PT How have people who troll the prequels affected your love of the movies?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by OBI WAN37, Jul 1, 2014.

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  1. Jair Crawford Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    Totally agree. Like, for instance, when someone says "The Phantom Menace was the absolute worst movie in the entire existance of all time!", which I have heard people say, more than once... I look at them like they're crazy. Cause there're a LOT of movies they haven't seen, if they're making statements like that. lol
  2. Big_Benn_Klingon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2013
    star 1
    There are fewer things sadder in SW fandom than seeing a PT-gen fan retroactively hating the PT that he/she greatly enjoyed when they were younger. Ive seen a few like this online and it's very unfortunate that somebody would feel the need to reject their own childhood.

    For me, I think the PT trolling has made me enjoy those movies even more, as it has led me to analyze them more deeply than I otherwise would. BUT it has had the unfortunate effect of tarnishing the OT for me - unnecessarily. I grew up on the OT and never really had any reason to explore their flaws (altho I was aware of them) until they were flung in my face as the epitome of cinematic greatness by anti-PT trolls. It's hard not to point out the OT's weaknesses when you are faced with such hypocritical arguments.

    I think this is the most powerful impact of anti-PT trolling. Unfortunately, trolling actually does impact the choices Hollywood makes nowadays. I mean it's great for us all to say "don't let other people's hate change your enjoyment", but when trolling actually influences what is being produced, then it becomes a bit more difficult to remain unaffected.
    Last edited by Big_Benn_Klingon, Jul 11, 2014
  3. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Maybe they find that the PT doesn't hold up as much as when they first watched it? A complete about face is insane but I can see a mellowing of enthusiasm of something happening the older you get.
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  4. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    star 4
    I'm very much like that with ROTJ. At ten, it was by far my favourite of the OT films. Now it's a fairly distant third. I still like it, and elements of it I still love, but these days different things appeal to me. It's just a case of changing taste over time and with age.
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  5. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I went from absolute hate of TPM to a big PT fan, so it isn't a case of it "not holding up" to first impressions. But TPM doesn't equal the PT, nor does AoTC.
    And I was an original OT-era fan (and still am a fan).
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  6. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Well, I think there is a clear difference between a changing focus/opinion and a 360 degree turnaround from "love" to "hate". You can clearly see the difference. Whether it's a balanced and thought-out explanation for their changed evaluation of the films or a stereotypical, one-sided parroting und unsubstantial bashing. Sorry, when you tell me you loved them as a child and now hate them passionaltely (and that becomes obvious in your language), then I can say either speculate you've been replaced by a doppelgänger or can't take you seriously.

    For instance, when someone enjoyed Jar Jar as a child and now doesn't love him as much because he's simply more interested in more "mature" characters, that's is only natural. However, when someone then moves on Jar Jar claiming was "the worst character ever" and holds absolutely "no" redeeming qualities, he's just contradicting himself. Same with statements about the acting: Surely, when you're younger you're less sensitive about such things. Yet, when someone then only starts claiming the PT's acting was nonstop "terrible" while the OT's nonstop "great", then it's just he opposite of a more adult view. An adult's view triumphs over a child's view simply with a more nuanced ability of being able to see things differentiated. Again, people who changed their opinion and then moved on saying things like that just contradict themselves and offer disproof of their "point".

    So yeah, things change. Although, it's also obvious when change is a product of perceived semi-cultural pressure - artificial and forced.
    Last edited by Samnz, Jul 12, 2014
  7. Sariel2005 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 1
    That's not necessarily true, peoples views do change as they age. Hell I thought Star Trek 5 was a great movie when I first saw it as a teen. Sometimes with more wisdom and experience we revisit something from our childhood and find that it is not what we thought, its childish, or the message is flawed or the characters are shallow, whatever ( and I am not talking about Star Wars in particular here, FWIW I find Jar Jar a relatively interesting character, and my more mature self likes him more since although he is annoying he is brave, thoughtful and an innocent. Everything the Republic should fight to protect).
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  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I thought Jar-Jar was really annoying at age 27 and he doesn't bother me at age 42.

    As far as "trolling" affecting what is being produced, it makes sense that Hollywood would veer from producing more films along the lines of those which have gotten negative reactions.

    But in order for Hollywood to successfully do this, it has to know what to do differently. Which means that Internet posts along the lines of "The PT sucks and anyone who likes it is a tasteless moron" is not going to be productive in getting Hollywood to produce different material, but "Anakin should not have been a Space Messiah" might be.

    The latter is a legitimate criticism, the former is trolling. So posts that are actually "trolling" are not likely to affect Hollywood behavior.
  9. Sariel2005 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 1
    Hollywood likes money, simple as that. So at the end of the day, Jar Jar is fine what makes money works. ( that said Hollywood had little to do with how Lucas made his movies anyway) As to Disney, well same thing. No we will not see a Jar Jar movie but they will go for what they think sells. This is why I doubt that Daisy Whatshername will be the main protagonist or a jedi, Hollywood is reluctant to have a female protagonist generally. Point is its the bottom line thats important, thats why five gets you ten there will be a Boba Fett movie.
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I agree; my point was that Hollywood/Disney/etc. needs to do some guesswork as far as what fans want to see or pay for.
  11. Darth Eddie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2013
    star 3
    The OP mentioned the example of a fan who'd be 8 when TPM came out and is now 23 - well I am that fan to the T. In my teen years I tried to bandwagon onto the who prequel sucks train for whatever reason, you know how young people regurgitate others' opinions sometimes. But I never truly felt that way, I'd just make fun of the movies to fit in to what seemed to be the popular idea at the time. Of course I'm more grown up now, and I guess I'm what you'd call a saga fan. I love 'em all.

    I do have a few prequel hater friends, and we have some running gags. If someone talks some smack about Jar Jar, I'm liable to say something like "Do you want to get shot right now?" - all in good fun of course.
  12. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Hedging your bets there, aren't you?

    Hollywood is a commercially-driven enterprise. That means conservatism rules. It is just as likely -- if not a great deal more likely -- to exploit widespread satisfaction with the PT as a whole, than to focus on microscopic complaints or points of minor aesthetic contention.

    Plus, as far as your cherry-picked ("Space Messiah") example goes, Hollywood has proven rather adept at re-using that trope over and over, in various forms, over the last ten-to-twenty years. Big business has not, does not, and will never care for trifling, parochial objections. I think you're looking at this from the perspective of a disgruntled fan, not a Hollywood bean-counter or bean-counter-pleasing producer or director.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I am not and never have been in the film industry so no, I can't look at it from the perspective of a "Hollywood bean counter."

    My point is that a screenplay writer can't really work with "the PT sucks" without knowing precisely what people thought "sucked."
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  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    It's possible. I've experienced this with other SW movies. ROTJ was my favorite SW movie when I was a kid. However, my opinion of the film has changed over the years . . . to the point that it's now my least favorite movie. I've also noticed that although I was able to spot the flaws in the PT movies from the moment I first saw them, I began noticing the flaws in the OT upon recent viewings. Even my views on both TPM and ANH had changed in the past two or three years. Whereas I used to view ANH as more favorable to me than TPM in the past; I now view TPM more favorable than ANH. Who knows how my views will change in the future?


    The Hollywood industry has been re-using tropes over and over again since the beginning of its existence. Novels, plays and other entertainment forms are guilty of the same.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jul 14, 2014
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  15. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    No, I know. But there are plenty of widespread contentions to draw from -- Anakin as "Space Messiah", or whatever, is just one of many; and arguably far from one of the main ones.

    I also think it's a bit deluded to imagine inspiring the Hollywood machine to change course, since the notion seems to be predicated on the belief that petty fan annoyance is somehow a valid driver of artistic discourse. It's basically wanting the people in charge of Star Wars to be shallow and spineless and make things according to "mob" desires.


    Yeah. I can't see how it stands out a great deal as something that the makers of the new films absolutely must renounce or avoid. The "messiah" element is a key part of the Star Wars saga, now -- and it cannot, and won't, be undone.
  16. vinsanity Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 28, 2013
    star 3
    That is your opinion, I think the complete opposite.
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  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I only used the "space Messiah" as an example of a specific criticism. Yeah, I hated it, but I don't expect it to disappear either. The same trope showed up in Harry Potter.

    That said, I expect movie makers to behave the same way that any other money-making business behaves, and pay attention to customer feedback.
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  18. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Harry Potter was a franchise I had in mind, yeah. And now Star Wars is with Disney -- a company that specializes in stories with fantastic powers and origins.

    A movie-maker is not a money-making business. Those entities should not be recklessly conflated.

    Unless, again, we're talking Hollywood. Hollywood certainly looks, as one poster aptly put it earlier, at the bottom line and little else. And the PT has definitely strengthened the Star Wars brand. The sale to Disney couldn't have happened without the PT. So I'm not sure where that leaves the idea that "customer feedback" -- that is, fan-ranting about the PT -- is likely to have a big impact. It might, it might not. Don't much care for movie-making by committee, personally.
  19. Ditolus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2005
    star 2
    bad writing, bad direction, bad acting.
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  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yes, we are talking about Hollywood, which as you said, is a money-making business. A movie maker might not be by definition, but does the movie maker want to sell tickets to his or her movies, or does he want to sell the film itself to an art museum.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there seems to be an attitude among some that what the general public might want to see on a movie is beneath them, and it comes across as a "the opinion and desires of a polled majority of ticket buyers shouldn't count, because those ticket buyers are idiots who don't understand art." It comes off as a bit snobbish. And that may be unintentional.

    If an artist should only be bound by inspiration, fine, but the artist should then not care if the film sells tickets. Lucas claimed not to care, said once that he wasn't expecting to break even on ROTS, but then complained about being yelled at.

    I live in a city where approximately 50 movies are playing at any given time. I have choices. And I need to be sold on more than just the Star Wars label. That's just me but I doubt I'm alone there.
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  21. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Artists might be looking to please people or make a viable product -- but they are ultimately trying to please themselves. Lucas struck out with a populist impulse, but he remains quite avant-garde in a lot of respects. In this way, what I'm saying is that it's a case of balance; but that the artist's tastes should ultimately determine the comportment of an art work, not the public's.

    Well, I'm a little bit snobbish. On the other hand, ticket buyers clearly gave the prequel trilogy a big thumbs-up; without necessarily being hardcore fans. This is something a lot of people in certain circles seem to have trouble dealing with. So, I guess, what I'm saying is, there are opinions and there are opinions. Fans have become a little carried away over the years with the presumed privileging of their own views.

    You're also talking like there's one mass lump of views shared by a coherent majority. And I don't think that's really correct. I mean, Star Wars, as a thing, existed before there were actually any fans, and the views of the fanbase today are varied. It depends which people you ask. These movies have touched people in different ways.

    Okay, you've concatenated several things here that don't necessarily go together:

    1) Artists -- most artists -- still want to be successful and not plunge themselves, or the people depending on them, into financial ruin. Being bound by inspiration doesn't mean not caring about sales.

    2) When Lucas claimed not to care, it's the sort of thing that needs taking with a pinch of salt. He likely meant that he didn't feel obligated to worry overtly about some people being thrown over some of his choices. He knows, in making art, even popular art, you sort of have to go your own way ... or what's the point?

    3) Lucas has always been pessimistic where profit margins are concerned. Perhaps it is a defence mechanism: a means of preparing himself for the worst. He has previously said that he follows his father and is quite conservative in some regards.

    4) Being yelled out. This was after approximately one full decade of online/media-driven negativity and a tsunami of verbal abuse. He was basically called a no-good, greedy hack, over and over. And he put the question rhetorically: would YOU be willing to make more movies in the same series after that? Of course, his question also had a sandbagging element to it, as the sale to Disney, with accompanying announcement of the sequel trilogy, was completed the same year.

    I don't go by labels -- not sure if there was an ugly insinuation there.

    On the contrary, I go by form and content. The existing movies have satisfied me because of the mind behind them.

    I am not inherently hostile to more Star Wars movies, but I do lament the lack of independent (and idiosyncratic) spirit that clearly went into the existing ones.

    But only time will tell what we all will think of whatever Disney puts out.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Jul 14, 2014
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I absolutely don't think that's correct, and there are a wide variety of viewpoints on Star Wars, which is why this forum and the OT forum remain alive almost ten years after the release of the last movie.

    I made my points there in response to the insinuation (not by you) that the viewpoints of those who criticize the prequels should not be taken into account by Disney when making the ST. Not because the audience is some sort of monolith.

    Aside from comments/jokes I have made about how often the man changes his mind, comments I think are justified, I have never thought that attacks on his character were OK. In fact, I'm glad this forum banned the use of the term "Luca$", which was pretty common here 10-12 years ago.

    That said...as I think I've mentioned, people who grew up on the OT went into the PT expecting a similar feel, and Lucas decided to give the movies a very different spin in theme/tone as well as ignore a few things he had established in the OT. Just as a minor example, I know that many people expected to see greater development in Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship, and instead what we got in the PT was Anakin acting petulant and the two of them arguing. That's just one example among many.

    To his credit he did rectify that issue with TCW series. But he really should have expected some backlash.

    About you personally, no, but I have gotten the sense from some that I'm supposed to accept everything about the PT because that's what Lucas wanted to do and he owns Star Wars.
  23. Yanksfan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 5
    @anakinfansince1983 --you've had some of the most level-headed posts in this thread. I've really appreciated reading them Just wanted to say that….

    Anyway, I think some people have this misperception when it comes to "OT fans" or "PT bashers" or whatever label you wanna throw on us this week. Just because we may find and criticize flaws in the PT, doesn't mean we're oblivious to the ones in the OT. It's just that, for me, the PT is one giant flaw*, with a few good moments. While the OT is a great trilogy**, with a few flaws. But in no way do I think the OT is perfect.***

    That said, I think it's kinda sad that *anyone* would let someone else's opinion affect their enjoyment of something. If you like it, you like it. Embrace that. You think people don't criticize the OT? They do. But I don't care, and I don't consider them "bashers' either. They're just people with different opinions. I've always been glad to hear that people out there appreciated the PT. Really. It means maybe they are not really as bad as how they appear *to me*. And being a SW fan, that makes me happy. I *do* support the brand, after all.

    *Actually, I'm really mostly referring to the first two films. Episode III was totally decent, IMO.
    **I will concede that ROTJ is actually a *very* flawed movie. I like it, but yeah….*sigh*
    ***ESB is nearly perfect, however. And you can try to knock it off its pedestal all you like, but to me, it will always be the closest thing to a flawless SW film.
    Last edited by Yanksfan, Jul 14, 2014
  24. MOC Yak Face Classic Trilogy and Saga Co-Mod.

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    star 4
    Hear, hear. Each time I go to say something, I discover that you've already said it, better than I was about to, so I don't bother!
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  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    [face_blush] Thanks. You guys are awesome.

    @Yanksfan , we'll just have to disagree on ROTS and ROTJ and revel in Han's perfection in ESB together. :D

    Without differing opinions, this fandom would be a very boring place.
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