PT How is Anakin's turn rushed?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Padmes_love_slave24, Aug 8, 2011.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The truth is always a great "simple trick".
  2. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
    I've come to accept and enjoy the prequel's for what they are, but I (like many) do agree that Anakin's fall was pretty clunky.

    It would have been cool if Anakin's fall was more like this guy's:

    [IMG]

    It's hard not to sympathize in the begining, but eventually the guy is just appalling (and yet there's a part of us that still roots for him).
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    One is very well written, the other is not.

    Breaking Bad is one of the best things on TV.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Feb 22, 2013
  4. Zane the Reaper Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 5, 2012
    star 1
  5. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    When Palpatine says to him that he knows they can discover the secret, I was expecting Anakin to go "hang on, didnt you say you already have the secret, hmm something's not right here!" Instead he just goes along with it.

    I much prefer the original version, where he turns because he is opposing the Jedi coup and what he see's as his duty to the Republic, rather than simply because he had a bad dream about Padme, which Palpatine tells him he can fix.
  6. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

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    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    I must have missed this earlier scene you speak of, where Palpatine tells Anakin he already has the secret.


    Anakin turns for both reasons (incidentally both are self-fulfilling prophesies in different meanings of the term). Anyway, he doesn't "have a bad dream about Padme," he has a series of a prophetic visions of Padme dying. Contrast to Luke: Luke risks his life, his commitment to becoming a Jedi, becoming "an agent of evil," and "what Han and Leia are fighting for" because he had a prophetic vision of them in pain.
    Last edited by Count Yubnub, Feb 22, 2013
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  7. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Curiously, I've read others complain that Anakin was written as having no choice.


    Such as?
  8. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    "He taught his apprentice (himself) everything he knew"
    "I have the power to save the ones you love" and there are a few others which I can't remember off the top of my head but basically its contradicted the second he says he knows they can discover the secret . The implication from all the others is that he already knew the secret.

    To be fair to Anakin, the Jedi were complete chumps also, so he was not alone in that regard.
    Last edited by fett 4, Feb 22, 2013
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  9. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Ah. And where did Palpatine tell Anakin that he was said apprentice?


    And he does have that power; he can teach Anakin the ways of the dark side, which is Anakin's only way to "save his wife from certain death." Ergo, not contradictory.


    I await with bated breath.


    No, not contradicted. Not in the information that Anakin has.
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  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    In the novel, rather than the movie.
  11. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    You do realize this is a matter of opinion? In this case, we're talking about what is "true", and of course in this case that is dependent on point of view, so what is and what isn't contradictory is also dependent on point of view.

    In my opinion, saying you have the power to do something and promising it to someone, while not having that power at the moment, is misleading, it's false advertisement. Palpatine is selling something he may not have.

    I know the semantics of saying that the power of the dark side is that power, but that's only potential and Anakin wanted a specific power at that moment, and Sidious apparently didn't have it. The dark side may lead to that power, or more critically, it may not.

    I'd like to hope that Anakin wasn't selling his soul based on a chance to save Padme, and I think Anakin really was under the impression that Palpatine really could do it at the time. The look on Anakin's face once Palpatine admits that he does not have that power at the moment may support that impression. If Anakin was under that particular impression, he should have a legitimate reason to feel like he got swindled, no? But hey, it's Anakin, he might have sold his soul based on a chance to save Padme, anyway.

    Now, of course you can absolve Palpatine by saying he didn't technically lie because what he said was true from a certain point of view, it certainly wasn't forthcoming. But hey, I guess if people can defend Kenobi's "point of view", any point of view can be defended. I really don't see the point of defending Palpatine in this situation, since him being the Devil and selling Anakin a bill of goods absolutely adheres to his character, so I'm not sure why anyone would want to deny it.

    While Palpatine certainly wouldn't want to admit to something that hurts his sales pitch, this discussion has never been about Palpatine, it's always been about Anakin and his point of view.

    You don't see my point of view here? You don't think this is a legitimate interpretation? Even if you disagree with it, can't you at least show it a little bit of respect?

    I'm really tired of people denying this point of view with incredulity as if it were ridiculous, it's such a petty root of a lot of hostile divisiveness among the fanbase in this very forum.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Feb 22, 2013
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  12. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Basically this.

    Anakin turns in no small part because he opposes the Jedi coup. This is partially for his own selfish reasons (ie. preventing Mace from killing Palpatine, so that he can eventually extract the information about cheating death from him), but it's also the culmination of his long-standing opposition to Mace and the Jedi Council, which is partially political/ideological in nature. He says this repeatedly in the film.

    A common point of contention is why he kills the Jedi younglings so quickly after turning. However, Order 66 is in effect and while he may still have a revulsion towards killing Jedi younglings, he is effectively an appendage of the 501st Legion at this point. He can't exactly refuse now that he has sided with Palpatine and the clone troopers against the Jedi Order and while they execute Order 66. Even after murdering the CIS leaders, he still has a shred of remorse. Somehow he thinks that overthrowing Palpatine would atone for all his misdeeds.
    Last edited by QuangoFett, Feb 22, 2013
  13. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    You don't see my point of view here? You don't think this is a legitimate interpretation? Even if you disagree with it, can't you at least show it a little bit of respect?

    I'm really tired of people denying this point of view with incredulity as if it were ridiculous, it's such a petty root of a lot of hostile divisiveness among the fanbase in this very forum.

    ---

    you will find that many of the truths we cling to depend on our own point of view ;)
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  14. CloneTrooperFox Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 1
    This conversation seems very hostile. I think I am gonna stay out of this one....
  15. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Old Movies and Saga

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 8
    Yeah, he could. He could have gone back to Padme and said, "We've got to get the hell out of here now." There were places all over the Outer Rim that he could have hidden, in fact, in the OT, the Rebellion based itself in the Outer Rim because Palpatine controlled the Core.

    Or he could have not gone ape**** over a vision and instead used a shred of rational ****ing thought: What are some common reasons that women die in childbirth and how can I best prevent those reasons from happening? What does her medical droid say about her health? If she was on an asteroid during my dream, can I keep her near a better medical facility?

    Or better yet..."maybe if I don't choke her, she won't die".

    I love the dude but I spent most of ROTS wanting to slap the hell out of him.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Feb 22, 2013
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  16. Darth Chiznuk Dark Lord of the New Films Forums

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    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    For the most part I believe it was masterfully done but I also agree with alot of what Anakinfan has to say. Watching the film I just want to shake him and say wake up you damn fool! There are some many moments when if he had just took a moment to think he could have saved himself and it is such a tragedy that he doesn't. However, there are also many moments when I sympathize with him and when I truly like him. IMO he is loyal to a fault, he's naive, he's passionate and yes even noble. His fall gets me every time and it makes ROTS so hard to watch. He's a good person with many faults and that is what makes him so interesting to me and what makes his fall believable for me.
    Last edited by Darth Chiznuk, Feb 22, 2013
  17. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Alot of good points already made. I think it it is important to note this bit of dialogue, which to me is important in understanding why he went so far as to murder the younglings. I am refering to when Sidious tells Vader immediately after he baptizes him as a sith. He tells him to go to the jedi temple and kill all of the jedi and also go to Mustaphar and wipe out all of the seperatist leaders. The key bit of dialogue is after he tells him to do these killing deeds at the temple and on Mustaphar, he says "only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme." If Anakin indeed turned and pledged himself to Palpatine to gain the power needed to save her from death, then why WOULDN'T he do these things to attain that power if indeed that is what he was promised? It only makes sense to me.

    Also, to the person who said they felt Anakin should have had no choice but to turn. Sorry. No way. The whole point of the story of a person giving into temptation and seduction is the choices he makes when the apple in dangled in front of his face and the consequences of those choices.
    Last edited by Luukeskywalker, Feb 23, 2013
  18. CloneTrooperFox Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 1
    Probably the strongest statement i have heard. Good points. Very good points.
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  19. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones should have been put into one film, limiting young baby pod racing Anakins screen time focusing more on the older Anakin with the next two completely focusing on Anakins turn to the dark side and we could have seen him progress, or in this case digress, as we Saw Luke change over the first three films. His turn shouldn't have centered around a dry love story either, or, if it just had to, at least make the love story something we would all fight for- Shakespeare comes to mind and no Mr. Keven Smith Lucas didn't tap into Hamlet or Othello - Anakin was no Romeo either. I also think Haden wasn't right for the role unless of course Lucas was determined to paint Vader out to be gullible, weak and rather effeminate in the way he speaks and carries himself (even outside of the script). I know this sounds chauvinistic but comparing Vader to Haden/Anakin is a rough thought experiment for me. When I saw Vader yelling "Nooooooooo" at the end of ROTS, especially after the weak transition, it forever ruined the iconic villain in my eyes. I think doing the Phantom Menace is what tied Lucas' hands artistically. He tied his own hands by pandering to children which in turn set the stage for the limited amount of time to focus on Anakins transition. Hell, I would have even started the whole prequel series with an older Anakin. An actor in his mid 20's for The Phantom Menace. Would've brought in other writers/directors/producers as was the case with the OT. That alone would've ironed out a lot of the problems with the prequels.
    Last edited by Darth kRud, Feb 23, 2013
  20. PiettsHat Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Anakin's turn is, in my opinion, one of the most brilliant aspects of the Saga in that I can see the root of it stretching all the way back to TPM and Anakin's actions, while horrific, make sense within the context of the film. I think Anakin's turn primarily centers around the notion of selfishness and the need for control -- with control being established in TPM while selfishness was emphasized more strongly in AOTC.

    TPM essentially sets Anakin up as someone who grew up with very little control in his life and who entered a world that left him very isolated and with few allies. Thus, this sort of environment turned him into a person who despised not being in control of his own life -- it was every man for himself where your value was determined by your skills and power. There's a lot of great lines in TPM regarding this, such as how Anakin notes to his mother that the biggest problem in the universe is that no one helps each other and that he wouldn't have lasted so long if he weren't so good at fixing things. Couple this with the Jedi's initial rejection of him and the loss of support of his mother, and I think it's clear where Anakin's personality develops into one that is fixated on being in charge of his life.

    AOTC then, is about selfishness and Anakin wanting power -- mainly to keep the people he cares about in his life. I think his mother's death, especially, demonstrates how he can't accept being separated from those he loves and he's not willing to acknowledge that, in life, you can't always get what you want nor save everyone.

    ROTS, then, is rather brilliant in that it sets up a perfect storm in which Anakin falls -- he is increasingly isolated from the Jedi and Obi-Wan as tensions rise between the Council and Palpatine, he can't rely on Padmé for emotional support because her life is threatened and that threat works as an emotional trigger to "take the plunge" as it were, he is offered the opportunity to be in charge, to ensure that he can make things the way he wants them to be (which is something he desperately desires), and he is also given a framework in which his actions, however terrible, can be achieved "for the greater good" -- ending the war and forming the Empire.

    A lot of people don't understand how Anakin could possibly kill the younglings and think the fall is too quick but I think it works better if it is a precipitous fall. Anakin is essentially at the end of his emotional rope when he kneels before Palpatine -- having implicated himself in Mace Windu's murder and seeing no other option to saving Padmé -- but, significantly, that's not all there is to it. Palpatine offers Anakin a way to rationalize his actions -- "bring peace to the Empire." By killing the Jedi, Anakin can gain access to the Separatists, deactivate the droids, and end the war. So even though he may have killed children, he can tell himself that, in the long run, he's saving more lives. Anakin knows deep down that what he's done is wrong and evil, but he is able to go through with it by lying to himself -- by deluding himself that he has brought peace and his actions will make the galaxy better. Note how many times he emphasizes this in the films -- "I'm going there to end this war," "I have brought peace to the Republic," "I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new empire," etc.

    At the same time, though, I think the murder of the children is so poignant and powerful because it essentially traps him. He has to continue believing in his ideology because otherwise he would have killed them for nothing. It mentally coerces him into buying into his own lies just to preserve his own fragile sanity. Had he not killed them, I think Padmé and Obi-Wan would have likely been able to talk him out of what he had done, to bring him back to the Light. But given the atrocities he's committed, he desperately needs to believe that the Empire was worth it.

    Having it all occur within a short time frame further reinforces this because Anakin is forced to make decisions quickly and without time to pause and reflect. The first time he has this opportunity -- a calm moment in which there are no more orders to carry out and he is left but with his thoughts -- he cries alone on the balcony of Mustafar at what he's done.
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  21. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    Time after time here, I find myself somewhere between the two "poles". There are elements of Anakin's "fall" that, for me, don't QUITE hit the mark. But at the same time, there are elements - and for me, I would say MANY - that DO hit the mark. So I don't fall neatly into either camp. But I think the Thread-starter here isn't simply asking "Was Anakin's fall rushed", IMHO. It seems to me that he is also asking whether, if "all" he feels is revulsion when it comes to Anakin, that is a failing of the Prequels, or if he is SUPPOSED to feel revulsion.

    I think Anakin is - by design? - something akin to the idea of the "tragic hero" from Shakespearean tradition. In my much younger days, I had trouble with the term. It wasn't just that I thought "hero = good guy"... I kind of got that hero, in this context, could also mean "protagonist" or "main character". It's that some of Shakespeare's heroes seemed less like "basically good guys with maybe one or two major tragic flaws" and more like "basically bad guys who have some good in them".

    For me, Anakin's fall did mostly work, and for me, he is a "tragic hero", a guy with a lot of good in him, who honestly has a lot of good impulses, but who has enough bad/dangerous/troubling impulses in him, so that he does "fall". For example, when Anakin gives his much maligned talk about the ineffciencies of democracy, I don't think that is meant to be as simple as "I should be in charge". I think it is meant to show that Anakin is sincerely frustrated that so much could be done to better the lives of many, but it all gets bogged down in the messy, inefficient process of compromise, discussion and politics. And that CAN be a dangerous outlook, because it sure CAN lead to dictatorship real quickly - even if the dictator at some point believes he is a benign one (not that Sidious ever did, IMHO).

    In addition to that, I think we all have discussed Anakin's terror over loss, and death. Having lost his mother, he will do ANYTHING to spare himself the pain of Padme's impending (maybe) death. And I think the movies present it that way, although some prefer to see it as Anakin being determined to "save Padme". I realize HE sees it that way, and probably believes it, but I would argue that what Anakin really is fighting for is the chance to spare HIMSELF the pain of losing Padme. IT is, deep down, a selfish impulse. It is all about ANAKIN, not Padme. When Anakin tells Padme he is doing this all for her, how does she react? With understandable horror. When Anakin all but says "Hey, don't worry, you aren't going to die, even if I have to end galactic democracy, betray the Jedi, murder a bunch of kids, etc, to do it", it becomes pretty clear that this isn't really about the lengths to which Anakin will go to "save" Padme, for her sake, but it is about the lengths to which Anakin will go to save HIMSELF from the unbearable pain he would suffer at her loss.

    Was his fall "perfect"? Nah. But I think part of that is a simple function of time. Three movies may seem like a lot, but there is a LOT that has to happen in those three movies. IMHO, they do a pretty good job of laying out Anakin's fall. And I don't know that feeling revulsion at the end of ROTS is a bad thing, necessarily. I have to confess that I have never seen Vader the same way after the Prequels - he became, for me, a much more human character, but that also made him a much more disturbing one. That is weird, I know - he did help blow up an entire PLANET in ANH, after all..but that seemed rather comic-bookish/Ming the Merciless "evil fun", versus the much more real, personal, terrible deeds in ROTS.
  22. Eggrert Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 1
    I tend to take a moderate approach to this; I don't think it would have been satisfying to have Anakin be completely manipulated, but I agree that he basically "falls" due his own stupidity and irrationality.

    What I've never understood is why Lucas didn't make more of an issue out of Anakin's background as a slave. Before the prequels came out, I always had the impression that Vader turned out of a pure lust for power, and with Episode 1, I thought Lucas provided an excellent reason for Anakin's turn. Rather than spending Episode II whining about Obi-Wan, he could have told anyone who would listen (Padme, Obi-Wan) that he wanted to free the slaves, not just his mother, not just the slaves on Tattooine, but all of the slaves across the galaxy. Not only would this have made him a more noble figure (and not an immature adolescent), it would have provided an excellent reason for his turn.

    Fast forward to Episode III. Anakin's been denied the rank of master, and I can imagine a scene where he tries to convince the council to launch a mission to free slaves on Tattooine (or some other planet) and gets shot down. Mace might say something along the lines of, "This is a dangerous time for the Republic, young Skywalker. Slaves on an outlander planet aren't our concern." Not only would this show how truly corrupt and soulless the Jedi order had become, it would allow Palpatine to offer Anakin some genuine power. Suddenly Anakin would want power not to save his wife, but to be able to free the slaves. And then, of course, as with any classical tragedy, he would go off-course...maybe he joins with Palpatine, the Jedi try to take control of a Senate they feel is growing too powerful, and then he actually has a "reason" to help kill the Jedi. Yes, he's turned to the dark side, but he sees himself using this extraordinary power to free the slaves, help improve the quality of life across the galaxy, etc.

    This would be a more nuanced "turn," IMO, and it would also allow the character to be "slowly twisted" by the dark side.
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  23. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    Eggert -

    I like a lot of what you say, but have to respectfully take issue with the idea that, in refusing to launch a series of military strikes to free slaves everywhere, or even on Tatooine, the Jedi would be illustrating "how truly corrupt and soulless the Jedi order had become". To me, no offense, this is another example of how, with some folks, the Jedi can't win for losing. At times, it seems like half the people on here bash the Jedi for becoming "too" involved in politics, in military matters, in running things (versus sticking to more spiritual pursuits) and half the people bash them for not doing X, Y or Z, even if X, Y, or Z would have meant the Jedi were getting MORE embroiled in political and military matters, were indeed expanding their own power, and/or casting aside any democratically imposed restraints.

    As I understand it, Tatooine, at the time of TPM, was not a part of the republic (yes)? It was presented a lot like a frontier-town, with lots of criminality, smuggling, "slavers", etc. It was never made clear that slavery was illegal on Tatooine (for that matter, it wasn't even made clear what slavery MEANT on Tatooine - was it akin to slavery in America's old south, or was it like slavery in ancient Greece or Rome, or was it akin to "indentured servitude", etc?). For the Jedi to simply decide to launch a military mission to battle slavery across political boundaries might be seen as a dangerously arrogant over-reach. Would they be representing the Republic on this crusade, or would they be acting as an "above the law" military force, imposing their will where-ever they see fit? When Qui-Gonn, for example, says he didn't come to Tatooine to free slaves, I never got the impression that he agreed with slavery, or found the institution acceptable. I took it that he didn't see himself as being in a position to swoop in and right every wrong he encountered, by his lights, on a planet that was outside the Republic. To me, that was a micro-example of the much larger issue you raise.

    On the other hand, your scenario does present an interesting situation, even without that interpretation. I could see Anakin being frustrated by the Jedi's refusal to go on such a crusade, even if their refusal was perhaps understandable from a broader perspective. IMHO.
    Last edited by SHAD0W-JEDI, Feb 24, 2013
  24. Eggrert Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 1
    Well, I'm not saying that the Jedi should have dropped everything and gone around freeing slaves; I'm just saying that they seemed a bit more concerned with the Republic and securing their own position as "guardians of the galaxy." The PT as it is touches on this, but I don't think we ever get a really solid reason for Anakin turning against the Jedi. Given that we've seen him whining over a bunch of silly things in AOTC, his frustration with the Jedi in ROTS isn't as meaningful as it could have been (of course, imo).

    I think the moral ambiguity you mentioned is precisely why it would make for a good reason for Anakin's turn. We could be sympathetic to both sides, and it wouldn't be until Anakin went around killing innocent people (or whatever he ends up doing) that we'd say, "Oh, crap, he made the wrong decision!"

    Even if slavery was legal on Tatooine, it wouldn't make it morally right (another interesting wrinkle that could have been added to the films). Also, the Jedi wouldn't necessarily have to use military force in order to free the slaves.

    The impression I always got from the OT was that the Jedi were like a bunch of monks, going around righting injustices without seeking glory or recognition for their accomplishments. Doing the "right thing" was more important to them than politics or anything like that. And that's why I think you can argue that Qui-Gon was the only true Jedi in the PT (despite several very human flaws), and if it was Qui-Gon's ideal that Anakin strove for, it would be an excellent means of making the character sympathetic AND put him at odds with the Jedi (including Obi-Wan, who, throughout the PT, tends to toe the party-line; it's not until ANH that he seems to become more of a maverick).
    Last edited by Eggrert, Feb 24, 2013
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  25. Padmes_love_slave24 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2003
    star 3
    I am glad that some people get it that Anakin's turn was out of pure desperation and in pure desperation we make decisions that don't make much sense!
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