How good is a Sony TRV25 for a FanFilm?

Ok, I am starting to get going and need a bit of advice.I have been doing some F/X test with different Demos, and my copy of After Effects. Now I need a digital video camera.

One of the only ones that is in my price range and seems to be of good quality is the TRV25 or TRV27. But I would like an outside opinion first. Namely from the members of this board .So how good is the TRV25, recommendable or what?

 

I've been playing with my TRV25 quite a bit. I'm very happy with it. Lots of features and crystal clear video. I'm very happy! I've done a lightsaber shot and some other general shooting and was able to get everything to look great. Highly recommended.
The only difference with the 27 is the size of the LCD, which I didn't think made any real difference.

 

Well, I have the Sony DCR-TRV18, and the only significant difference between the three is optical zoom power and still image resolution... if I remember correctly (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here...).

The TRV18 works really well... and as for the still image resolution... Quite frankly, this feature is about as useful as picture-in-picture... you pay a lot, but in the end, it's better to use a separate digital or 35mm film camera for stills. There isn't a single camcorder on the market that has a decent still image resolution, so don't ever factor it into your purchase.

The 18, the 25 and the 27 all have the same optics... Carl-Zeiss Vario Sonnar... with essentially the same Single-CCD HAD sensor. .. so the image quality differs very little between them. It's the bells and whistles that make up the over $100 price spread between the 18 and the 27.

If you can get a decent deal on the 27, get it... if not, and your budget is tight... get the 25, you won't miss the 27.

For fanfilms, especially with visual FX... you'll gain almost zero advantage with any sub-$2000 camera... because you have to pretty much spend upwards of $2 grand to get a 3-CCD camera. That's where the first noticeable differences start coming in.

Beyond that, the next biggest advantage in image resolution for FX-intensive work is acquired by moving up from a 4:1:1 color space format like MiniDV, DVCAM and DVCPro to 4:2:2 color space formats like Digital Betacam, D1, D5, D9... but then you're talking cameras that start around $8000.

If it's a choice between the 25 and 27... well, I picked the 18, obviously... and the 25 and 27 were already out.

 

"For fanfilms, especially with visual FX... you'll gain almost zero advantage with any sub-$2000 camera... because you have to pretty much spend upwards of $2 grand to get a 3-CCD camera. That's where the first noticeable differences start coming in."

What do you mean by this? Im not quite following what your saying.

 

Well, basically the issue is this... MiniDV, DVCAM and DVCPro all use the same chrominance to luminance subsampling (think of this as the inherent compression of the medium itself, not your computer's capture settings)...

In 4:1:1 systems, the chrominance/color data (R-Y, B-Y) are sampled at roughly 1/4 the sampling frequency of the luminance data (Y). For every four samples of Y, there is one sample of R-Y and one sample of B-Y.

In 4:2:2 systems, the chrominance data are sampled at 1/2 the sampling frequency of the luminance data. For every four samples of Y, there are two samples of R-Y and two samples of B-Y.

As a result, the difference in image clarity is pretty noticeable.

Because effects involving chrominance channels, such as chroma key (i.e. "blue-screen" and "green-screen") are pretty prevalent in fan films, MiniDV, DVCAM and DVCPro are all going to produce results inferior to Digital Beta, D1 and D5.

However, if you were to say, choose, say, a $1200 single-CCD Sony MiniDV camera (e.g. the PC120) over a $800 single-CCD Sony MiniDV camera (e.g. the TRV27), it would give you no fundamental advantage in terms of digital composites.

On the other hand, if you went and spent $3000-4000 on a Canon XL-1s, you'd somewhat make up for the 4:1:1 subsampling inaccuracy by having 3 CCD imaging sensors instead of one.

Even so, a D1 or Digibeta camera will go even further by having 3 CCDs and 4:2:2 color space...

What I'm essentially saying is... if the choice you have, budget wise, is between a TRV25, and a TRV27... it makes no fundamental difference in image clarity. Only the bells and whistles... such as zoom depth, built-in effects, etc.

 

OOOOOOOkkkkkkkkkk.

I had to read that a few times but basically what you are saying is the a camera with 3 CCD is easier to key and work with then a 1 CCD camera. But a 1 CCD camera would just be diffcult not impossible right?

And as far as MiniDV, DVCam vs Digtal Beta, D1 for keying, wasnt Broken Alleginace shot in DVCam format and ended up looking pretty good with a few steps.

Or have I totally misread what you are saying. No offence but my knowledge of cameras and their workings is limited. I can do compositing, special effects and 3d Modeling but when it comes to cameras I am, well kinda stupid. Thanks for the help, a small light bulb is starting to turn on in my head and I am begining to understand.

 

Basically, that's the deal. I'm in the process of building the multimedia section of my website, and I'll put samples of composites done with the DCR-TRV18.

The TRV18, 25, 27 all are single-CCD... on top of that, MiniDV, DVCAM and DVCPro are all 4:1:1 color space. If your choice is between single-CCD cameras, the difference in chroma key quality is statistically insignificant.

If your choice is between 3-CCD and 1-CCD 4:1:1 cameras, the difference in chroma key quality is marginal... but not as great as with 4:2:2 cameras. The big advantage with 3-CCD MiniDV seems to be better color resolution in low light... luminance values are strong because each pixel is represented by 3 luminance samples instead of one... but the ratio of luminance to chrominance for each CCD is still 4:1:1.

 

Thanks for the info! I'm currently saving up for the TRV27...

-saber holder

 

Thanks for all the help Darth_SnowDog. When you get those composites up let me know, I would like to see them.I have pretty much decided on the TRV25 or 27 and I am assuming the low light problems can be fixed with better lighting of the set right? Thanks for the help this is really coming in handy.

 

Saber - I have the TRV-27, and am very happy with it. I didn't buy it in the beginning with the thought of making much more than home movies and whatnot, but it's a pretty good camera, as far as 1 CCD cameras go.

 

I have the 25 and I would reccommend it. The size of the LCD is big enough. If that's the only difference between the 25 and the 27, go with the 25.

Bob

 

^The 25 it is . A TRV25 sells at about a grand where I live(canada). But eBay usually has some good deals so Ill also look there.

Thanks for the help all now all I need to know is how to get the MiniDV footage ready to key since MiniDV and DVCam are supposed to be compressed quite high making it kinda hard to key. The BA team experienced the same thing and I, personally would like to know how to deal with it.