romans or the Spartans cause of the armor. Maybe a Viking Style of raiding but a Spartan mentality of fighting (No retreat no surrender.)

    Agreed. When you get a whole race of "best at everything" Mando's then the Fett's lose all the appeal they originally had (one of the select few that could beat a Jedi 1 vs 1). You think "why do you even HAVE them if you can replace them with Bob the Mando and get the same result." Just like the Skywalkers are the few Jedi that CAN (unless they are "totally tripping man..") master the force in all it's aspects.
  3. Dynoblaze Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2010
    star 1
    Well, even among the Jedi not all of them are equal. Watch AOTC, a bunch go down HARD in the background. And they have ranks like "Knight" and "Master" (and it's kinda clear the Master are way above the Knights in power level). If fact the best version (IMO) of the Jedi (and Sith) is the Order that is presented in the Darth Bane Novels (some specialize in swordmanship, others in healing, others only on their force powers, etc.).

    Well, the general impression you get from her books (I've only read the Jacen Solo arc so I don't know about RC) are than ALL Mandos can kick the ever loving crap out of ANY Jedi singlehandedly. Maybe that's not what she MEANT but it comes across that way. Even made more apparent when you see their spikes in power levels when a book not written by KT right after reading a book by KT (Jacen Solo coming one squeeze away from death by two of them in one book and then he's taking out an entire squad 'with those same two' in the next.)


  4. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    Y'know, if you can't see how that's different, then I'm sure you have a problem seeing how Spider-Man and Superman are different. Because they both have super powers, right? So they're exactly the same!

    Actually, they do. They did. A lot. You must have missed it, considering it was many years ago, but Thrawn got his round of bashing. Still, he had ONE THING that made him super special (two if you count the alien thing, which at the time made him different, but now is kinda no big deal). And you're fine with writing off the Nulls, because they're one offs, but not one blue alien, who died in the end because of his own arrogance? Oh, and yes, he brought in a Jedi...well, no, a clone of a Jedi, who was crazy and dark side. Yeah...um...so what? He was a bad guy and died as such. He was never held up as the pinnacle of Jedi and Luke figured that out in the span of a chapter.

    The whole picture is, this bad writer turned decent b-list bad guys into the equivalent of Superman. Yeah, each little thing by itself is fine, but if you can't see that taken together it's way out of line, well...I guess there's nothing more to say.

    And yes, mandos being morally superior to Jedi is such a completely and utterly NON-STAR WARS concept, I can't even imagine who in the world would think that's a good idea. For a thousand generations, the Jedi were the protectors of peace a
  5. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    As a longtime fan of classic morality and the Jedi, and as a detractor of tearing down nice guys because it's 'trendy, hip and edgy', I salute you and return your 'wind under my wings' statement. [face_laugh]

    I read something interesting about vikings which could vaguely be applied to Mandalorians: Not all Vikings were vicious pillagers and looters, and the ones who did weren't always that way all the time. It also said that compared to the rest of the world, the vikings weren't any more savage than other ancient kingdoms.

    Of course, it's much harder to apply that same idea considering most appearances go out of their way to make them one or the other. And the other one only applies to a handful of civilisations in Star Wars, like oh, say, the Gamorreans, Trandoshans and the Sith. :p
  6. Thorn058 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2008
    star 2

    You have a order of super beings that have the coolest weapons, the most awesome powers, the freedom to chop people arms off and walk away from the repercussions with a simple "jedi business" or "will of the force" they have fleets of star ships and credits beyond imagination, they can go anywhere and do anything they choose. Some rule vast expanses of the galaxy how is that different then Mando's? Plus any time they fall from grace they are immediately forgiven if they simply repent even after they have destroyed stars and billions of lives it is ok because they went dark and were redeemed. You are right there is absolutely no comparing jedi because the Jedi are the best. Normal galactic citizens just can't compare.



    Nope didn't miss it but when I start seeing a thread where 50 to 60 fans a day start popping in for the sole purpose of saying good riddance he sucks then we can compare the two. Here again you are attributing every mention of superior power or skill to every mando which isn't the case. Kal Skirata is good at hand to hand combat and small unit tactics what other powers does he have? Is he a medic? Is he a slicer? Is he an pilot on par with Anakin Skywalker? Is he all of these things? No he is a good soldier. Zahn did more than introduce a crazy Jedi clone he wrote the original as well and he was every bit as arrogant and overbearing as his clone and causing the deaths of every single Jedi on the Outbound project simply becasue he thought the force meant might makes right and the lowly Alien beat his ass down. Was Zahn wrong?


    A bad writer? by whose standards? I hardly think you make the NYT best sellers list if you are a bad writer. This will no doubt be justified as its Star Wars man, they buy anything doesn't mean it is any good. The equivalent of superman or men? I still have failed to see the large over arcing picture where they are put forth as the pinacle of galactic society. Are they portrayed by her as competant warriors? Yes. Do they have all the cool toys that credits can buy? Yes. IU do they think themselves better than others? Yes. OOU do they think they are better than everyone else? Fictional Characters and they only exist IU so anything else is the reader bringing their own beliefs into the sto
  7. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I disagree with much of course but have been down this road too many times in the past few years. Many of my views, including quotes from the novels supporting my views are over in the Lit threads about KT's novels.

    The only point I'd request an explanation for from Scolai is how he feels that Karen Traviss "mangled" Scout. Perhaps a secondary question would be to ask Scolai how many of Karen's novels he has read and if 501st is included on that list.

    One thing I would note is that in 501st Scout makes it clear that she is a Jedi, that she wants to be a Jedi and that she doesn't want to be a Mandalorian. "It's all I ever wanted to be".

    She also is shown showcasing her athletic skills(as per Dark Rendevous) and showcasing her precognitive powers(as per Dark Rendevous).

    The Jedi as a whole did not believe in her and largely did believe she should be sent to the Agricultural Corps(except Yoda, again as per Dark Rendevous). Thus why she would tell Ny that they didn't think she would amount to anything.

    I'm simply curious in your take on the issue, Scolai.:confused:
  8. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    This has taken a turn which is both vast and yet somewhat probable. [face_laugh]

    I think a good Mandalorian can be a wonderful thing, and a good civilisation can help show growth. I certainly agree that neither the Jedi nor the Mandalorians can be held up as the definitive paragons of morality and skill, as each faction has their own virtues, faults and talents, though speaking for myself, I believe that a dedication to peacekeeping is more likely to leave behind good results than a history of conquest. :p

    In that sense, while I've never read a Traviss novel, I can certainly respect her meticulous expansion of the Mandalorian culture and all the work that goes into them, as well as getting them somewhere that wasn't just 'guy makes stuff go boom'. However, I'd have to take a closer look at the stuff to see whether it does the other characters justice, too.
    It's certainly a VERY difficult thing to do, especially in a universe as vast as Star Wars. Proving a character's worth treads a fine line...work too little and your readers fail to see the point. Work too hard with all the oohs and ahhs, and you're liable to be accused of making a Mary Sue.

    I'm curious about one thing, actually. Did Dark Rendezvous establish that the Jedi thought that Scout wouldn't make it as an actual Jedi? Or was it a later addition by Traviss? :confused:
  9. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    I was going to go through and tear the posts above apart point by point, but I realized I don't have to. If folks have gotten so far off base that they have turned the Jedi into the villains...well, then the Sith truly did win, didn't they?

    WRT Scout, just pull her up on the Wookie and look at the first quote (from DR) and then the third quote (from O66 I believe). If you can rationalize those two as being about the same person...well, again, the Sith's work is done.

    The fact that one author could so horribly lead folks into believing all the heroes are villains and the villains are the heroes is just...sad. Very, very sad. Lord Sidious would be proud.
  10. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Scolai: The Wookeepedia?:confused: You must be joking?

    Those quotes are from two entirely different characters.

    I'm curious about one thing, actually. Did Dark Rendezvous establish that the Jedi thought that Scout wouldn't make it as an actual Jedi? Or was it a later addition by Traviss?

    Koonfan: In Dark Rendevous every Jedi presented except Yoda thought she shouldn't and couldn't be a Jedi. Her connection to the Force was weak, though her will, resolve and work ethic were incredibly strong. Yoda saw something in her that everyone else didn't, and he was right.

    She also bent the rules constantly to try and paint herself in a better light to the Jedi, which many of the Jedi viewed as "cheating". She's an awesome character but not a strong Force user, never was. It had nothing to do with KT.
  11. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    Having the grandmaster of the Jedi Order say he would not let her go, then having her shuttled off to the agri-corp is not a huge contradiction? You can somehow put "Yoda personally wants this person to be a Jedi" and "She was washed out of the Jedi Order" together and not have a problem or think maybe the author mischaracterized this?

    That is some mighty impressive mental acrobatics there. No wonder you can handle the Jedi being evil slave owners and baby snatchers and not blink an eye.
  12. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    Careful there...he could just be illustrating how just as we can dissect the Mandalorians, others can deconstruct the Jedi. :p
    Thorn's examples are certainly very extreme, but then again, modern literature has taken 'tearing down the good guys' and turned it into an art form. And art, as we all know, is meant to be miserable.
    Before long, we'll have people saying that the Jedi were INTENTIONALLY making the galaxy depend on their peacekeeping abilities so that they'd be FORCED to depend on them for a number of reasons. :cool:[face_devil]:rolleyes:;)

    To play Mando's advocate, though, it IS an easy trapdoor to fall into: Pointing out the flaws without the virtues, which started all the way back to Lucas and the PT. Citing past, different examples is certainly easier than trying to find the good in what's the target. But then again, Luke Skywalker didn't say "Yeah, my father is dead, you have to die." No, he said "There is still good in him." That's something I think every Star Wars fan should carry with them, even if I and many others forget it sometimes. ;)

    Maybe the Traviss Mandos DO have their virtues touted about too much, maybe they DO have some form of Sue-charisma. Still, the work that went into trying to flesh them out and have their civilisation evolve into something positive could be admired, whatever the net result.

    EDIT: Bear in mind that even in the movies, what Yoda thinks personally doesn't necessarily equate to law in the Jedi Order. He WAS against training Anakin as a Jedi, but in the end, followed the will of the Jedi Council. It's possible he didn't have enough of a say in the matter, or it was resolved behind his back.

    Ahh, thanks for that. :D
    I've got a better idea of what Karen Traviss did with Scout now (not so full as reading her stuff, buuuut, you go with what you have :p), and it seems like a fair usage. Nice to know she didn't fabricate the 'Scout must fail' idea amongst the Jedi...she simply decided to place her in the most positive surroundings she could imagine.

    My guess is that it could have been taken as a sign that the Jedi of that time, for all the good they still do, were too mired in tradition and protocol, which was also true. Still, I like to think that it's not THAT big a disparity, and there are still a large number of Jedi who would show compassion and understanding of Scout's case.

    It could also be said that the Mandalorian's comments on Scout's worth was partly influenced by Scout's abilities meshing well with their way of life, and for whatever virtues they have, a Mandalorian talking about Jedi is still a partly 'unreliable' narrator. Y'know..."Why did they have to save that world? They should have let it burn so that the inhabitants could stand on their own two feet." [face_mischief]
  13. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    What you're saying, Koonfan, that you'll have people saying the Jedi were forcing their peacekeeping, is exactly what Traviss did. Not to offend anyone here, but she's the Fox News of Star Wars when it comes to writing. Fair and balanced she is not, and extremely proud of it. Heck, she specifically wrote a short story, Odds, as a revenge piece against fans who disagreed with her clone numbers!

    This is like turning the Red Cross into vampires and Habitat for Humanity into deforesting bulldozer drivers. Seriously. Saying she went "a little too far" is like saying that using a tank to open a jar of pickles was "a little too far".

    And again, it's not all mandos that are a problem. It's her version. Other authors did not go to the extremes she did, and their version of the mandos are quite enjoyable. Matt Stover's take on them wasn't bad at all, for example. If you take the basics out of her stuff and strip away the Jedi hate and overblown abilities, yeah, you have some good characters.

    Edit: And just so you know, I don't like Matt Stover very much either, and used to argue with him here (many years ago) that Vergere and her philosophy in NJO was pure Sith (and guess who won that one in the end!). However, there's stuff he's written that's good, and I'll give him props on it.
  14. koonfan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2008
    star 4
    Oh, well, hmm. I did NOT expect that my overblown example of Jedi hatedom's logical conclusion to actually exist. [face_worried][face_skull]
    Still, it's excellent that you can still appreciate the good. Some people hardly do that anymore these days. XD

    To try and get SOMETHING contributed before a Mod inevitably shows up to get us back on track, though...

    I would REALLY like to see an uncertain Mandalorian antagonist on-screen, played straight and given good attention. It would make for an interesting dynamic and conflict to see someone who actually disagrees with the Death Watch yet is forced to work with them. Kind of like the idea of seeing truly noble and well-intentioned Separatist leaders, only in a smaller renegade group.

    I could even see this Mando have a building character arc where he finds moments to discuss his philosophy with others, reaching a climax when he defies Viszla and the Death Watch. True, we've already seen Satine comfort a terrorist, but still...think how much more powerful it'd be if we felt a connection with him. :)

    If the Mandalorians return in other story arcs, this would be one of my wishes. That, and LASER SHOOTING MELEE WEAPONS. :D
    "That's a chainsaw?"
    "AND it shoots lasers."
  15. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    Yeah, o.k. to get back on topic...

    Having the whole "secret army" thing be true would be pretty neat, especially if basically everyone in the government but Satine knows it's happening.

    Also, chainsaws shooting lasers would probably be the best episode ever. I cannot find fault with this idea.
  16. Obey Wann Former RMFF CR & SW Region RSA

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2000
    star 6
    Wow, so much discussion --too deep for me.

    Just for the record, I did watch the first episode (I have to stream it.) It was OK at best. Mandalore was very boring to me. It's like they watched too much of the LOTR special features about creating a new society and having those shapes and influences filter into all aspects of the visual design and went overboard with the concept. It reminded me of the Dwarves... just more square. Too square and boring.

    As far as the Mandos shown... meh. They all have the same color scheme (ok, so they are all part of "Death Watch", so that might explain it), but they were boring Jango lookalikes. No individuality, no pizzaz, nothing. And their "super spiffy" armor was shot through with one blast from a handheld blaster. :rolleyes: Sorry, but that pretty much kills the mystique as far as I'm concerned. These guys were nothing more than clones with jet packs.

    Now I barely read the KT books and have not played KOTR and barely know any of the references you all are going into such depth on, so I'm just a semi-casual fan on this topic. Meaning, I have no major reference to go on other than the movies and a light reading of the RC series. All I can say is so far, I am completely and totally unimpressed. Vizla was a thug and nothing more and his "darksaber" was more of a "dorksaber" as far as I'm concerned.

    If this is the best that Filoni and company can come up with, then I have a bad feeling about where the show is going.
  17. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    Heh heh...dorksaber.

    I like that.

    Pre Viszla, wielder of the ancient dorksaber!
  18. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    When did she go to the agri-corps? I mean it was suggested throughout Dark Rendevous that that would have been the best place for her by many Jedi, but what proof do you have that she actually was shipped to the agri-corps?

    You don't have any because none exists. Again your resorting to making up facts I suspect because you have not read the novels in question.

    Some Jedi certainly did, she had friends and convinced a couple more Jedi of her worth during the book(they die unfortunatly), but in the end the only one really in her corner was Yoda. The story takes place only 6 months or so before the end of the war so Karen was almost picking her up right from where Sean Stewart left off.

    I suspect that Scout was trying to appeal to how she would be useful to a farming community when she told Ny that she could help grow things. Ny is not a Mandalorian in reality, but a friend to them none the less.

    Actually many of even the most vocal anti-Traviss fans in Lit felt that Scout was done justice by Karen in 501st.

    Dark Rendevous is such an excellent novel, do check it out if you get the chance.

    Which would make you what of theforce.net forums exactly?:p I joke, but really your being very heavy handed, making things up and are stating everything you say as fact. If you can't substantiate certain claims how do you think that makes you appear here?[face_peace]

    I'm just wondering because I am open to discussion and open to critcism of Karen and her books, always have been. You won't see me defending her blog statements or certain aspects of her novels because I can totally see why you would feel the way you do.

    That said there is a lot about KT's books that you seem to be skipping over(if you've even read them), or that you seem to have completely missed or are simply convienently ignoring. Yeah, Karen having Carid kneecap Caedus was a poor scene(though Caedus was clearly presented as stretched and exhausted), but what about Boba's compliments toward Jaina Solo or the Jedi helping the Fondorian rescue workers, or Pellaeon's kind words toward the Jedi. They are all in that book as well.

    Why are those types of scenes not worth mentioning?:confused:

    This is largely a seperate discussion. For instance Jorus C'baoth had no issues with taking a Force sensetive child from his parents without their consent. Darsha Assant didn't seem to have any knowledge of Jedi recruitment techniques and acknowledges that Lorn Pavan's charge that the Jedi tricked him into turning his child over to the Jedi was a possibility.

    We also have a Jedi snatching a Force sensetive child without permission from a mother in the Darktimes comic series and Count Dooku's various POV's on the subject. Some of Dooku's thoughts on the matter would of course be suspect but why he would spend time thinking to himself about how flawed the Jedi's recruitment methods were if he didn't b
  19. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    Robimus, I post at work most of the time, so I don't have access to the novels in question (which aren't actually at my house either - I read most through the library). So it's hard for me to quote you chapter and verse, and honestly I don't care to. When the author herself admits to being biased against the Jedi, I don't really think much more is needed to be said. As for her minor brushes with amends, again, can you whack someone repeatedly in the head with a hammer and then hand them a band-aid and it makes it o.k.?

    Also, since I don't, y'know, actively represent LFL, Del Rey or Star Wars as a whole, I can be as opinionated and biased as I want. So can you, and we both often are, yes? So your question about the Fox News thing makes me wonder, do you consider individuals expressing their opinion the same as a mass media presentation with a company backing it? The day I can write articles and stories for Insider and use it to specifically trash people on the boards, you can compare me to Fox. Till then, I'm just another anonymous voice in the crowd.

    That being said, I'm done with talking about Karen Traviss. You like her, bully for you. Enjoy her books. I look forward to Star Wars without her.

    Also, on the Stover front, I meant I don't like most of Stover's work. As a person he's o.k., though his arguments against Vergere being a Sith bordered on "I'm the author and I say so!", but hey, he got overridden later down the road. I didn't mean to imply I had a specific dislike for him as an individual, though I disagree with many of his feelings about Star Wars and the nature of the Force. It was meant to be an example of the fact that I can disagree with an author and even dislike their work and still appreciate when they have a valid point of view.
  20. Thorn058 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2008
    star 2
    Scolai- I was not in any way trying to turn the jedi into villians and the mando into heroes. You gave a list to Robimus af reasons why you felt in just one book Traviss was making Mando approach Gary Stu levels. I attempted to answer in claim and also pointing out similarities to Jedi which the very few take issue with. In other words you cry foul at Mando's having all the cool toys but the jedi are ok to have the same stuff. See by bringing in the Jedi I was saying if you are going to scream "Stu" because of all these things you have lumped together about what Traviss has written about Mandalorians then you must also scream "Stu" about the Jedi because their list of greatness is longer than mando supermen. Everything outside of that is my attempt to level the playing field and bring the two opposing sides closer to center. Something I think the current novel series is trying.

    Robimus- I think KT offered up a nice option of choices to Scout in 501st. The first being a mother and father figure. The old ways were passing with the purge and while Scout could honor her Jedi heritage she could still become part of a family and learn skills that she probably wouldn't had the order survived. She didn't write her as being forced to choose between being Mando and being Jedi but rather gave her the option of being whatever she wanted. I wouldn't expect her to go native as Jusik has done and start wearing armor but I could see her spending time becoming a family member and then going out into the galaxy to use "all" her skills in service to the force.

    Koonfan- I regret having to go to such extremes but sometimes in order to make a point that people aren't seeing or refuse to see you have to get drastic. To my way of thinking the mando culture what ever it ends up being is no better and no worse than any other culture in the Star Wars Universe. Do they at times approach the dreaded Mary Sue/Gary Stu heights? Well yes if you lump everything together and attribute them to all Mandos( women, children, the old) then yes it is a huge Stu. However you can't do that because it is a culture of individuals. It would be like claiming every person living around Fort Benning is a Green Beret simply because of all the things a small group can do, individually, within a community or culture. The guy working the counter at Avis rent a car is no where near as talented as the Tech Sgt who speaks three languages, knows how to handle every weapon in the US and Warsaw pact arsenal, is trained to fight in hand to hand combat and has the skill to train local populations and turn them into an effective fighting force. yet lump them together and as Scolai says you have to cry "Stu" I am simply saying why are you lumping them together when individually there are logical reasons for everything, which I gave him and he lumped everything back together again.

    The moral question-There is a huge difference in us as fans and readers bringing our morality into Star Wars and trying to get into a characters head within the star Wars universe. If I am writing characters who have had an age old feud with the Jedi and there are strong opinions including a sense of moral superiority when it comes to the treatment of clones why is it necessary to provide someone as the token voice of reason and who points out the lies behind those characters belief? Does this happen in real life? If I hate Star Trek fans with a white hot hatred of a thousand suns and all of my opinions and thoughts are based lies or fabricated stories spoon fed to me with no real backing should i expect some random Trekker to suddenly pop up and say "No those are lies we never do that"? Isn't a more logical plot line having me discover through my own experience that all my preconceived ideas and opinions are wrong? That being confronted with my ignorance would be enough to change my opinions and that instead of burnign white hot hatred I would instead just have a grudging dislike? That could just be me.

    Now as far as me bringing the jedi and their list of negative things
  21. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    I'm sorry, if you can't see the difference, there's nothing I can do to help make it clearer, and the discussion will be pointless. You don't seem to understand what a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is, or how they work, or why inserting a "more powerful/pretty/moral/smarter/etc. than the main characters" character (in this case, a whole society of them) into a story line that is already established is a bad thing and reeks of fan fiction. So...moving on...


    You have a voice of reason because that's good writing. It also shows that the author does not necessarily believe what the characters profess. The author/narrator of the story in omniscient writing should make sure that if a view point is only held by a certain group, it does not become the default view point for everything. If all her stories were written in a log/diary/first person in universe voice, there'd be no problem at all, but they are not.

  22. Thorn058 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2008
    star 2
    A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

    "Mary Sues" can be either male or female, but male characters are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.[1] While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such.



    My understanding of the term has always been that an author seemingly makes their character to be larger than life supermen who can do no wrong. Perhaps I am wrong in that assumption and I am willing to admit it. However your original statement to Robimus was that Traviss placed the Mando on a pedestal and you listed reason why you held that belief. I took each and every instance on that list and gave a plausible reason for them which disputes the line of thinking that they are made out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and makes them Mary Sue's. Which you sidestepped by saying sure if you look at each one they are fine but as a whole it is just wrong no one should be that perfect. Sure if you lump everything together like that is seems impractical and wrong ignoring rationales for those events. So I said if you are going to lump them all together lets look at something similar, the Jedi. I matched your lumped list by providing one of similar Sue like qualities when taken as a whole. If you are going to say it is just not right for the mandos to have all these things whys is it right that the Jedi do? If you take each and every thing you named off the table with a reasonable explanation the near godlike supermen become nothing more than a warrior culture that is acknowledged as near the best at fighting and killing and not at much beyond that. Where is the problem?



    Please point to me the list of authors and their works in the Star Wars universe that have done this good writing technique? When all the citizens of the empire are called evil where is the character who stands up and says no they are not. When some one says that every last soul on the Death Star deserved to die where is your character saying that many of them were doing there duty or what they felt was right. Where is the character that says that Dooku has a justified point in the reasons behind the CIS and that many of the systems left the Republic because they wanted a different path than the one they saw the Republic hurtling towards. In any regards this is again your opinion on how a good writer should approach the subject and as Robimus stated earlier you are making it out as fact instead of opinion.

  23. AhsokaMiro Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2008
    star 3
    I'd chime in here and add that that kind of nonsense, where half of the Jedi flip back and forth between light and dark at the drop of a hat and tend to commit ur-Vader-level genocides when they're dark, is every bit as anathema to me as overpowered Mandos.

    I'm following this as well as I can, not having read the EU for quite some time, and here's where it all points as far as I can see. You can kind of make these kinds of comparisons within the farther flung reaches of the EU, where super-Mandos and temporarily dark Jedi run free, but it doen't track within the timeframes of the films (and TCW). Why? Because it doesn't track with what we see onscreen. The Jedi we see are *clearly* not morally schizophrenic a-holes. They have some degree of arrogance, but they worry about and struggle with that internally; they aren't myopic about it. Anakin's fall only makes sense as a big deal if it's very, very unusual, so it must be-- hell, even Ki-Adi and Mace don't believe Dooku has truly fallen. So if someone write the PT/TCW-era Jedi as heartless maniacs, I'll call shenanigans on that.

    WRT whether or not the Jedi are cops, the scene in question-- the Outlander Club-- answers that in and of itself. Look at the reaction of the patrons IU. "Jedi business, go back to your drinks" totally suffices as an explanation for the patrons. Whereas pulling a blaster on a farmboy in a rough and tumble Mos Eisley cantina freaks people out. You might argue that the Outlander patrons are too scared of the Jedi to do anything about it, but that's not what I see onscreen... the extent to which those folks are afraid of the Jedi seems roughly commensurate with the degree to which people in any given bar would be afraid of, like, cops.

    Also, a lot of bestselling authors are indeed pretty dreadful.
  24. Thorn058 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2008
    star 2
    Very true and many times that is a matter of personal choice and opinion. I have friends that absolutely love Stephen King while to me he is just not my thing. Does that mean I think he is a horrible writer and I should trash everything he writes? No it just means that his stories while wonderfully written and having a universal appeal aren't the type of thing I read. he doesn't do it for me so should I call him a bad writer because he writing doesn't speak to me? No I just choose not to read it and move on.

    I don't think any one writes the PT/TCW-era jedi as heartless maniacs. Traviss offered up the opinion that maybe accepting a slave army breed for the single purpose of fighting a war and denying them the basic rights of citizens in the republic is not the best choice for an order founded on peace and justice. The Republic is accepting them as property or for practical matters slaves which violates their anti-slave laws yet we are offered no proof whether on screen, in EU or in any other format that the Jedi object to this treatment. Qui-gon tells Padme in TPM that they can only protect her not fight a war for her and yet the first thing they do when presented with a clone army is take it and lead it agianst the Seps. Where is the moral high ground here? This is a view that Traviss proposed coupled with a small group of mandos who were holding a grudge over things in the past and some genetically enhanced super soldiers who did harbor a grudge against their creators for summarily killing their kind for the crime of being less than 100% perfect and you have the perfect storm. It looks like she is aggrandizing her pet mandos and setting them on a pedestal while bringing her Jedi bias to bear and making them out to be evil. She never writes that all mando as supermen nor does she write that they all hate the Jedi, some do to a degree for past wrongs and some are indifferent and so resent them for teh choice to lead the clones instead of refusing on principle. Thee things get lost in the shuffle because of statements made in public regarding the subject by the author that set fire to the brians of some fans. I mean just look at Scolai reaction to my assertation that the Jedi could be viewed as being slightly bad. I mean he is going off like Bones form Star Trek, I am still waiting for him to call me a green blooded inhuman SOB why because i floated a theory that flies against everything he holds to be true. That is what discussion is a free exchange of ideas that we can all listen too and talk about and discern what is the truth. Is that not what we are trying to do here albeit somewhat unsuccessfully?

  25. Scolai Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2009
    star 2
    O.k....let me try to explain this in other terms, and maybe you'll get it. Harry Potter is not a Gary Stu, because the series he stars in is about him. He and his friends were created a certain way, and are the focal point of the books. Now, if an author comes along and makes a character set in the Harry Potter world who is more powerful than Harry, more skilled than Hermione and funnier than Ron, it's a Mary Stu/Gary Stu. Individually, each of those things is no big deal - someone is always better or smarter or funnier. Giving all of them to the SAME individual is bad writing.

    In this case, you're looking at a whole groups instead of individuals. The Jedi are the good guys and have their abilities because they are the protagonists of the Star Wars story. Period. They exist because the universe exists. They are not an afterthought. Much as wizards are to HP, big stompy robots are to Transformers, or pirates are to the Caribbean.


    Let's see, in order: Thrawn, Dalaa, Pellaeon, Mara Jade, and a host of others for the Empire is not all evil, the Death Star thing...you're pulling from nowhere, no one said anything to that effect, only that it either went up in smoke or the rebels did...Dooku and the CIS would be Padme, Episode 3 ("What if we're fighting on the wrong side?"). And yeah, my opinion as well as pretty much every Creative Writing 101 teacher in the civilized world.

    Additionally, when you're writing from the omniscient, you do indeed need to stick to the rules of the world your working in with all non-verbalized stuff. In other words, making everyone and every action agree with your specific protagonist is not good if what your protagonist stands for is the opposite of the world they are in. I hate to fall back to Harry Potter (I'm not even really a fan of it), but if someone wrote a book
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