Saga How does the PT improve the OT?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon, Jan 15, 2011.

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  1. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Dawud: You might find the writings of Chris Hedges (NOT Christopher Hitchens) interesting. He's a leftist war correspondent, and has expended much effort in denouncing both fundamentalism and the so-called New Atheist movement. If there aren't any of his books at your local library, check out his articles online. An impressive man.

    There's a quote of his that sends chills down my spine: ?We have nothing to fear from those who do or do not believe in God; we have much to fear from those who do not believe in sin.?
  2. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Firstly, a correction:

    The article does actually say that the prequel trilogy is literally the work of Satan at the outset; by the time I had reached the end of the author's blather, I must have forgotten that. But that only underscores everything else I said: such ridiculously hyperbolic distinctions and judgments are indistinguishable from the totalitarian impulse and accompanying political propaganda history has shown us to be incredibly destructive/effective (at least, in the short term), just in 20th Century Eurasia alone.

    What's even stranger in a way -- or, at the least, revealing -- is that the author claims "The Phantom Menace" is full of "arrogant actors who publicly ridicule the real message and the real fans" (he also places emphasis on "real" in both instances), but I don't see a disparity in the general countenance of the actors themselves between the two trilogies (in the main, they seem happy or lukewarm with their actual involvement, and rather befuddled by and slightly dismissive of the art itself). With a handful of exceptions, none of the actors have ever struck me as particularly arrogant, either. Just reads, to me, as insane projection from the author; but then, given what he propounds, it's not surprising.

    At root level, the characters with faith in the Force tend to tap into it and conceive of it as an energy field (even where the dialectic between "Living" and "Cosmic" comes into play). Like anything, we can, of course, debate individual character attitudes and subtle variances; and what the Force actually is or might be (both within Star Wars and without). But it seems -- on some level -- to stand in marked contrast to the opposing "personalities" or "entities" often described in Abrahamic mythology. Hence my earlier distillation: the Force is just "an energy field".

    I might be "ill-equipped", but what I've said, in general, holds. And when you say "egalitarian by modern standards", I assume you mean the "modern standards" currently seen in countries like Iran and Afghanistan (and in recent times elsewhere: e.g., Mediaeval Europe), not the "modern standards" within the democratic, secular societies of today. The West is indebted to the Middle East and its more tolerant, academic past on a number of levels, but the West has -- in the main -- advanced beyond the Middle East at even the height of its tolerance; unless you think barring non-Muslims from the highest professions, levying additional taxes/propitiations against non-Muslims, forcing non-Muslims to hold their heads low in the street when walking past Muslims, social inequality for women (Muslim and non-Muslim), a general intolerance of sexual expression and pornography, and, often, an abject hatred and killing of apostates, atheists, and those with non-Abrahamic beliefs, comes anywhere nea
  3. HanSandwich Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2011
    -When Obiwan first unveils himself to Luke in Episode IV with that mystical music playing in the backround, and it sinks in for the viewer that it has been 20 years since Episode III.

    -As Obiwan looks over the clone factory in Episode II and the Imperial March begins playing, it makes you think that is the birth of the Empire!

    -Seeing Palpatine as a Senator in Episode I gives him a full arc for that evil man in Episode VI.

    -Seeing the Jedi Council and Yoda ruling it in Episode I gives you a context as to what Kenobi and Yoda must have done to stay hidden for 20+ years!

  4. Obi-WanLikeaBoss Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2011
    The PT sets up the OT. It shows us how the Jedi order used to be, shows Obi-Wan Kenobi in his prime, and explores the relationship with him and Anakin. It makes the OT more meaningful, knowing the background story of Anakin/Darth Vader and helps us understand him more. It is a different feel the OT but I think it compliments it well.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Technically, the Imperial March doesn't play until the end of the film. The piece that plays while Obi-Wan looks at the clones on Kamino is different.
  6. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    it enriches the story in almost every way imo, without the PT as a base the OT just feels like are characters are just lost in space.
  7. Fat_Rancor_Keeper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2010
    star 3
    Well for me I see a human face behind Vader's mask now. Even in ANH & ESB when Vader is strictly evil. I know for some fans that's not a good thing, but I don't mind it.

    I also like that when the past is discussed I can actually picture moments from the PT.
  8. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Perhaps "improve" is the wrong word here - after all, the OT worked fine on its won before the prequels came about. But I do think it that OT (and saga on the whole) is enhanced and given new meaning. The most important change for me personally was in how I look at Vader/Luke/Palpatine scenes in ROTJ. Before the PT (and especially ROTS), the Emperor was a bit of a letdown. He has these awesome powers and he's obviously quite devious, and yet he thinks he can convert this brave young man he's never met or that he can fry him to death with the daddy actually standing nearby? Yeah, he's obviously arrogant and all that, but it never quite clicked for me. However, after witnessing his rise to power and getting rid of his enemies through successful manipulations of everyone around them (including the Jedi), I have more respect for me and it's also easier for me to believe that after his previous success and twenty years of near absolute power he can grow very arrogant and becomes as blind as Jedi are to his surroundings. Just like the Jedi powers have been diminished by Sith presence, so is Palpatine in the dark by Luke's appearance.

    In addition to that, the whole scene is like a macabre family reunion, with Palps being a dark father figure to Anakin/Vader (or even more than that, if we believe his insinuations in the Opera scene). Vader having to choose between his "father" and his son infuses the scene with even more tension that it already has. Padme's ghost is also felt here: if Vader has lived all these years believing that he caused her death, his sacrifice to save his and Padme's son is more believable.
  9. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I disagree with that. The OT works with or without the PT. Although I'm a fan of the prequels, I would hardly say they are required to find deep meaning in the OT. The OT's characters are deep anyway, the mythical aspect of the movies is strong, and there is a smooth flow from movie to movie, for example Luke's character arc. They are definitely stand-alone movies in their own right.

    How it does improve the OT though... the first thing I think of off the top of my head is Darth Vader in ESB. His search for Luke, and determination to eradicate the Rebels just has more impact after seeing his turn in Ep3. With the Rebels he's still trying to "secure" the galaxy. With Luke however, the Anakin/Vader character arc is just deeper than it would be without the prequels. His attachment to Luke, the only link to his past, is far more understandable. In opposite slides, from good to bad and back, there is symmetry between a connection to Padme (and Shmi) sparking the beginning of his downslide, and his connection to Luke sparking the beginning of his return. Interestingly, both "middle-movie" (AOTC and ESB) sparks are only a minor change at first.

    When Vader states more than once "You don't know the power of the dark side" we have been clearly shown what he is referring to. The subserviant line "I must obey my Master" makes sense after seeing Sidious rescue Vader from the sandbank after his immolation.

    Perhaps this next point is coincidental, but you can find new meaning in this ROTJ dialogue-
    LUKE:
    Master Yoda, you can't die.
    YODA:
    Strong am I with the force, but not that strong.

    After the prequels this line could easily be a reference to the Sith's rumoured ability to cheat death.

    Another thing that IMO is improved on by the PT, is a little of the philosophy of the Jedi and the Sith. Qui-Gon's dialogue in TPM, and Sidious' dialogue throughout all three, particularly ROTS. Seeing the Jedi in their prime (mostly in TPM personally) makes Luke's transition to Jedi more satisfying.

    One last point off the top of my head is a better understanding of the dark side. Anakin's pledge scene, where he sells his soul to Sidious, gives a more mystical vibe to the dark side for me. Seeing Luke struggling with his lightside/darkside conflict is enhanced by the nature of Anakin's fall.

    Oh yeah, and the issue of the force going out of balance. There are a lot of parallels apparent that seem to mark turning points and significant shifts throughout the saga. Subjectively, you could say that the Jedi needed to adapt, which is why they were wiped out, so seeing a wiser Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT is another very prequel enhanced area. Luke ends up a lot like Qui-Gon and the OT Jedi.
  10. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Something else just came to me. Vader's reaction to Luke dropping away after the Bespin duel. He looks more cut now [face_laugh]. Similarly when the Millenium Falcon finally goes to lightspeed. Classic moments, and enhanced by the PT IMO.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    After seeing Obi-Wan and Anakin escape by cutting a hole in the floor in a ROTS deleted scene, it makes me wonder what Anakin/Vader is thinking when he's stepping on Obi-Wan's empty cloak on the Death Star.

    He's probably considering the possibility that Obi-Wan pulled a fast one.
  12. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    For me it makes the story broader. All 6 have the ability to make the other 5 better films. Padme & Shmi made the Vader vs Palpatine scene on Deathstar with Luke a way more dramatic scene. When Anakin/Vader is going back and forth between Luke & Palpatine you cant help but think of Shmi & Padme and he finally had the ability to stop someone he cared for from dying. He was 0 for 2 up until that point.
  13. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    This is a really good post.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    The PT answered all those questions for me. I was somewhat surprised by the answers but I was never disappointed. OK, I was disappointed with one thing: Anakin's gullibility in the face of Palpatine's manipulations. And their complete stubbornness in not allowing him contact with his mother. I could actually deal with their rule against marriage, but rules that keep parents away from their children border on insane to me.


    Lucas had based the Jedi Order on certain religious orders in other parts of the world. Whether or not he agrees with their mandates is another matter. As for Anakin's gullibility, why are you surprised, considering that AOTC established that he was willing to do anything to save his mother? It's not surprising that he resort the same kind of thinking if he thought Padme's life was in danger. Look at the actions that the Jedi Council took to maintain the Order. In their own way, they were just as gulllible and destructive.
  15. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Ewan did a really good job playing a younger version of Alec...its a shame older fans dont show the love.
  16. obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 3
    PeittsHat, you stated that you grew up on the pt? If that is the case, very nice assessment. I'd like to point out to Merlin Ambrosius, while I share your take on the father/son theme, that in the 80s Star Wars was the thing. There was a lot of outside influence as to why people saw things the way we did. There was a jolly ol nice humbled looking Anakin figure, and talks of the backstory(pt) even back then. This can warp the perceptions around what works and what does not. I still think the OT works just fine, but I find PiettsHats take on it very interest.

    If you look at the OT without any outside influence/backstory. Vader kills a bunch of people in ANH, including Lukes mentor. In Empire, Vader Kills a bunch of people, and out of nowhere we find out he is Lukes father. Then in Jedi, Luke is out to save him. If you go by what is actually ON SCREEN, PHs post becomes even more credible/interesting. PH: It was nice reading that.
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