PT How is Anakin's turn rushed?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Padmes_love_slave24, Aug 8, 2011.

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  1. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    For as often as I think you're misguided - but brilliant in your analysis - you make this scene work =D= , but to ME it just wasn't executed to its potential.

    If only that scene could be refilmed with you as a director to pull all those nuances.

    Seriously.



  2. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    People's criticism of these films aren't because they are the Prequels! It's because how unrealistic the characters behave and respond to one another in these films!


    Actually, the characters' behavior in the PT has always struck me as being a lot more true to genuine human behavior than what was shown in the OT. I don't know. Perhaps many find the PT characters' ambiguous behavior unflattering.


    It's subtle mind-jackery and I've noticed that some fans seem to want something way more blatant. Exhibit A: the complaints that Anakin must not be too bad off as a slave because he got to live with his mother, and we didn't see Watto beating the crap out of him.

    I see what the problem might be. Is it possible that many of these fans wanted more blatant behavior from Anakin, instead of something more subtle? Perhaps that would explain an earlier post, in which the person complained that Anakin's decision to become Palpatine's apprentice was unconvincing - a complaint that I don't agree with, by the way.
  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Ditto that. I found it extremely disturbing that he killed the children and then went to Padme and said, "I'm alright. I came to make sure you and the baby were safe." As if he had just had a normal day then gotten in a fender-bender on the way home.

    That's one of the reasons I've only watched the Operation Knightfall scenes once.

    Exactly. He was, at least after having his nightmare about her.

    He was obviously still very haunted by what happened to his mother and the actions he took afterwards; TCW movie novelization goes into this quite a bit. I think he had a bit of PTSD from the war as well, and then having nightmares of Padme, similar to the ones he had of Shmi--according to the ROTS novelization, he began refusing to sleep, as sleeping only brought back the visions. He would spend entire nights awake in the Temple, researching ways to stop death. Which is why he wanted Mastery so badly, and access to the archives.

    I'm failing to see how Anakin being "wiped out, confused and vulnerable" is considered a bad thing. His falling to Palpatine's manipulations makes much more sense within that context than it would if he were still confident and happy, as I would say he was immediately after marrying Padme. (Going by the EU for that one.)

    Seriously. Luke is knocking back drinks within an hour or so of finding his guardians' charred skeletons? Leia having a "well, it happens" reaction to Alderaan?

    I find Anakin to be the most human of all the Star Wars characters, with Obi-Wan and Padme close behind him. In the OT, Han is the only one whose reactions make real sense.
  4. QsAssistant Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 2
    [face_laugh] I never thought of it that way! Luke at first was sad about his Aunt and Uncle's death but two scenes later he's in a bar drinking and never mentions the people who raised him again. Leia, who got it the worst out of our heroes in the saga, doesn't even seem sad that her planet, parents, and friends got wiped out in five seconds right in front of her.
    After thinking about it Anakin is the most human character out of the saga, he actually shows emotion.
  5. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Eh, as I've said before, characterization is minimized and sublimated to action. Sure, there is a lot of subtlety that I think the actors slipped in GL's directing radar (to the films' betterment, IMHO), but there's also over-doing it or failing to strike a balance.

    My main criticism of Anakin is not the character he was meant to be (per context, per GL himself) but the way his portrayal was executed by and large (with practically all my criticism coming from AOTC which didn't do Obi-Wan justice either, again IMHO).

    As Anakinfan said, the novel really brings out Anakin's near-emotional breakdown in a way we are not allowed to really immerse ourselves in viewing the movies. In-novel ROTS Anakin is far more complex and conflicted - and GOOD than on-screen, and Obi-Wan less stick-up-his-@** when relating to Anakin than in AoTC.

    Despite my criticisms...I do really like the prequels.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Uncle Owen, can I go to Mos Eisley tonight and do some heavy partying?"
    "Over my dead body."
    "So be it."

    Seriously though, raising Skywalkers turned out to be quite a risky profession. That'll learn ya!
  7. SoonerSean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2007
    star 2
    My main issue with the turn is that it seems sudden because we've just watched Anakin discover that Palpatine is a liar who has schemed all along... he's a Sith Lord and Anakin's very first "father figure" was killed by a Sith Lord. Another Sith Lord lopped of his arm - tried to kill Obi Wan - worked with an assassin to try and kill Padme and yet suddnely... after telling him (Palps) that he'd like to kill him... Anakin mere hours later has not only changed his mind but HELPED the man.

    You can write off that it's because he so desperately wants to save Padme - but even in the instant when he says he'll do whatever is necessary to save her - Palpatine admits he doesn't actually know how to do so and if they work together they can make it happen.

    Now that comes from a guy who has essentially lied to Anakin (and the Republic) from the very start. Why would he be telling the truth now?

    I'd like to have seen Palpatine seduce Anakin more, ala the scene in the opera house, and avoid so much of the "save Padme" stuff. I also question why there's a need for the scene with Anakin drawing his lightsaber and threatening to kill Palpatine so close to when he turns his back on everything to join him. This is also shortly after he apologized to Obi Wan for not being a good Jedi and heard in response what a dear friend he was and how truly great he actually was.

    I agree that the "change" takes place over three movies and the CW series - but the way it was sequenced in ROTS makes it seem rushed. I think in reality - GL didn't move things along fast enough in TPM/AOTC and was honestly rushing to wrap things up come ROTS.
  8. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    However you want to look at it, Anakin's seduction was far more well done than Luke's. Luke was a complete good guy, someone with no history of emotional issues or friendship with Palpatine. According to ROTJ, Luke was on the verge of doing a complete 180 and actually joining that man. Anakin at least had a motivation; with Luke it would've literally been a flip flop. Yet people seem to accept that without question. But that's the power of the Dark Side, which is poisonous and transformative. I fully believe that it's a metaphor hate and anger, which have led seemingly normal people to do extremely evil and inhumane things in real life.

    Also, it's established in the movies that relationship between Sith masters and apprentices is one of convenience. Vader talks about his intention to betray Palpatine in TESB, and Dooku does the same in AOTC. In ROTS, Anakin's #1 priority is to pursue the Dark Side's potential power to save Padme. But his deep seated desire to be a great hero and fix the galaxy as he sees fit is also a part of it. On Mustafar, he refers to the galaxy as "my new empire" and shows that his desire to destroy Palpatine existed very early in his life as a Sith.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Doesn't "I don't know how to do it" sound like the truth by that point? What more could Palpatine have said - that the power is impossible to achieve, that it doesn't even exist? There's really no way he could know that to be the case, though. Searching for a lost dark side ability is just the kind of thing a Sith type of character would tend to be involved in. In the EU we learn that Palpatine knows the power does exist.
  10. JimRaynor55 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2005
    star 3
    Yeah, Palpatine told him that Plagueis knew the power, not he himself. He dangled the Dark Side in front of Anakin as something with hidden potential for far greater power. Anakin already lived his life as a Jedi, and knew what they were capable of. He was desperate, and willing to try anything new.
  11. Viron Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Before I get into the topic at hand here, I want to establish I'm a pretty layed back movie viewer. I don't get super bugged by a plot hole or really try to read into little things like some do. I enjoy movies, especially these movies, for what they are.

    I have to say, the only thing that has really bugged me over time in the whole saga is Anakin's turn. I understand what he went through, I understand the manipulation tactics by Palpatine but I don't find myself symptomatic to him after it's all said and done.

    When the prequels were announced I hoped for some closure on the issue because I wanted to see what turned the hero into one of the most symbolic villains of all time. At the end of this trilogy I was even more offput than before. I don't sympathize with Anakin's decisions in this prequel at all. I was expecting him to be pushed into a corner where he had no choice or alternative path for his decisions when transitioning into Vader. What I got instead was plain stupidity on Anakin's part. I found some of the choices on his part to be absolutely unbelievable. It doesn't make sense to me. The will of Obi-Wan or literally any other Jedi when fighting evil seems to be 10 times stronger in comparison to Anakin. He was so easily manipulated and turned. Most importantly I don't feel this fits into the Vader of the later movies.

    What did you get from the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader? Was it handled properly in your opinion? Did his transition into Vader give you closure or further complicate things in your opinion?

    I'd love to read what you guys think.
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  12. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    it happened far too quickly

    when it boils down to it, it happened like this

    "so, i'm having nightmares, I can't lose you"

    "i'm not the Jedi i should be, i want more"

    "you're a sith lord? you **** i'm going to turn you over to the council"

    "what have I done???"

    "yeah sure i'll join, you want me to do..what???? ok fair do's, i'll go to the temple right now, clone troopers? oh ok"

    ROTS was too rushed and too confused with itself to be taken as a great film TBH

    it need to be in 2 parts

    with one film dealing soley on Anakin's seduction to the dark

    and the other to please the action fans
    Last edited by Sistros, Feb 21, 2013
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  13. Viron Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2013
    You start ROTS like okay, this is where it happens. I better prepare myself. And suddenly you're like wait what? That's it? He's Vader now?

    It took one story and conversation from Palpatine for Anakin to go with everything. He's standing there with Obi-Wan in the same room, Dooku defeated and Palpatine goes kill him like you would expect. "Uhm..okay." Just like that. Done deal.

    Then we get into the Sidious reveal scene. Not only is the reasoning for him attacking Windu messed up in the first place, when Sidious does finish him off there's no remorse at all. No "what have I done" type of attitude is shown at all. Sidious gets up. Anakin is now Vader and he's off to rid the world of the Jedi.

    It was wtf.
    Last edited by Viron, Feb 21, 2013
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  14. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    the problem I think is there was too much things going on,

    I can't stress enough that ROTS is the film that doesn't slow down,

    to me it doesn't have the pacing of a star wars film, it's got the pacing of Transformers film with too many characters,


    I don't know what I expected from ROTS, but I wasn't expecting what I got,

    I suppose I EXPECTED a bit more drama, a bit more heartache, brother against brother

    perhaps I expected a bit too much, I dunno,

    but this was the turning point of the whole saga:

    the fall of Anakin Skywalker happened far too fast..

    in fact if i was in the cinema and popped out to the toilet during the bit he is named Vader i'd come back thinking what the shenanigans had gone on.
  15. Samnz Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    I think his turn works fine and is well structered.

    It all begins when he starts to have visions about his wife's death and I think what's important to notice here is that - for Anakin - these visions weren't dreams or possibilities but they were a real future because he experienced the very same thing a few years ago with his mother.
    Let's take a look back: In AOTC he was asked by the Jedi to ignore his dreams and he followed that advice as long as he could and that ultimately led to his mother's death. The Jedi didn't allow him to save his mother. Yet in ROTS he still asks Yoda for help but all the grand Jedi Master could offer him was the same old story: you have to let go.

    Obviously Anakin wasn't capable of doing that and then Palpatine offered a solution. That when he had to make a choice and I think that "emotional thought process" was briilliantly illustrated in the Jedi Council (ruminations scene). He decided to put Padmé's life above many others and acted egoistically.

    I don't know what people expected exactly, especially given the idealized, perfect version of the Jedi many wanted to see (how could you betray perfection?).
    I mean it's supposed to feel wrong for us. We're not supposed to think "Oh, I would do the same." anymore.
    You said you wanted to see him in a situation where he didn't have "a choice or alternate path" - but what's interesting about that?
    --> "He turned bad but that wasn't his fault. Bad luck." - What kind of message is that? Life is all about destiny or coincidence (however you want to call it)? We are not responsible for our own actions?
    I wouldn't have liked that.

    Additionally, what makes Anakin's turn extra-nice for me is the contrast in created to ROTJ.
    In ROTS he tried to save Padmé for selfish reasons - "I can't live without her" - he wanted to save her life, sure, but I think he even more didn't want to lose her.
    In ROTJ, however, he selflessly saved Luke although he knew he would die because of that. That borught him back to the light and "redeemend" him.
    It's a beatiful circle.
    Last edited by Samnz, Feb 22, 2013
  16. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    I've been thinking about that one for a while and I almost wonder whether Anakin shouldn't have been more evil right from the start of the film. Perhaps he should have been eager to kill Dooku. Perhaps there should have been more friction between Anakin and Obi-Wan right from the start. Of course he would have to become more evil throughout the film otherwise there wouldn't be much 'fall' in fall to the dark side. I'm aware that it would probably make the ending less tragic but I also think it would make the film far more believable to show that Anakin's fall to the dark side was already a process well on its way to completion.
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The novelization tended to emphasise Anakin's dark side, pre-turn. Particularly in his interactions with Padme, and his inner monologue.
    SithStarSlayer likes this.
  18. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    This will remain open as long as it stays the course...
    or until I can find the "Was Anakin's turn, rushed" thread.

    EDIT:
    Merged. -Sx3
    Last edited by SithStarSlayer, Feb 25, 2013
  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The structure of the trilogy is a mess, they waste so much time that by the time they get to EP III there was no way for it not to be rushed. The fault is in the first two movies.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Feb 22, 2013
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  20. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Indeed, that's my problem. I've never felt anything for the character but repulsion. I can't empathize with him, and he doesn't have my sympathy.

    But maybe that's the point? We're supposed to just be disgusted by the guy? Was he ever supposed to be "the hero", the protagonist? It is kinda genius to show a trilogy from the antagonist's point of view, as dumb as that view was, but I don't think that was really Lucas' intention. I think he wanted us to think of Anakin as "tragic", which I don't agree with at all.

    I don't "like" Anakin, I don't enjoy him as a character, I don't get any entertainment of any kind when he's on screen, not even the bizarre catharsis that a tragedy often inspires. Anakin has a terrible personality, he's an idiot, he's not funny, he's emo and he just doesn't possess a single redeeming quality in the movies. I would count his loyalty as a quality, but he turns on his family and assists in their eradication. Anakin doesn't even earn any "cool" points for being.....well, cool. He doesn't do much ass kicking*, much "winning", he doesn't have many cool guy lines and he doesn't have a winning smile**. Lucas really did a great job in creating a character that has no positive traits, that is absolutely irredeemable.

    I love OT Vader and I'm always entertained by him, I'm intimidated by his rage, amused by his ruthlessness, awed by his power and in the end I feel sorry for him and I am overjoyed to see the good in him burst forth to snatch up evil and toss it aside despite knowing it will cost him his life. That's not even counting the powerful voice, the stunning visual appeal and my own personal empathy for his breathing problem.

    *Anakin does win the podrace, which I give him credit for. He does win the space battle over Naboo, which I DO NOT give him credit for, thanks to Lucas having him win via button mashing. He does dominate Dooku in their rematch, which I give him credit for. His other "wins" are of the despicable variety, slaughtering Tuskens and younglings.

    **He does have a totally creepy smile, though.
  21. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Pretty much this. It was a crazy idea to have a kid in the first film as they would then have to change the actor (and the character too) in the next,

    Compare this to Luke's arc which blends seamlessly, in the first he is idealistic but niave farm boy with a yearning for adventure and to escape his situation. In ESB he battle scarred combat vet starting his Jedi training, yet with anger issues. In RTJ he is a powerful Jedi who learns to over come his anger issues and is mature enough to know what he has to do.
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I only have a minute so this is the quick version:

    I was very disappointed at how gullible he was. A simple, "Hey, wait a damn minute" when Palpatine started talking about stopping death, would have gone a long way in my book, especially when he ordered Anakin to conduct Operation Knightfall. (That stops death...how exactly?). The killing younglings and choking Padme was absolutely ridiculous as I see it.

    But I didn't want to see Anakin backed into a corner by anything other than his own desperation; he needed to always have a choice about falling to the Dark Side. So that part worked. I did sympathize with his intense fear and spiral into insanity but yes, I did find him stupid.
  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It's like some of the idea were good, but they don't do a concise job getting the point across. Anakin as a slave as a child was a good idea, but they could have gotten that idea across much faster. Early on in the first movie, not even the first act.
  24. Viron Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2013
    In the classic trilogy it was easier to empathize with Vader's tragedy because the details of what pushed him to the dark side were still a mystery. There wasn't one point in this movie where I thought to myself, man, Anakin had no other choice but to do that. His decisions were based far too much on his stupidity rather than him being really manipulated.

    I guess at the end of the day what it really comes down to is me expecting the legendary Anakin Skywalker to be smarter than to fall so easily to simple tricks. Vader in the later series is always one step ahead and that's what makes him so dangerous. In this film he is manipulated by Palpatine with little ease and absolutely zero common sense taken into account. Being told lies and taking them for what they are with no contemplation at all. Even when he kills Windu no regret, remorse or even some sort of struggle in his mind is shown at all. He's just suddenly Vader and accepts anything his new master will tell him to do without question. He suddenly has no attachment to the Jedi or any friend around him in the blink of eye.
    Last edited by Viron, Feb 22, 2013
  25. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I generally have a hard time believing that the Vader we see in the OT is the same guy we see in the PT. The two trilogies really don't match up well
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