Saga How does the PT improve the OT?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon, Jan 15, 2011.

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  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Well said.

    This was in one of the threads about in which order one should watch the saga. There are still surprises for viewers who see it for the first time in 1-6 order, they are just different from the surprises that we had in viewing it in 4-6, 1-3 order. Obi-Wan's story to Luke would be one of them. I can see new audiences going, "Whuck? Wait a damn minute..."
  2. Dawud786 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2006
    star 4
    I do like the analysis some have given for how the PT compliments the OT here, particularly in how the dramatic crux of ESB isn't necessarily completely undermined but the perspective on it changed... where before the PT the OT was experienced through Luke by the audience almost as Luke and that scene in ESB was experienced by the audience as Luke experienced it. For those who haven't seen it the dramatic crux is changed, because we as the audience no longer have the shock of Vader's reveal provoked in us so we no longer identify completely with that aspect of Luke's new revelation. On viewing the films in production order when Vader tells Luke he is his father we are swept into the emotion of "NOOOOO!" as a matter of it being "OMG Vader is Luke's dad!" Now a first time viewer might actually identify with that scene and "NOOOOO!" less with the revelation that Vader is Anakin, but with the betrayal and shock that Luke feels at finding out his trusted mentor and link to his father, Obi-Wan Kenobi, out right lied to him and in some ways manipulated him to get him to begin Jedi training. So there is that.

    For a person already well in the know, that scene already needs new perspectives on Luke's emotional state and has for 30 years.

    As far as the PT answering questions about Anakin Skywalker as a Jedi, it unfortunately didn't do that so well IMO. You get glimmers of Anakin's heroism, but it's almost always tainted by and overshadowed by the darker things he does. Whether it's the slaughter of the Tuskens, or his beheading of Dooku at Palpatine's goading. Which is why I think GL has felt it necessary to really get himself involved in The Clone Wars... he realized he did not show Anakin Skywalker as a heroic Jedi and now he's taking the opportunity to do so. And, much as I like the EU's Clone Wars material... they didn't always do a very good job of making Anakin a hero and fell into the same trap as GL did with AOTC of foreshadowing his turn to Darth Vader. TCW has enhanced the OT and ROTS by showing the close friendship of Anakin and Obi-Wan and their heroic deeds in the war.

    There are ways in which the PT undercuts the OT, however. Lightsaber dueling for instance. The trade off is, of course, a matter of style rather than substance. And the substance I'm talking about isn't necessarily about the skill involved but the emotional gravitas of the duels. Every single duel in the OT carries a great deal of weight. Whether it's Vader v Kenobi II in ANH, where even 30 years ago you could feel the history there, or Luke v Vader I and Luke v Vader II. Very heavy duels. The only duel with that much gravitas in the PT is Kenobi v Vader I, and to a certain extent Yoda v Sidious. Kenobi/Jinn v Maul and Kenobi/Skywalker v Dooku I & II lack gravitas, and Yoda v Dooku was much more of a cool factor because it was Yoda fighting and the history of Yoda and Dooku as master and apprentice is less keenly felt than Kenobi and Vader in ANH. K/S v D II only has gravitas as Dooku is at Anakin's feet with blades at his throat. The rest is very boring and bland. Emotionally the PT loses out, but stylistically it blows away the OT and ends up creating a forced retcon to explain the drastic difference in style. Kenobi becomes so old he has a hard time fighting, but I find that notion to be rather weak considering how spryly I've seen 80 year old martial art masters move. I find it hard to believe that a man who isn't even yet 60 years old would have let his swordsmanship and fitness deteriorate to that extent while knowing that one day he is likely to have to leap back into action as well as train a young man to Knighthood. The same is true for Vader, he's more machine now and it's the suit and the prosthetics... well, I would think the prosthetic technology would be better than that in a world where FTL travel is par for the course. Luke is the only one with a plausible retcon of him being a novice, but then there's the matter of him being fully capable of holding his own against Vader on just a few months of training at best.

    The VFX undercut the
  3. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    The PT, unfortunately, realized the clones purely digitally and they never bothered to make a full clone suit. This results in unnaturally fluid movement for the clones, who yet look better and more disciplined than most stormtroopers. Which also necessitated a cumbersome and unconvincing retcon.



    Huh? What are you talking about?
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Complements the OT.

    The PT complimenting the OT would be something like:

    PT: OT, you are so sexy.

    OT: *blush*
  5. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    What it adds to the OT:

    Palpatines personality
    Anakin born as slave
    Chaos in the Republic and old Jedi-Order
    Anakin has control-issues

    What it damages:

    Lukes leap of faith when he helped Vader (it was precisely so awesome because it was all his own idea - now we see him as a phantom Padmé. Do not want.)
    Leias and Lukes talk about their mother. My vision of her was much more interesting than what we got
    The duels. How to explain the difference in speed and all?
    Yoda - once wise he comes across like a a pretentious idiot in the PT
  6. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    I guess it is still Luke's faith as he doesn't know Padme believed this
    Yeah tricky to let Padme live on past the PT though and not see her death onscreen
    The only duelist I have an issue with is old Kenobi seen as older Dooku is still an amazing fighter
    I spose we assume Yoda learnt from his mistakes by the time Luke drops in
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yeah, I prefer that very much and in my mind it is like that. But it is hard to overlook this particular angle when Padmé repeats the "there's still good in him"-line.

    The problem with the duels is that it makes the OT-guys look slow and weak - when they're supposed to be in their prime. If the enemy isn't strong (Vader) then the epic struggle isn't an epic struggle anymore.


    That's also my theory. Maybe he learned some humility. Still, the difference is quite extreme.
  8. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    "The problem" rears its ugly head again! Don't worry, you're not alone.

    But let's play by your rules. Vader isn't strong because he's no longer the impressive swordsman he once was. But he influences people with his mere presence. He reads minds. He chokes people from across the galaxy without lifting a finger. Maybe a strong enemy wasn't "the problem" what you were looking for.
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    If he isn't a top swordsman, how comes he wasn't killed by some rogue Jedi a long time ago? They would certainly like to take him out (which forces Sidious to take a new Padawan and train him - and even then he might not be as useful as Vader). So there's that from the logic department.

    From the sentimentality department the OT-duels always felt like the best of the best fighting with excalibur. Special because no one else can do this. It adds scope. I don't want to think there's probably a order 66 surviver sitting around somewhere who is a better swordsfighter who could beat Obi-Wan, Luke and Vader.
  10. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    It doesn't.

    If anything, the PT has been a cancer to the OT.
  11. DarthWolvo23 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Interesting point of view for someone with your choice of avatar diplaying Hayden's Vaderkin
  12. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    The logic department. "Shut him up or shut him down." An endless stream of "how comes". WHY couldn't the Emperor sense Yoda or Obi-Wan's presence? WHY does Leia allow Han to take her to Yavin Four if she knows they're being tracked? WHY doesn't Greedo just shoot Han when he has the chance? WHY doesn't Luke just show up with a lightsaber and start hacking away inside Jabba's Palace?

    "There is no why.... Clear your mind of questions."

    Another word for logic is reason, and another word for reason is excuse. You can use your logic department to ask questions and make sense of the information available to you (find the excuses where there they already exist), or you can dream up any excuse you like with your imagination.

    Funny thing though, rogue Jedi don't really exist in any of the movies. You made it up. You brought a "what if" to a game of "how come". Hows that for logic?

    So if you don't want to think there are Order 66 survivors out there stealing Luke's uniqueness, then don't. The films don't imply such things.
  13. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That nobody survived seems like a stretch to me and I have problems accepting it. Otherwise I would've a long time ago.
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief
  14. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    That seems improbable. I don't believe you.;)
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    .) The way order 66 was executed makes it very probable that a few Jedi survived
    .) Obi-Wan will probably hone his skills to protect Luke and he was an exceptional Jedi-Master
    .) Cybernetic replacements in a high-tech environment like the Star Wars galaxy are probably of very good quality
    .) Vader will train with greater disciplin than Anakin ever did, having seen how devastating failure can be
    .) There are probably other untrained force-users besides Luke. But they chose Luke because he has exceptional talent

    You can give me explanations/excuses/counterarguments, but each and everyone of them will require a leap of fate from me. It's easier for me to explain the difference with the out of universe explanation "different technology used when shooting the movies".
  16. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    I see your petulant whining of the PT and raise you a :rolleyes:
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Well, not quite. From across a pretty large ship, perhaps. But it's still impressive.
  18. Jedirockstar1138 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 1
    if anything the PT gives a better understanding of Vader, especially in Return of the Jedi when Luke and Vader discuss the man once known as Anakin. It fills in the bigger picture.
  19. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Here are my two cents:

    Agreed.

    Not really. Obi-Wan doesn't want to arouse suspicion. Protect Luke? Obi-Wan says he will "watch over" Luke, implying some kind of protection or stewardship; but as more of a subtle, guiding-hand kind of thing. Luke is with the Lars. Obi-Wan wouldn't have placed him there if he and Yoda didn't think it would allow Luke to remain reasonably safe in the first place. Plus, Obi-Wan's philosophy expands to include lines like, "There are alternatives to fighting".

    Not necessarily. And the highest-quality parts are probably out-of-reach of most denizens, especially war-wounded, banished (and hunted) Jedi looking to lay low. Unless you're talking about Vader. There could be a million reasons he has his suit and not something "better".

    Well, there's truth in that.

    Right. So... case closed.

    Sure. Whatever wets your whistle.
  20. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I don't have a problem with Hayden.

    I have a problem with the terrible scripts and pedestrian directing of that realy silly fat man.
  21. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I just love Lucas apologists. They're always good for a [face_laugh].
  22. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I'll never be able to wrap my head around signatures such as yours, Melancholy. You're essentially accusing an artist of destroying his own creation, as if Star Wars were itself a demiurge, which happened to bond with a host-body.

    Did Sir Arthur Conan Doyle receive letters in a similar vein?

    "My good Sir, I must say I found your latest yarn rather banal and uninspired! It is as if you had buggered my boyhood! I demand that you leave our dear Sherlock be, and hand any prospective adventures over to the keen mind of Gareth Kurtz!"
  23. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
  24. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    That would be the "I am a total victim of Palpatine and I want to punish myself because I do evil"-Vader. I don't like that guy. ;)
  25. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    Well, the Vader suit and mask is like a sarcophagus: literally, "flesh-eater" ("The boy you trained, gone he is; consumed by Darth Vader"). Anakin is also in a kind of purgatory as Darth Vader. It makes perfect poetic sense, to me, that he retains the suit as a kind of penitence for his crimes, despite his outward posturing and threats. Darth Vader is a being rife with contradiction. "We can bring order to this destructive conflict!" ... "There is no conflict!" Poor Darth.
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