Saga How does the PT improve the OT?

Something I've noticed over the years of these discussions is that most praise/defense of the PT centers on ways in which the PT is "better" than the OT - expanded scope, exploration of moral grey areas, etc. There's also a lot of discussion of how the PT functions as a commentary on the OT, but that strikes me as counterproductive to the idea of a 1-2-3-4-5-6 Saga.

It seems to me that for the Saga to be a success, the first half can't be wildly superior to the second. It should build in quality to a climax both narrative and artistic. I've heard "It's okay to lose the shock of Vader=Anakin because we get Sidious=Palpatine which is just as good," but what I haven't heard is what the viewing of TESB gains to make up for the loss of its dramatic crux.

An example of what I'm looking for would be something like, "Vader's turn from evil in RotJ is enhanced by everything we went through with the man under the mask." What does the PT bring to the table that makes something in the OT better than it was before?

 

Well, besides the fact that I would not be a Star Wars fan were it not for the PT, there's many areas where the PT adds greater depth to the OT that, on its own, I feel it lacks.

For one, the PT greatly deepens the Luke and Vader story. It helps to explain Luke's otherwise incomprehensible mission to save his father. I mean, in ESB, we see Vader do nothing around Luke that would suggest he could be saved, yet Luke arrives by ROTJ committed to his father's redemption. You can't even ascribe this to Luke becoming a Jedi since Obi-Wan and Yoda both tell him he needs to kill his father. By having Padme repeat Luke's words from ROTJ, it helps to connect the idea that Padme's spirit lives on through her son who is the only one, like her, to see the good in Anakin. As Yoda says in ESB, even friends who are long departed are still with us. And once Luke accepts that Vader is his father, it makes sense, to me, that he would hear his mother's dying words resonate.

The PT also explains Vader's otherwise inexplicable rescue of Luke. Why does Vader save his son from the Emperor at the cost of his life? He's never indicated before that he sees Luke as more than a tool to achieve dominance over the galaxy and was perfectly happy to let him fall at Bespin. Because Anakin turned (in part) to save Padme's life, his saving of Luke makes more sense in light of the PT. This is a man loves his family, once dreamed of a home, and he realizes, at the end, that the turning to the Dark Side cost him his wife when he could no longer control his anger and that staying on the Dark Side will cost him his son. It also wonderfully ties into Palpatine's words "young fool, only now at the end do you understand." I mentioned on another thread that this is one of my favorite moments in the Saga because, although spoken to Luke, it is Anakin who finally understands. Anakin, who has been a fool for so long and made such horrific choices, finally accepts the Force and fulfills his destiny.

There's also the different styles the trilogies employ. I know many people don't like the more formal, rigid dialogue of the PT, but I feel that this helps to bolster the OT's tone of friendship and unity. The OT comes off as slightly campy without the PT (IMO), but when it's compared against it, we can see that people have finally realized the importance of brotherhood and hope in these difficult times -- propriety, status, and duty aren't everything . This also applies to the industrial, mechanized, colorless world that the OT characters inhabit. It effectively demonstrates the Empire's suppression of creativity and beauty for beauty's sake that existed in the PT's very elaborate universe.

Those are just a few reasons. I can elaborate if you'd like.

 

In addition to almost everything PiettsHat says above (which for the most part: ), I would add that, as an old-time fan who grew up watching the films in their original theatrical releases from '77-'83, the PT is not "wildly superior" to the OT and is not absolutely necessary in order to enjoy, understand or appreciate it... but it does enhance it in several ways.

Luke's mission to save his father is not "incomprehensible" without the PT, as PiettsHat avows. This is the one issue I have with his otherwise spot-on post. We fans understood Luke's reasons for 22 years without fully fathoming that he is carrying on Padme's will or seeing Anakin with her eyes. Simply put, Luke loves his father and can intuitively see the good in him; as it turns out, of course, he was right all along. A son's love for his father and wish to save him from himself is not "incomprehensible". But at the same time, the events of ROTS more fully explain that indeed, there is still good in Anakin. Padme knew it (qv her dying words), we the audience know it (qv his weeping on Mustafar, among other clues), and Luke knows it too. Our comprehension of Vader's buried goodness is thereby enhanced.

Likewise, our grasp of Kenobi's motives in lying to Luke in 'ANH' is improved -- or failing that, our sense of outrage at his mendacity is increased -- by our understanding of the events which led to the lie. Anakin/Vader performed heinous deeds; with the PT we've seen first-hand the outcome of his betrayal and murder. Yoda's complaint to Luke that "not ready for the burden were you" becomes clear in its intent, even if we may personally disagree with the decision. If a young man, just starting out in life on the path of righteousness, knew that his own father was the most atrocious murderer the Galaxy had ever seen (as we the audience have now clearly seen with our own eyes), that young man might question the goodness in his own heart, and choose poorly when the path divides. Kenobi's lie thus becomes a comprehensible mistake; or, if we cannot comprehend it, we at least understand more fully what is at stake.

And as PiettsHat has said: "Those are just a few reasons. I can elaborate if you'd like."

 

The issue about Obi-Wan that gets me, though, is his glowing picture of the Jedi Order. I can't truly put myself in the shoes of a first-time viewer, but the Jedi come off as such schmucks in the PT that I feel like the Saga undermines audience support for Luke's quest to become a Jedi and restore that Order.

 

I suppose you have a point there. A son's love for his father isn't incomprehensible, especially Luke who truly cherished the memory of his "heroic" father. I guess where I take issue is that it seems almost foolhardy for Luke to risk everything on his father's goodness (which so far hadn't manifested itself) without some other sign. Leia doesn't seem particularly hopeful about her brother's chances of converting their father, so I find that the inclusion of Padme makes a bit more sense. It also nicely ties into why Luke starts asking Leia about their mother -- he senses her spirit urging him on. I phrased my point rather poorly. You're right; Luke's desire to save his father was already comprehensible, but the prequels, through Padme, gave Luke the impetus of faith he needed, I feel.

I would say that it works effectively if you consider the tragedy of Obi-Wan's story. He lost almost everyone he knew and loved, as well as his home, in a single day. Were the Jedi perfect? No, but they were Obi-Wan's family and all he had ever known. Of course, times during the PT weren't perfect, but they were far happier. Alec Guinness does a marvelous job of exuding Obi-Wan's sadness and burdens through his countenance. And, to be honest, the Jedi were never perfect in the OT. They lied to Luke about his father and tried to have him kill him. They were also wrong about Anakin being able to turn back. I don't necessarily think the Jedi Order comes across as glowing in either trilogy.

 

I was determined not to post in this thread, but this post is just perfect! Indeed, I consider ROTJ to be a "misunderstood" episode for a long time, because it introduces a new ultimate villain (replacing Vader) and trasforms Vader into a sympathetic character. All that is much better understood with the PT. And I totally agree with your second paragraph! While the characters of the PT are more distant, rigid and formal (and therefore,they fail), the OT is the era of the real friendship(filled with campy dialogue and funny interactions between them, since none of them takes the others seriously!), and that's what defeats evil!

 

The Jedi may come across as dupes in the prequels, but they are our protagonists and their predicament doesn't stop them from being sympathetic characters. I'm reminded of the animated feature Aladdin, where one character is pulling all the strings, and only the princess seems to see through his act. I have a hard time imagining some six-year old watching ROTS going "Its so obvious that they're being manipulated. They're so retarded, etc." It seems to me that the films themselves aren't to blame for the antagonistic eye with which we the fans have watched them. In short, the Jedi of the prequels are not schmucks to the rest of the world. They're heroes in a kiddie flick.

With that out of the way, here's my first crack at the topic question:

IV: The galaxy doesn't look lived-in as much as it looks DEFEATED. Our heroes are no longer the officials of the galaxy, they're the criminals. On the other hand, gone is the sense of seriousness and foreboding that permeated Episodes II and III, and the title A New Hope is expressed not only through the story and the characters, but with the triumphant tone of certain musical cues. We also get to see Obi-Wan finally become a Qui-Gon, the learner becomes the master, and its satisfying to see him make it.

V: The Saga turns The Empire Strikes Back into not just the turning point in the story for our heroes from the preceding movie, but the lowest point for our characters in the entire film cycle. The Rebellions defeat on Hoth takes on a new sense of terror. Before, we were watching an unfortunate loss within a war movie. Now that the audience's first introduction to an environment on land is the lush and fertile grassland of Naboo, the stark barren whiteness of Hoth stands in contrast, and we as an audience feel the pain of the galaxy who has lost all sense of natural beauty. The Empire's AT's and ST's have always been morbid parodies of animals, but now that we actually see the grace of nature in the PT, the heavy clunky things that the Empire uses to dash the growing hopes of our heroes are not only physically intimidating but so much uglier and just plain wrong. Yoda, instead of being seated on a floating apparatus in a pristine Temple where people look to him, is a crazy little man crawling around a filthy swamp. Of course, Yoda's weary expressions take on a new weight, and his lessons aren't just an extension of the wisdom of the preceding movie, but a commentary on Anakin's weaknesses. Vader's interest in Luke loses some mystery, but by the time he slices off Luke's hand and reaches out for him, we not only recognize that Anakin has become the thing he hates, but we also recognize his stagnation as a character. He's stuck on Mustafar, hurting the ones he loves, and always grasping for more, and he cannot help himself.

VI: The title Return takes on more meaning. Its not just a return to Tattooine or a return to the unresolved conflicts of the prequels, its a return to the lighthearted fun of TPM. I'll admit that ROTJ actually loses some of its punch where the exposition scenes are concerned. It kind of tells the audience what it already knows about the prequels, even if Luke does not. I guess the upside to this is that since the events are being refreshed and re-told to the audience, we are encouraged to see the young Skywalkers completing their father's journey. Leia kills Jabba, and frees herself from slavery. She proves herself to be an impressive pilot on Endor. She demonstrates kindness to strangers with Wicket. We see the chosen one's droid worshiped as a god. But the moment that really gets magnified by the prequels for me is the de-masking scene. At this point, we as an audience sort of expect to see Hayden's face when Luke de-masks him. But its not. We're forced to look at his Mustafar-damaged face yet again, and it looks even worse than before. Not only has all his hair been burned off, but he has these indentations in his head from the mask. The kindness in his eyes isn't a surprise to us because we know he was a loving person from the prequels. Instead the pale ugl

 

There is no loss to be had. The power of the ESB revelation doesn't derive from any shock elicited from the audience, but from Luke. The apocalypse is his; as such, the prequels have done nothing to diminish this.

On the other hand, the PT has finally allowed me to see the apocalypse through Vader's prism. Only now can I see his misguided idealism. Now, his offer to Luke is not so much a ruse or pitch as it is a plea. And now, there is genuine pathos to the image of his dipped head, trailing his son's descent. In this moment, he can't help but feel the pall of Padme, and be tormented in watching the family tragedy repeat itself.

He murdered the mother of his child, and now, he drove the only good thing to emerge from their union to suicide.

In my eyes, this elevates the scene in question, rendering it as affecting, as profoundly moving, as the passage from The Godfather: Part III, when Michael whispers to his confessor: "I killed my mother's son...I killed my father's son."

 

Also, food for thought: Luke, at the end of the saga, does not really indicate that he wishes to rebuild the Order differently from the old Jedi Order. There was no conversation where Obi-Wan urged Luke to learn from his and Yoda's mistakes. Luke could have very well created an order filled with the same self-righteous dirtbags as the original. After all, his two masters were part of the ultra-conservative Old Guard. Thankfully, he didn't.

 

Whenever Luke throws down his saber in ROTJ I now think of the scene in AOTC where Obi-Wan tells Anakin that "this weapon is your life." By Luke's action it's almost as if he's answering back through time, "no, it's not." Thus the ROTJ scene simply carries additional meaning for me as another aspect of Luke's triumph is revealed--he's not just resisting evil on a personal level, he's also atoning for the errors of the old order.

 

The Jedi may come across as dupes in the prequels, but they are our protagonists and their predicament doesn't stop them from being sympathetic characters.

The Jedi didn't fare that well in the OT, especially from the moment when Luke discovered that Vader was his father.

 

Then again, it did save him from the wampa.

 

The main thing the PT improved for the OT was Palpatine's character.

 

Here is what the PT improves on the OT for me: Ever since I saw ROTJ for the first time in 1983, I wanted to know who Anakin Skywalker was. What was he like as a Jedi? How did he relate to Obi-Wan Kenobi? Who was the woman that he had loved, and married? (The novelization indicated that they were married, although the movie never mentioned it.) Where was he when his children were born and why were they raised separately? Why did he turn against the Jedi and join the Dark Side? Which "friends" was he trying to save? (I knew even then that Anakin's turn would involve saving someone or several someones, based on the Emperor's line to Luke.)

The PT answered all those questions for me. I was somewhat surprised by the answers but I was never disappointed. OK, I was disappointed with one thing: Anakin's gullibility in the face of Palpatine's manipulations. And their complete stubbornness in not allowing him contact with his mother. I could actually deal with their rule against marriage, but rules that keep parents away from their children border on insane to me.

I was somewhat interested in seeing the Jedi Knights as "guardians of the Old Republic" but I was not all that upset when they turned out to have flaws, and to not be exactly like Obi-Wan had described. I still see them as noble "guardians of the Old Republic," just very insulated and complacent ones.

As far as Luke not rebuilding the new Order exactly like the old one, and no conversation between Luke and Obi-Wan or Yoda about the mistakes of the old Order: I felt, even before the prequels, that there was a lot left unsaid about Jedi mistakes. I just didn't know what those were. I also never felt that Luke saw Obi-Wan or Yoda as perfect. They did tell him to kill his father, after all. And he essentially told them to shove it, he wasn't doing that. And he turned out to be right about Anakin whereas they were wrong.

 

"...what I haven't heard is what the viewing of TESB gains to make up for the loss of its dramatic crux."

The scene in TESB in which Yoda and Ben fail to convince Luke to stay is now my favorite (non-action) scene in the film. It's heartbreaking; the two remaining Jedi master's went into exile to protect Luke's future and here he is in a hurry to seemingly throw it away. As Ben and Yoda realize Luke IS leaving no matter what they say, they both attempt to arm the boy with last second knowledge. "Don't give into hate. That leads to the dark side."

The dramatic irony on the part of the audience for the battle(s) on Bespin between Luke and Vader is really deepened by the PT, and a Saga order viewing. At first, Vader is toying with the boy, trying to freeze him. Vader steps things up as he force hurls objects at his son, and eventually shoots him out the window. I like the shot where Vader looks out the window to see Luke climbing back up for dear life; one might interpret a little parental pride - "Good for my boy. He DIDN'T plunge to his death."

Finally, Vader just goes on a tear. After seeing the anger Vader experiences at being cut on the shoulder, and watching their hero lose his hand, a fist-time audience now gets to experience Luke's complete defeat when his father reveals his true identity.

While, the original question was about TESB, I will add that I never forget watching ROTJ for the first time after seeing ROTS. Where I used to see Palpatine's evil as kind of fun, I have never been happier to see Anakin wake up and that evil son-of-a-gun down that shaft. The burning of the pyre scene also took on a deeper meaning for me.

What was traded speculation for the deeper understanding/meaning of the OT that comes with the PT is very much worth it.

 

Simply put... before the prequels were made, nobody understood why Vader was always letting that "Emperor" character boss him around.

Now we can see how the Emperor, and Vader throwing him down the sharft in ROTJ, wasn't just a plot device added later to enable Vader to redeem himself.

 

The prequels aren't flawless, but their direction improves upon the OT in certain ways. We see how low the Jedi were brought during the Clone Wars, how desperate Obi-Wan truly was to lie to Luke, why Yoda's warning to not underestimate the Emperor was so important, and how twisted Vader truly was.

 

I think Luke's vision of Han and Leia in TESB is enhanced tremendously by the PT. We now know that Anakin himself was plagued by such visions and in part it lead him to the darkside. Obi-Wan and Yoda concern in Empire is given much more weight as it looks like history will repeat itself.

 

How does the PT improve the OT??

To be honest, I hardly cared much about Obi Wan Kenobi even though I liked his character but after seeing ROTS, he is now one of my all time favourites. I can?t help how I feel about certain characters because when Obi Wan comes to mind, I think about how the events of ROTS had changed him. Knowing that he spends 20 years alone on Tatoonie in a hut makes me feel sorry for him because during those times, he thinks about what went wrong and why he failed Anakin Skywalker. What gets me the most is how and why their friendship had turned to a bitter end on Mustafar. He was a good friend to Anakin and this is one of my fave quotes:

"For Anakin, there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I've ever met?loyal beyond reason; in fact [?] abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him? because he knows I would do the same for him."

When he sacrifices his life for Luke while fighting Darth Vader, his importance to the SW saga is so powerful. I think that even though Obi Wan still feels bad for losing Anakin to the dark side, one of the reasons he trains Luke is that he wants to redeem himself because of his failure and that if he is capable of that, then maybe there is still a chance that Anakin can be saved. I always wondered why he had that look on his face before Vader striked him down.
Maybe he foresaw a glimpse of both Luke and Vader?s future?

Anakin Skywalker is my first favourite because of how complex his character arc is. I wanted to know why he became Darth Vader. What were the first steps he took towards the dark path? How did he meet Obi Wan Kenobi, Yoda and his ?wife?. Understanding Anakin Skywalker, the man he was before he became Vader makes his redemption so powerful that I too want to throw Palpatine down the death star?s throat!! Lol. I hate Palpatine. After ROTS, seeing how he manipulated Anakin and the senate makes me hate him so much more. My fave scene in ROTJ is when Luke confronts Vader and tries to turn him back to the good side because he believes Anakin is somewhere inside the black armor. Luke, repeating his mother?s dying words breaks my heart when I think of how hard Padme tried to bring Anakin back to the good side and failed. I say Obi wan thought so too but maybe he stopped believing during his long years in exile. I know, he was busy watching over young Luke.

Bail Organa played a minor but key role in ROTS but I loved how he tried his best to aid the Jedi towards the end. He took Leia in as his own daughter because of what happened to Padme and he was very good friends with her. With her help, Bail and along with other senators began to form a ?Rebellion? against Palpatine before the crucial events in ROTS began to take place.

Crap. Sorry folks, I know I ramble on... but yeah...I?ll save the rest for next time lol.

 

I agree. That's a good one, too. We don't want to see Luke screw up like Anakin did.

 

Many of the points raised in this thread are spot-on so I would like to add a few points.

1. The Clone Wars - Lucas' vision of the Clone Wars was much greater than I ever imagined. The Clones wearing stormtrooper like armor fighting for the Jedi instead of against? Brilliant.

2. Palpatine - the best character of the PT. His absence in episodes 4 & 5(except for short scene) is glaring. But it does explain the deviousness in his plans above Endor as well as his belief that he could bring Luke to the dark side, like Palpy did to his father.

 

In ROTJ, Obi-Wan tells Luke that his feelings for his sister "do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor. Sure, you see how close that possibility is when Luke goes crazy on Vader once he mentions Leia. But you don't really know what Obi means until you see how Palpatine manipulated Anakin's love for Padme to serve his own ends.

I also love it when Anakin tells Padme that they can rule the galaxy together. Not only does it give you insight into the type of person he is, but it's also an important parallel between Padme and Luke.

 

Stamp has definitely made the best post in here. Bravo, Stamp!

(I really liked what you put about TESB most of all. The clunkiness of the Empire and the degraded nature of Yoda! YESSSS!).

I also think that the PT has especially enhanced the beauty and charm of ROTJ -- and this, to me, is significant, since I think ROTJ was always in greatest need of improvement; if anything, Lucas has retroactively fixed ROTJ through the PT.

What do I mean here? Well, let's take some examples. EDIT: Actually, let's not. I wrote this with the intention of giving multiple examples, but I ended up subsequently saying so much about the first of my examples that it took on a life of its own. Hopefully, it will be sufficient to get my point(s) across:

The arrival on Tatooine / Jabba's palace. This peculiar vignette is made all the more welcome, in my opinion, as part of an epic six-film, and not just a smaller three-film, cycle. I've always loved the slightly disconnected vibe of this segment (it's not really disconnected tonally or visually, but it superficially feels like it is). Now it feels like even more of a chance for a viewer to catch their breath; to see, and, indeed, sense the saga drawing to its end. It was always clever to start with Threepio and Artoo traipsing to Jabba's palace together (versus them being split up when they first get to Tatooine in ANH), but this bit and everything that follows now just feels all the more ... well, natural and inevitable. On the one hand, you can go, "There are the droids that Anakin and Padme built and owned and they're going somewhere cool and specific so this must be important and can't you just feel the significance building?", but on the other, there's a kind of casualness to what's going on, or not going on: it's just two quirky robots moving along some sand and rock and knocking on a door. In short, there's something kind of ominous and fateful about seeing the droids together, yet it also feels like the film is taking all the time in the world and you wonder what the hell it's doing. To some, the latter is a weakness. They want more of the first. ACTION! EXCITEMENT! MEANING! SIGNIFICANCE! Yet all that *is* there, subtly implied in every frame. Jabba is this insular, cold-hearted, slimy, reptilian-like goon (like the Emperor), with retainers, bodyguards, mercenaries, etc. (like the Emperor), with a palace of sorts (like the Emperor), lording it up over a Skywalker, with a loved one encased in a living death (like the Emperor). So it's fun and it all rhymes up, but the sequence also goes at its own pace. In a way, then, the SW galaxy -- its random brutality, its quirkiness, its eccentricities -- are all legitimized (glorified, in a way) during the Jabba's palace sequence. That's what makes it cool. The opening reel to ROTS, the third installment of the other trilogy, is of a similar length and serial-esque crazy nature, but it's also a lot more lurid and processed, if you like. Speedier. Pacier. I like how the opening sequence to ROTJ is a kind of big "Screw You!" to that. It's like "whatever!" Because Jabba himself is like "whatever!" He thumbs his nose at the protagonists like the Emperor. But unlike the Emperor, despite his reach and influence, he's stayed put on a planet that's served him well, while the Emperor has seemingly forgotten (or almost forgotten -- the red guards = male handmaidens) where he came from. In a way, then, this sequence feels like home (which is even alluded to in dialogue as it draws to a climax). By contrast, the second Death Star is high up, cold, mechanical, lifeless, a place far more barren than even the sands of Tatooine; and as an intense conclusion, we even SEE (through the Emperor's window) a part of a major action sequence the confrontation with the Emperor is juxtaposed against (and which the Emperor is using to taunt a character who is also the audience's surrogate with). By contrast, the Jabba sequence is locked into its own place, free to be its own thing, despite supposedly having the responsibility of shouldering the last SW movie and

 

Something that ocurred to me about watching the films 1-6 the other day in relation to knowing that Vader is Luke's father before TESB:

If you've never seen the films before, you'll probably be expecting Obi-Wan to tell the truth about Vader to Luke right away; after all, Obi-Wan has never been duplicitous to anybody he cares about in the preceding films. (He squirms around the truth abit on Kamino, but it's not in a way that harms the Kaminoans in any way) So when he comes up with this nonsense about Vader murdering Anakin, it'll still be a shock to new audiences, who now know Luke is going around with this total falsehood, and the audience has no way of knowing how he'll react when he finds out the truth-which of course becomes very apparent that he's actually going to find out from the worst person imaginable at the end of TESB. The situation for a new audience will go from 'bad' given that Luke just got his ass handed to him, to "!OH NO!" when Vader asks him that oh-so-loaded question about what Obi-Wan told him about Anakin. The worst part is the utter lack of doubt in Vader's voice; he doesn't doubt for a second that Obi-Wan lied to Luke and you know perfectly well that Luke heard that as well.

If anything, Luke's storyline is actually strengthened by the prequels.