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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga How feminist is the Star Wars galaxy?—SEE WARNING ON FIRST PAGE

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by StartCenterEnd, May 15, 2018.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    “Fighting white supremacy” isn’t a political message, it’s a moral one. A political message would imply that there is a legitimate alternative side, that “pro-white-supremacy” deserves serious consideration as a moral opinion.

    Yes, Rogue One is set up to indicate that the Rebel Alliance, including Jyn and her squadron, were on the correct side. The OT is set up the same way.
     
  2. BadCane

    BadCane Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2015
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Benster7703

    Benster7703 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Not trying to be politically correct, just scientifically accurate.
     
  4. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Thats complete BS. Do you even know what makes a good solider? "Higher reaction" time may be an appropriate characteristic for Han Solo who shot first, but shooting first is not the most desirable trait for a solider.

    I have been in combat, and most people who have never experienced it have no idea. I have served with plenty of great women soldiers who I would trust with my life far more than some guys who merely have a quick trigger finger.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  5. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    That was Lucas' idea.
    There was always politics in star wars.

    What I mean is the feminist agenda, or any social justice stuff that haters keep going on about.
    That's not a thing.

    As for female fighters, shooting blasters & flying starships shouldn't be more of an issue for women than men.
    Even less of a problem when it comes to the Force. There's no difference I can see in male & female Jedi abilities.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  6. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2006
    @BadCane great flick.

    @Benster7703 I think the only overarching message of the lack of other female characters in the OT is realizing that sometimes movies are very much a product of the times they were made in or that art sometimes imitates life. The 70s and 80s were just not periods where you saw women in fighting/combat roles. The only examples I can think of off hand are Sarah Connor an Ripley and Vazquez from Alien/Aliens; and holy **** it was a Spanish female in Vazquez. I hate to think if the internet were a thing then what would have been said. The fact that Vazquez was played by a white woman is a whole other discussion.

    My point is GL pushed it with Leia because in those days you just didn't see a female character in that type of role. It doesn't excuse it, it just explains it.

    To the issue of women's capabilities in combat, Israel has been proving this wrong for decades and even the US of late. Women receiving combat valor awards for ground actions, bad-ass women pilots and women now entering into regular combat roles, passing Ranger school, etc. The "science" done in a controlled setting with no data from actual combat experience and in fact excluding data sets (i.e. Israel) cannot be accurately applied to this specific category. It's easy to say a group of people are unsuited for a specific task when you don't allow them to prove you wrong. We've been taught this lesson over and over as applied to non white men/women. When the barriers to entry were removed non-white men/women have excelled.
     
  7. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    My stepfather said the only problem sometimes was when it came to lifting. But women could still do it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  8. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Russia had a female pilot force during WW2, the Night Witches.

    So it's not like women in combat is a new thing.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    @firesaber : Lucas did push the boundaries with Leia, and took heat for doing so.
     
  10. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Completely agree. I think she is why we got the female characters that we did later. GL had the sack to put it out there that not every "damsel" was in distress or needed to be in distress.
     
  11. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Jabba is male though, how do we know a female Hutt like Gardulla doesn't treat males the same way?

    As for no women in the Empire, I think it makes more sense to make them more evil by excluding aliens & women but even the Nazis didn't totally exclude women.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  12. Ava G.

    Ava G. Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2016
    The problem with that for me is that it isn't interesting. We have women in the military now, as you've discussed, so it wouldn't even be a commentary* on anything. Unless people in a more misogynistic country watch it.

    And those in the more misogynistic countries can then be able to see good and evil women in authority roles, and reflect on the state of their own culture without the boring villain sexism.

    * As in: "even the highly organized and advanced Empire can still hate women, 'cuz they're so evil and stupid, see. We shouldn't fall in the same trap!"
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
  13. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Russia also had a Woman Sniper who had over 300 kills.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko
     
  14. Benster7703

    Benster7703 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    That’s cool and all, but there’s a reason why women where only allowed to become frontline soldiers in recent years. Physical equality DOES NOT equal gender equality. The only people who are still caught up about men being better fighters and survivors than women and people who probably sexiest themselves. All I’m asking is to keep race and gender politics out of Star Wars. When sexism is portrayed in Star Wars, it is usually portrayed as a bad thing, the Nightsister’s sexism is a bad thing, the Legends Empire’s sexism is a bad thing. Feminism will not produce the strong female characters that have already existed in Star Wars for years. It will only result in hollow shells that will quickly become irrelevant as third wave feminism gives way to true gender equality.


    (Edit) Also to respond to that post about the female sniper who had over 300 kills, women have better eyesight than men, so it makes sense that women would be good snipers. That’s a scientific fact, I never denied that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The reason women were only allowed to become frontline soldiers in recent years is due to sexism in society, not any legitimate scientific reason.

    And yes, people who subscribe to the asinine notion that “men are better fighters and survivors than women” certainly are sexist themselves.

    As far as keeping racial and gender politics out of Star Wars—that is a political stance in and of itself. The idea that (white) men are the default heroes, and making a woman or a POC in a role traditionally held by white men is “playing politics”, is playing politics.

    And third wave feminism isn’t going away until true gender equality is achieved, because that is exactly what third wave feminism fights for. Since I actually am a third-wave feminist, I know this.

    Feminism produced Leia; that’s why Lucas was given so much crap about not making her more sweet and demure.

    And LOL, no , women do not “have better eyesight than men,” if we did, none of us would wear corrective lenses and all the men would.
     
  16. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    "Guys! Men are just better soldiers than women!

    (Except for the skills they have that would make them desirable soldiers but I never denied that so why is everyone attacking me about this?)"
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2018
  17. StartCenterEnd

    StartCenterEnd Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 2, 2006
    I think another problem is many people think “feminism” means female domination. Female domination is actually more of a male sexual fantasy fetish/kink than anything. It’s not real. We aren’t even close to matriarchy. Most women still take their husbands last names, are paid less for same work and having strong women in movies is somehow making a statement while strong men in movies is just the way it “ought” to be. Can’t you see the sexism at play here?
     
  18. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Strong women have been in movies & TV for decades, it's pretty well accepted if it's well done.
    Buffy is great, Ripley & Sarah Connor didn't stop people watching Terminator or Aliens, Lara Croft & Samus Arun didn't stop men playing their games, Hunger Games was very popular.

    The problem is when there is dramatic change in a show or movie to be more inclusive rather than because it's good for the show.
    I'd rather see new interesting POC & female characters in new stuff rather than taking established franchises and just lszily shoving someone into it just so the creators can high five each other & say how progressive they are.
    Look at Ghostbusters or Oceans 8.

    Star Wars has new interesting progressive characters & on the whole the new movies have been well done.
    The Superhero movies are also leading the charge, see how well Wonder Woman did & it was actually good unlike other recent DC movies. Captain Marvel is going to be a big deal & probably the most powerful MCU character.

    There needs to be more of that.
    Which there will be, because it sells as long as it's good.
    Lucasfilm should be a leader in pushing that, just as it was in the 70s
     
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Films/TV shows that are blatantly obvious in their efforts to show how feminist they are, often come off to me like a parody of feminism rather than an actual portrayal of it, so the writers/producers trying to be more inclusive end up metaphorically shooting themselves in the foot.

    I include any storyline that reads as “Look at how strong this woman is and how weak/stupid this man is! Look! FEMINISM” under that category—because feminism is not “men are stupid and need women to boss them around or fix them.” Again...I say this as a card-carrying NOW member.

    Feminism is about the fact that women can and should fit into the societal roles where men have always been the default—and vice versa. Women can work in STEM fields and be in the military—and should if they so choose. Men can be teachers, nurses, or stay-at-home dads—and should if they so choose.

    Making Poe and Finn look stupid is not feminist. But...Rey’s portrayal isn’t feminist either.
     
  20. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    I don't think the movement is helped by a lot of ridiculous feminists on social media, who simply come across as man-hating & get offended at every headline without looking into it further.
    There's no sensible discussion without being shouted down or having "sexist" & "mansplaining" thrown at you so as to kill any argument.

    I've seen discussion on these forums that amounts to -
    "if you don't like Finn you're racist"
    "If you don't think Rey is the best character you're sexist"
    "You criticise KK's running of Lucasfilm because you're sexist"
    And various other attempts to shut down conversation.

    Poe is anti-authority to everyone, I'm sure he'd have behaved the same way towards Akbar that he did towards Holding if Akbar had behaved as Holdo did.
    It's nothing to do with him telling women they're wrong, he's just arrogant.

    People read way more into scenes than they need to sometimes
     
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I do love using “mansplaining” in reference to men telling me what feminists think. [face_laugh] (Not directed at you Richie.) That’s what mansplaining is—a man telling a woman that he is more knowledgeable than she is on a subject despite her being an expert on the subject—the best example is probably a male bricklayer telling a woman mechanic how to fix her car.

    I agree with you for the most part; it undermines the cause of feminism when no one can criticize a woman at all without being accused of being sexist.

    Using the character of Rey as an example, I would ask the critics: Would your criticisms apply if she were named Ray? And to her defenders: Would you defend her in the same manner if she were named Ray?

    More on topic, I would say the GFFA is about as feminist as Earth’s more progressive societies.
     
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  22. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    It is strange how many people go on about how Rey is some Mary Sue because she can do everything but overlook the fact Anakin was the same.

    OK he was Space Jesus, but still
     
  23. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Gotta love it when people mistake tokenism for equality.
     
    La Calavera and crazyewok like this.
  24. Benster7703

    Benster7703 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Nope - this thread is not for attacking feminists or feminism.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2018
  25. Benster7703

    Benster7703 Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    This whole “mansplaning” issue is one of the double standards I have been talking about. I’m not denying it’s existence based on the definition you have provided. But what about “womensplaing.” Is it acceptable for men to call women out for ignorance, or would that be sexist.